Author Topic: Republic compared to Democracy (Read 9228 times)

Silver Bullet · « **on:** July 19, 2009, 10:37:04 PM »

This is nicely done. Sorry if it's already been posted, I didn't find it with a quick search.

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

I particularly like their use of a political spectrum consisting of totalitarianism at one end and anarchy at the other. Much better than the liberalMedia's left-right = communist-fascist.

Not too deep, but informative.

Standing Wolf · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2009, 10:56:35 PM »

Quote

I particularly like their use of a political spectrum consisting of totalitarianism at one end and anarchy at the other.

Yep.

I'm not sure dismissing one-man rule was intellectually legitimate, though I'll concede the dictatorships have been replaced with oligarchies in short order.

That aside, I'm afraid Americans would rather have television and beer than freedom.

RocketMan · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:12:37 AM »

Quote from: Standing Wolf on July 19, 2009, 10:56:35 PM

That aside, I'm afraid Americans would rather have television and beer than freedom.

Sadly, to many Americans, television and beer is freedom. They believe that, if they have the goodies, they are free.

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:00:30 PM »

Quote from: Standing Wolf on July 19, 2009, 10:56:35 PM

Yep.

I'm not sure dismissing one-man rule was intellectually legitimate, though I'll concede the dictatorships have been replaced with oligarchies in short order.

That aside, I'm afraid Americans would rather have television and beer than freedom.

Have faith. It's been so long in America since anyone hasn't had something resembling basic freedom that we all take it for granted. We assume that the freedoms we have are automatic and natural, and we have no real conception of what it would be like without them.

Once our freedoms are gone, you may find that those folks who wanted nothing more than beer and tv, suddenly want nothing more than their freedom back. If for no other reason than so they can go back to drinking beer and watching tv.

Physics · « **Reply #4 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:03:03 PM »

Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner on July 20, 2009, 01:00:30 PM

Have faith. It's been so long in America since anyone hasn't had something resembling basic freedom that we all take it for granted. We assume that the freedoms we have are automatic and natural, and we have no real conception of what it would be like without them.

Once our freedoms are gone, you may find that those folks who wanted nothing more than beer and tv, suddenly want nothing more than their freedom back. If for no other reason than so they can go back to drinking beer and watching tv.

You ever tried to take beer away from one of them folks? Or TV for that matter? Them's fightin words.

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #5 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:05:36 PM »

Quote from: Physics on July 20, 2009, 01:03:03 PM

You ever tried to take beer away from one of them folks? Or TV for that matter? Them's fightin words.

My thoughts exactly. Wait and see what happens when the beer-and-tv-crowd can't have their beer and tv because of an overbearing government.

De Selby · « **Reply #6 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:54:15 PM »

Democracy is the form of government that conservatives and liberals demand when they are confident that the majority supports their views.

A republic is the form of government that conservatives and liberals demand when they are confident that the majority does not support their views.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:59:45 PM »

Quote

A republic is the form of government that conservatives and liberals demand when they are confident that the majority does not support their views.

So you do not actually have an argument except to criticise others' ostensible motives?

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:42:50 PM »

He's right, though.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:47:10 PM »

Quote from: fistful on July 20, 2009, 10:42:50 PM

He's right, though.

He is. But the fact of the matter is, Republics are a good thing, no matter what motives politicians have about endorsing them.

De Selby · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:56:54 PM »

Quote from: MicroBalrog on July 20, 2009, 10:47:10 PM

He is. But the fact of the matter is, Republics are a good thing, no matter what motives politicians have about endorsing them.

It's important to be wary of these discussions in a republic, because republics have a mix of institutions. You can have spectacularly bad governance in a republic as a result of special interest driven demands for "constitutional integrity" or "democratic process."

longeyes · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2009, 11:56:37 PM »

What matters is a Constitutional Republic, with an enlightened Constitution. You know, the kind of country we used to have.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:08:26 AM »

Quote from: shootinstudent on July 20, 2009, 10:56:54 PM

You can have spectacularly bad governance in a republic as a result of special interest driven demands for "constitutional integrity" or "democratic process."

