Author Topic: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian  (Read 7494 times)

roo_ster

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I swear I am not channeling Dave Barry when I write, "I am not making this up."

Appointee #1:
Dude who has advocated giving legal rights to trees, involuntary sterilization, spiking the drinking water with birth control chemicals and even more sinister schemes

Appointee #2:
A Christian who happened to spearhead the greatest biological scientific effort in the 20th century or (arguably) ever.

If you have to choose one to revile and one to stay mum about, the obvious choice is to revile the icky Christian and hope nobody notices Dr. Mengele the eugenic nutcase behind curtain #1.



http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGY1YzEwYTk3YTQ4NDE0MzUwM2FlMjhkNzM0MzA3MDY=

Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian   [Mark Hemingway]

Jonah notes below that Obama "science czar" John Holdren wanted to give trees legal standing to sue in court. As I wrote two weeks ago and later discussed Glenn Beck's program, the more recent revelation of Holdren's harebrained endorsement of the arboreal legal rights comes on the heels of learning he had previously advocated:

Quote
    Laws requiring the abortion or adoption of illegitimate children; sterilizing women after having two children; legally requiring "reproductive responsibility" to those deemed by pointy-headed eugenicists to "contribute to general social deterioration"; and incredibly, putting sterilizing agents in the drinking water.

All this in the name of dealing with an impending overpopulation crisis that never materialized. When the news broke about Holdren's troubling views, I thought it was particularly telling that despite the fact that Holdren thinks that Dr. Strangelove is a how-to manual, the New York Times ignored the revelations about Holdren's past writings. The paper did, however, see fit to publish an article about objections to Obama's appointment of Dr. Francis S. Collins to head the National Institutes of Health:

Quote
    Collins, who led the effort to map the human genome, is responsible for one of the greatest scientific achievements in history. And yet, some have reservations. Why? Because, like the majority of Americans, he's a Christian.

    According to the New York Times: "He wrote a book called 'The Language of God,' and he has given many talks and interviews in which he described his conversion to Christianity as a 27-year-old medical student. Religion and genetic research have long had a fraught relationship, and some in the field complain about what they see as Dr. Collins's evangelism." The story was headlined "Pick to Lead Health Agency Draws Praise and Some Concern."

This past weekend, the New York Times subsequently published another op-ed by noted atheist Sam Harris decrying Collins's nomination on the grounds that he's *gasp* a Christian, even though, again, calling Collins's scientific credentials impressive would be an understatement.

Meanwhile, the Times still hasn't done one story about John Holdren's unusual beliefs. Now again, which scientist's views do you think are more troubling and newsworthy?
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Uncle Bubba

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 01:42:39 PM »

I said some years ago that nothing humans do will ever again surprise me. I am, however, flabbergasted by this. In fact, seldom has my flabber been so gasted. I haven't any idea what to say about or to people who would vilify the decent one and acquiesce to the nutcase.

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Iain

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 01:48:36 PM »
A quick read around indicates that you are hatchet-jobbing Holdren, which isn't a great surprise.

It also indicates that Collins has been the recipient of a hatchet-jobbing too. Aside from a 'God of the gaps' cop-out with Dawkins he isn't an advocate of ID, and refused to participate in Expelled. Seems like I owe him one with regards to his genetics research too.

Nasty business this politics.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 01:51:50 PM »
OK, Iain... please put the following beliefs into a rationally acceptable context:

Forced sterilization
Blanket treatment of population with birth control
Applying the bill of rights to inanimate objects or 4 legged creatures
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Iain

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 02:00:40 PM »
OK, Iain... please put the following beliefs into a rationally acceptable context:

Forced sterilization
Blanket treatment of population with birth control
Applying the bill of rights to inanimate objects or 4 legged creatures

Ok. With regard to the third - no idea, haven't read anything about it. It could very definitely be evidence that he is nuts.