My turn. "Special interest" is what conservatives and liberals call any interest group they disagree with.

De Selby · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:29:46 AM »

Quote from: fistful on July 21, 2009, 12:08:26 AM

My turn. "Special interest" is what conservatives and liberals call any interest group they disagree with.

Did you have an argument there, or are you just criticizing the ostensible motives of others? :)

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:45:20 AM »

Quote

You can have spectacularly bad governance in a republic as a result of special interest driven demands for "constitutional integrity" or "democratic process."

"Bad governance" is just a word for "me not getting what I want".

De Selby · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:53:51 AM »

Quote from: MicroBalrog on July 21, 2009, 12:45:20 AM

"Bad governance" is just a word for "me not getting what I want".

Now this I disagree on - bad governance is that which may give in to your desires today, but as a result becomes unpalatable or unpredictable tomorrow. It constitutes favoring discrete results over sound process.

longeyes · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:27:37 AM »

Bad governance is different from bad citizenship. Bad governance is tyrannical, unrepresentative governance. That doesn't mean that the populace, untyrannized over, has a clue; quite often they don't. Bad citiizenship is wish fulfillment and magical thinking replacing reason and sober civic virtue. Unfortunately we appear to be witnessing a perfect storm of both bad governance and bad citizenship in America.

freakazoid · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2009, 12:31:10 PM »

Quote

My thoughts exactly. Wait and see what happens when the beer-and-tv-crowd can't have their beer and tv because of an overbearing government.

Sometimes I wonder if we will ever reach the tipping point of the government reaching the point where people become fed up with how the government is running things that they will take action. It seems like the government will get close to the edge but not go over the line, at least not fast enough to cause people to realize what is going on, frog in a pot.

longeyes · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:11:35 PM »

There will be a lot of boiled frogs. But some, trust me, will jump out of the pot.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:17:41 PM »

So it's those frogs that will start the Revolution/Civil War/Great Insurrection that I'm trying desperately to mark on my calendar?

makattak · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:19:54 PM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on July 21, 2009, 01:17:41 PM

So it's those frogs that will start the Revolution/Civil War/Great Insurrection that I'm trying desperately to mark on my calendar?

I checked with the frogs- February 21st, 2011. They said noonish. Mark it down.

freakazoid · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2009, 01:36:45 PM »

Quote

There will be a lot of boiled frogs. But some, trust me, will jump out of the pot.

One can only hope before it is to late.

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2009, 02:39:19 PM »

Quote from: longeyes on July 21, 2009, 01:11:35 PM

There will be a lot of boiled frogs. But some, trust me, will jump out of the pot.

Then jump, if you're so hellbent on causing the revolution. Just remember, the outcome might not be what you're hoping for. Hop, hop.

freakazoid · « **Reply #23 on:** July 21, 2009, 03:08:04 PM »

What are you getting at? That we should continue to kow-tow to the government? Should the founding fathers have done that?

AZRedhawk44 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 21, 2009, 03:22:39 PM »

Quote from: freakazoid on July 21, 2009, 03:08:04 PM

What are you getting at? That we should continue to kow-tow to the government? Should the founding fathers have done that?

Dood. Go "Galt." That's always an option for someone truly fed up with the system. You can still even participate on the intarwebz revoluciÃ³n debates while Galting it.

I know a couple folks who have quietly divorced themselves from society with very little external interaction.

Thing is... you have to put down the beer and the TV remote to git 'er dun. Owning land without financing it is a challenge. Building your own infrastructure on that land (home, shop, electricity, well, garden, etc) is expensive too. Paying credit card payments and mortgages requires a job with the outside world, which requires taxes.

And after all that, you still need some "stuff" from outside. Gotta have some sort of low key means to generate enough cash income to meet your property tax obligations and other consumables like clothes, certain foods, medicine and gasoline.

The best war you can wage against the FedGov (if you want to) is legally absolve yourself of any income tax liability while living happily and comfortably in an independently sustainable manner.

Or, you can stroke your AR15 in the soft glow of your computer monitor, waiting for ARFCOM's homepage to say "John has a long moustache."

News:

Author Topic: Republic compared to Democracy (Read 9228 times)