The other things -

Quote
Says a White House official: “The quotations used to suggest that Dr. Holdren supports coercive approaches to limiting population growth were taken from a 1977 college textbook on environmental science and policy, of which he was the third author. The quoted material was from a section of the book that described different possible approaches to limiting population growth and then concluded that the authors’ own preference was to employ the noncoercive approaches before the environmental and social impacts of overpopulation led desperate societies to employ coercive ones. Dr. Holdren has never been an advocate of compulsory abortions or other repressive means of population limitation.”

The White House official goes on to say that “Dr. Holdren and his co-authors make clear in the book that the section dealing with overpopulation is a compendium of others’ views, which are meticulously footnoted. Indeed, Dr. Holdren makes clear in the book that he personally rejects coercive approaches to population control.”
- http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/07/when-academic-words-become-political-ammunition-.html 

From 1977. So apparently was his trees thing. I say politics is a dirty business because I watched politically motivated friends studiously avoid developing a personality so that no utterances from 30 years before could be thrown at them in the future. Seems they were quite right to be so careful.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 02:03:52 PM by Iain »
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Seenterman

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 02:18:08 PM »
Seriously, WTF?

Why isn't any media head talking about this? Are any of the conservative media figures speaking about this? (I refuse to watch any news programs anymore) I had faith in Obama that he would do good for this country but after all the issues of the TARP funding, his stance on health care, and now we have a fking Nazi philosophy adherent appointed to the position of Science Czar.  Don't even get me started on WTF are Czars doing in America.

Can everyone just jump ship from the Republican and Democratic parties. I'm convinced their both to stupid, and hard headed to listen to the other side (which both need to do), and both need to die a quick and painful death.  Can everyone just join the Libertarian party? Seriously how do you unregistered from a party, I'm done with the Demo's.


EDIT:  I've heard of Dr. Collins before, granted  I haven't heard much about him but seriously nothing could be worse that this other loon. Who gives a f**K what religion he practices!! WTF!!!
 

« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 02:21:28 PM by Seenterman »

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2009, 02:25:56 PM »
Iain, I've been reading a ton about Holdren the last week or two. Jfruser isn't doing a hatchet job. This stuff is all out there for public viewing. There's even more than what's been covered here.

Iain

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2009, 02:28:20 PM »
Iain, I've been reading a ton about Holdren the last week or two. Jfruser isn't doing a hatchet job. This stuff is all out there for public viewing. There's even more than what's been covered here.

Detail it then. You're going to need something that isn't misquoted, and isn't a position from the 1970s that he has subsequently moved away from.
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Balog

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2009, 02:36:13 PM »
I had faith in Obama that he would do good for this country

I lol'ed.
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roo_ster

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2009, 02:55:56 PM »
A quick read around indicates that you are hatchet-jobbing Holdren, which isn't a great surprise.

It also indicates that Collins has been the recipient of a hatchet-jobbing too. Aside from a 'God of the gaps' cop-out with Dawkins he isn't an advocate of ID, and refused to participate in Expelled. Seems like I owe him one with regards to his genetics research too.

Nasty business this politics.

Detail it then. You're going to need something that isn't misquoted, and isn't a position from the 1970s that he has subsequently moved away from.

Yeah, because just like "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas," it would be out of order to hold anything said or written in the 1970s against the author.  ;/

Dude, he co-wrote a book on the topics (along with that false prophet of doom, Paul Ehrlich), and has claimed that book on his CV for decades.

The hatchet involved is the one he & the WH are using to extricate himself from the thicket his anti-human, statist, eugenicist, and pro-one-world-gov't views place him in vis a vis the majority not in favor of eugenics enforced by an international police force.

He was still displaying his authorship proudly on all his online CV up till this month.  Those he has personal control over have since been expunged, but this one, I would guess, he doesn't have easy write privileges on:
http://www.whrc.org/about_us/whos_who/CV/jholdren.htm

He only recanted a few of the positions, undergoing a "confirmation conversion" during his confirmation hearing earlier this month.

A whole passel of fun & totalitarian fantasyland excerpts are to be found at zombietime's web site, as he got himself a copy and scanned them in, because, at zt writes:
This report was originally inspired by this article in FrontPage magazine, which covers some of the same information given here. But that article, although it contained many shocking quotes from John Holdren, failed to make much of an impact on public opinion. Why not? Because, as I discovered when discussing the article with various friends, there was no proof that the quotes were accurate -- so most folks (even those opposed to Obama's policies) doubted their veracity, because the statements seemed too inflammatory to be true. In the modern era, it seems, journalists have lost all credibility, and so are presumed to be lying or exaggerating unless solid evidence is offered to back up the claims. Well, this report contains that evidence.

Do mash the link to see the scanned pages, photos of the book, and a whole lot of information:
http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/

Page 837: Compulsory abortions would be legal

Page 786: Single mothers should have their babies taken away by the government; or they could be forced to have abortions

Page 787-8: Mass sterilization of humans though drugs in the water supply is OK as long as it doesn't harm livestock
(Yeah, wouldn't want to violate the livestock's rights)

Page 786-7: The government could control women's reproduction by either sterilizing them or implanting mandatory long-term birth control

Page 838: The kind of people who cause "social deterioration" can be compelled to not have children

Page 838: Nothing is wrong or illegal about the government dictating family size

Page 942-3: A "Planetary Regime" should control the global economy and dictate by force the number of children allowed to be born

Page 917: We will need to surrender national sovereignty to an armed international police force

Page 749: Pro-family and pro-birth attitudes are caused by ethnic chauvinism

Page 944: As of 1977, we are facing a global overpopulation catastrophe that must be resolved at all costs by the year 2000




Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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roo_ster

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2009, 03:01:07 PM »
A quick read around indicates that you are hatchet-jobbing Holdren, which isn't a great surprise.

I swore I wasn't channeling Dave Barry, but you seem to be channeling Barack Obama, what with the jumping to conclusions before having any facts at hand.

Umm, no. Take it to PM.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 03:06:03 PM by Gewehr98 »
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roo_ster

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mellestad

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2009, 05:37:07 PM »
Let me preface the fact that I know *nothing* about this guy, or any of this.

But Iain seems to be saying the quotes are taken out of context from a text book he co-authored that listed a big list of ways people might consider controlling population.

I think what Iain wants is some confirmation that these views (the population control, trees, etc.) are actually Holden's, and not just some stuff listed in a big brain storming session, etc. but something he actually advocated for, and that seems fair.

If those are/were his actual views, fine, continue, by all means!  But it would be nice to see something more conclusive before the torches come out.

(Edit: I just did the research myself.  The population control thing seems like a hatchet job, there are many quotes clarifying his position.  Even in the original book he advocated for nothing more than family planning and access to abortion, the rest of the ideas were listed as possible methods...and they are possible methods, so I don't see the problem.

The tree thing though, is a little hippie.  Not quite as stupid as it sounds, he was trying to find ways to sue for pollution damage in the 1970's.  Hippie, but not really whacko.  I imagine he dropped the idea now, groups have found ways to sue the government about pollution in other ways.  http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=51756)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 05:53:13 PM by mellestad »

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2009, 04:43:46 AM »
First of all, as has been repeatedly pointed out, Ecoscience had multiple authors.  Taking statements from the book and attributing them directly and solely to Holdren is ridiculous, unless it is a collection of single-author essays, which I have found no evidence of it being.

The quotes from Ecoscience consistently make clear that they are discussing possibilities (based on the thesis that Earth cannot sustain continued population growth and industry, which may not be true on the timescales they were talking about, but is probably true on larger timescales), and they are not necessarily discussing their own policy preferences, but rather solutions to this perceived problem.

These eugenics thought experiments have been in the philosophical literature at least as far back as Plato.  Some people like to malign Plato himself because of it.  Personally, I'm content to dismiss out of hand most of the proposals, while recognizing that there are some important issues raised, even if the proposals themselves are almost always ethically dubious, disturbing, or disgusting.  The main difference is that Plato's thought experiments were focused on achieving political ideals, rather than mitigating perceived, potential ecological problems.

Quote from: Ecoscience
Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems. [this goes on to explore the possibility of probabilistic fertility reduction rather than outright sterilization]

It doesn't appear to me that the authors are convinced that the proposals they discuss (and let's be honest, this is just a compendium of ideas that previously existed; it's not as if the authors invented these proposals) are both legal and ethical.

Quote from: Ecoscience
(page 786) ...responsible parenthood ought to be encouraged and illegitimate childbearing could be strongly discouraged.
  Note the difference in verb forms.  Clearly his preference is for responsible parenthood (don't we all have that preference?), while the rest of what he presents is a thought experiment into possible options the government could take to improve child welfare.


From the page's commentary: "In the final sentence of this passage, Holdren speaks approvingly of Singapore's infamous totalitarian micromanaging of people's daily lives. "  I can find no obvious statement of approval of such schemes in the text, and any implicit approval would be contingent on there being a population problem, which the authors may assert elsewhere but is certainly subject to scientific challenge.

Evidently all the critics of Ecoscience are unfamiliar with the concept of using thought experiments to brainstorm for solutions to existent or possible problems.  The scanned pages continually make reference to the fact that these proposals are designed to address the problem of unsustainable growth; if in fact population growth is nonexistent or perhaps becomes sustainable through scientific breakthroughs, I see plenty of evidence that the authors would not support any of the socially disruptive mandates that they examine as possibilities in the book.  Take this quote, for instance:
Quote
It is often argued that the right to have children is so personal that the government should not regulate it. In an ideal society, no doubt the state should leave family size and composition solely to the desires of the parents.

If you want to debate this issue seriously, you're going to have to suppress your knee-jerk reactions.  I have knee-jerk reactions to reading some of the passages, as well.  For instance:

Quote
If this [planetary ecological control and population control regime] be accomplished, security might be provided by an armed international organization, a global analogue of a police force. Many people have recognized this as a goal, but the way to reach it remains obscure in a world where factionalism seems, if anything, to be increasing. The first step necessarily involves partial surrender of sovereignty to an international organization. But it seems probable that, as long as most people fail to comprehend the magnitude of the danger, that step will be impossible.

Of course I hate the UN with a passion, so this starts to make my skin crawl.  However, note the last sentence, where it talks about a substantial danger [of ecological destruction and overpopulation].  Most people, Erlich and Holdren included, do not want to impose mass sterilization and strict ecological controls just because they feel like it.  They offer the kind of theoretical ideas in the book simply because they want to avoid having us poison and starve ourselves. 

Any criticism of Erlich and Holdren (and indeed most radical eco-rights and population control advocates) must start by addressing this concern and showing that it is ill-founded on relevant timescales.  Otherwise you're just wasting your time, because you haven't established any agreement about what the problem is, whether it exists, and on what scale.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2009, 04:54:56 AM »
Quote
Any criticism of Erlich and Holdren (and indeed most radical eco-rights and population control advocates) must start by addressing this concern and showing that it is ill-founded on relevant timescales.  Otherwise you're just wasting your time, because you haven't established any agreement about what the problem is, whether it exists, and on what scale.

The concern is so entirely irrelevant it's not even funny, but even if it were relevant, there are dozens of practical, ethical, and moral issues with the concept of planetary birth control.

Let us SUPPOSE, for a fleeting second, humanity is facing overpopulation. Even then, do you think an unelected board of planetary regulators is the way to manage humanity?
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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2009, 09:04:05 AM »
Quote
In the final sentence of this passage, Holdren speaks approvingly of Singapore's infamous totalitarian micromanaging of people's daily lives.

As long as he was approving of their law against long hair on men, I'm OK with it.   =D
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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2009, 10:00:29 AM »
Quote
First of all, as has been repeatedly pointed out, Ecoscience had multiple authors.  Taking statements from the book and attributing them directly and solely to Holdren is ridiculous, unless it is a collection of single-author essays, which I have found no evidence of it being.

The quotes from Ecoscience consistently make clear that they are discussing possibilities (based on the thesis that Earth cannot sustain continued population growth and industry, which may not be true on the timescales they were talking about, but is probably true on larger timescales), and they are not necessarily discussing their own policy preferences, but rather solutions to this perceived problem.

You (and Iain) make it sound as though Holdren was some sort of passive partner in the writing of this book. He wasn't.

The arguments that this was long ago and far away don't wash, either. If I was the Grand Kleagle of the KKK in 1973, I think that would be fair grounds for an effort to have me disqualified for any White House position.

There are ways to describe proposals to control population while simultaneously rejecting those proposals, but Holdren didn't do that. He held out these proposals as possible solutions.

You can bet the farm that if in 1973 someone had proposed curbing crime by creating a system to track all young black males, that person would be persona non grata at even a Hoboken city council meeting, even if that person later disavowed the proposal.

If the Obama adminstration was not trying to nationalize health care, if the administration had not already nationalized two automobile companies and several banks, if the administration wasn't trying to turn the US into a European socialist state, if the administration wasn't trying to impose the most radical agenda on the country in our history, then maybe Holdren wouldn't be facing such opposition. But he's another appointee with a rather curious past.

Or is he, like Bill Ayers, just a guy from the neighborhood?

roo_ster

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2009, 11:10:17 AM »
First of all, as has been repeatedly pointed out, Ecoscience had multiple authors.  Taking statements from the book and attributing them directly and solely to Holdren is ridiculous, unless it is a collection of single-author essays, which I have found no evidence of it being.

Slap your name on something, claim it as one of your own works in your CV for decades,  and you "own" the content. If he had a moral problem with any of the content, he could have demanded his name be removed and returned any advance he was given before the work was printed.  It happens in the book business and in other industries where collaboration is common. 

Also, the single author essay vs multiple author responsibility/attribution scheme is entirely incorrect:
1. If a work has multiple authors and you are one of them, you own the content.
2. If a work is a collection of discrete works with discrete authors and your work appears in that work, but does not contain the outrageous content, you are not responsible for the other authors' writings and not held to account for the outrageous content.

The quotes from Ecoscience consistently make clear that they are discussing possibilities (based on the thesis that Earth cannot sustain continued population growth and industry, which may not be true on the timescales they were talking about, but is probably true on larger timescales), and they are not necessarily discussing their own policy preferences, but rather solutions to this perceived problem.

Ideas have consequences (see 20th Century history).  These folks were doing their level best to inject their ideas more broadly into the culture and whitewashing them with the bogus urgency of a manufactured crisis...while trying to maintain a little stand-off room.

No one "discussing possibilities" such as these, but concentrating them on, say, the 13% of the population that is black and more prone to family breakdown would be given a pass.  I think such a standard ought to be fair for those who propose it for the other 87% of the population, too.


Evidently all the critics of Ecoscience are unfamiliar with the concept of using thought experiments to brainstorm for solutions to existent or possible problems.

Faulty assumption on your part.  If one is not a moral cripple, some "solutions" (Final or otherwise) are off the table. 

Any criticism of Erlich and Holdren (and indeed most radical eco-rights and population control advocates) must start by addressing this concern and showing that it is ill-founded on relevant timescales.  Otherwise you're just wasting your time, because you haven't established any agreement about what the problem is, whether it exists, and on what scale.

Sorry, but there is no such prerequisite.  There have been plenty other pseudo-scientific panics in the past.  The enviro-nuttiness and neo-malthusianism are just a couple of the latest.  One does not have to address the edifice of manure to criticize heinous and anti-human policies erected on such an edifice.  They can be vile in and of themselves under any circumstances.



This is what the informed defenders if Holdren don't get: a man who will contemplate such when under stress (even if the stress is BS) shows his true colors and is morally unsuitable for such a gov't post.

Not to mention being such a kool-aid drinker as to fall in with the likes of Ehrlich.
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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2009, 12:21:17 PM »
You Republicans hate science!

This is a Man of Holy Science.  He must not be questioned!

Reason and Science!

Science Police=> :police:
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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2009, 12:49:18 PM »

Not to mention being such a kool-aid drinker as to fall in with the likes of Ehrlich.
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mellestad

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2009, 05:20:57 PM »
Slap your name on something, claim it as one of your own works in your CV for decades,  and you "own" the content. If he had a moral problem with any of the content, he could have demanded his name be removed and returned any advance he was given before the work was printed.  It happens in the book business and in other industries where collaboration is common. 

Also, the single author essay vs multiple author responsibility/attribution scheme is entirely incorrect:
1. If a work has multiple authors and you are one of them, you own the content.
2. If a work is a collection of discrete works with discrete authors and your work appears in that work, but does not contain the outrageous content, you are not responsible for the other authors' writings and not held to account for the outrageous content.

Ideas have consequences (see 20th Century history).  These folks were doing their level best to inject their ideas more broadly into the culture and whitewashing them with the bogus urgency of a manufactured crisis...while trying to maintain a little stand-off room.

No one "discussing possibilities" such as these, but concentrating them on, say, the 13% of the population that is black and more prone to family breakdown would be given a pass.  I think such a standard ought to be fair for those who propose it for the other 87% of the population, too.


Faulty assumption on your part.  If one is not a moral cripple, some "solutions" (Final or otherwise) are off the table. 

Sorry, but there is no such prerequisite.  There have been plenty other pseudo-scientific panics in the past.  The enviro-nuttiness and neo-malthusianism are just a couple of the latest.  One does not have to address the edifice of manure to criticize heinous and anti-human policies erected on such an edifice.  They can be vile in and of themselves under any circumstances.



This is what the informed defenders if Holdren don't get: a man who will contemplate such when under stress (even if the stress is BS) shows his true colors and is morally unsuitable for such a gov't post.

Not to mention being such a kool-aid drinker as to fall in with the likes of Ehrlich.

Whoa there...again, I want to stress that I don't know anything about this guy, and I don't care either way, but by your arguments you seem to be saying that if someone discusses a topic in a textbook then they support it without reservation.

I doubt that is what you mean, but you might want to re-phrase some of your argument so you don't sound that way.

If I write a book about racism and I say, "In the 20th century, minority crime was a severe problem in some areas and many American's considered a system of "racial profiling" to target minority citizens, with the idea that since a certain ethnic group was more heavily involved with crime, they should be targeted more heavily." you could turn that around in thirty years and accuse me of being a racist.

Again, I doubt that is what you mean, but that is what your post says.

(Edit: This is why I think you need to show that he endorsed the ideas in the textbook before you can get out the pitchforks, not just textbook discussion.  I mean, come on, if you are writing a book about population control, as an educator, you have a duty to discuss all the possibilities, instead of censoring yourself to protect people's minds from the "Consequences of ideas".  If he really endorsed it you should be able to find lectures where he pushes the ideas, or phrases that say things like, "Mr. So-and-so called for more forced abortions today...", etc.)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 05:27:00 PM by mellestad »

Buzzcook

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2009, 01:07:47 PM »
The tree and animal thing was a legal stratagem, which would allow people (humans) to sue in behalf of animals and plants regarding violations of the endangered species act. Just another way to force government to obey its own laws.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2009, 06:44:33 PM »
The last thing we need is to make the government more effective.

roo_ster

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2009, 11:09:45 PM »
The last thing we need is to make the government more effective.

Yeah, I like small and relatively ineffective at most tasks save killing enemies and breaking their stuff.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2009, 08:16:05 AM »
Yeah, I like small and relatively ineffective at most tasks save killing enemies and breaking their stuff.

And frankly, for many countries even that is excessive. Think modern Canada, Belgium, Andorra, and so forth.
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longeyes

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Re: Sure, He's Completely Nuts, But at Least He's Not a Christian
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2009, 12:20:26 PM »
Quote
The tree and animal thing was a legal stratagem, which would allow people (humans) to sue in behalf of animals and plants regarding violations of the endangered species act. Just another way to force government to obey its own laws.

Maybe we don't need a legal strategem?  Maybe we need some enlightened rationality?

Right now it appears that "The Planet" has better legal representation than The Mob.   We've gone from mankind as "the crown of Creation" to mankind as a dangerous virus poisoning Gaia.  Something in-between might be appropriate.
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