Author Topic: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI  (Read 7710 times)

freedom lover

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2009, 04:18:09 AM »
[Shut up about the impossibility of an all-out nuclear war in the current political climate].

All it takes is one crazy Russian general with high level access. Other novels have had similar characters. Also, will your novel be published in English or in Hebrew?
No need for for magnum shells; even a steel turkey load up close would inflict serious ouchies.

If turkey shot is anything like regular birdshot it won't penetrate deep enough to kill.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm

Regolith

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2009, 04:54:53 AM »
If turkey shot is anything like regular birdshot it won't penetrate deep enough to kill.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm

Turkey shot is on the the large end of the bird shot scale.

T shot (which is intended for turkeys and other large birds such as geese), for instance, is only a few hundredths of an inch smaller than #4 buckshot (.20 caliber versus .24 caliber).

Lead BB shot, which is around .17 caliber, has also been shown penetrate deep enough to be adequate for self defense at close range.

And at close range, even #8 bird shot CAN kill.  Quite easily.

The reason it isn't normally suggested as a good defensive round is that although it can kill, it may not stop an attack.  The attacker may eventually bleed out from the wound (which, with bird shot, is usually horrific but shallow), but they may be able to complete their attack in the meantime. Buckshot, on the other hand, usually is able to penetrate deep enough to take out the central nervous system, very large arteries and the heart.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2009, 07:43:01 AM »
Quote
All it takes is one crazy Russian general with high level access.

Or Perimeter going seriously wrong.

Quote
Also, will your novel be published in English or in Hebrew?

Published?
 
Ha.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2009, 09:36:04 AM »
I know you're going for "pulp", but you might want to include a reference to some Cobalt 60 or something else long-lived and nasty in the bombs. Even then, Co60 will have gone through three half-lives within 15 years, so even it's not "that bad" on a longer term historical timescale.

Otherwise the "fallout belt" strategy only really has any meaning as an effective barrier from the starving hordes for about a month or two. The more potent the isotope, the shorter it's half-life... generally. After two months, the radiation level from your average isotope spread from a bomb is statistically a lower threat to life span than just general infrastructure collapse. And there's also the fact that it's the isotopes that have high bio-availibility such as Iodine getting in your thyroid, and strontium in lieu of calcium in the bones that are the biggest worries.

Most post-nuclear fiction tends to show the world as orange, dusty, dry, etc. In reality, only places that were already orange dusty and dry would be that way.  =D Otherwise it would be pretty darn lush.

You could actually have a good spin on your story with that, referring back to how the Cheyrnobyl exclusion zone, aside from some localized hotspots right around the reactor and the ghost town of Pripiyat, has been an absolute boon to the plants and wildlife of the area. It now has some of the best biodiversity and animal populations of anywhere in Europe. A measly little nuclear war is nothing as compared to the constant efforts of mankind to maintain our agriculture, roads, and buildings.

So even if the family has a car, somehow manages to secure fuel, large highway interchanges will be nuked, so by the time they cover any significant distance, a lot of the radiation will have weakened to the point it's just a statistical percentage off the end of your life, and food/water/shelter/safety are much higher priorities.

Just a thought.

Oh, some good source material might be "Nuclear War Survival Skills" by Kearney, which is availible as a free download from OISM. Easily Googleable. It was a real eye-opener as to the survivability of nuclear war for those not in the immediate blast and firestorm radius.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2009, 10:20:57 AM »
Quote
Oh, some good source material might be "Nuclear War Survival Skills" by Kearney, which is availible as a free download from OISM. Easily Googleable. It was a real eye-opener as to the survivability of nuclear war for those not in the immediate blast and firestorm radius.

Read it. I also read several survivalist pulp novels by way of preparation, as well as about a dozen different prognoses on how nuclear war would be like. What hit me most is that there is no consensus, even among the experts, on what the effects of full-scale nuclear war would be, apart from the obvious that it would suck horribly for all involved. The specific terms of the suckyness are not clear, however.

This however, is a nice map which I found at ki4u [offline right now] regarding the possible fallout patterns:



It's really clear that it wouldn't be healthy to stay in the red-lit areas. The best thing to do would be to wait out the first few hours and GTFO.

 I also use the good help of the nice people at SurvivalMonkey to figure stuff out.

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Even then, Co60 will have gone through three half-lives within 15 years, so even it's not "that bad" on a longer term historical timescale.

Wouldn't there be additional pollution from nuke plants getting hit by bombs, waste storage sites being destroyed, and so forth?

Also, do I not understand correctly that within several months vast amounts of people would have starved, killed each other, and so forth?
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AJ Dual

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2009, 11:05:33 AM »
You do understand correctly.

I think my point is that once you've gone past a month or two, the "suckyness" of a nuclear war at least in radiation terms is pretty low. Again, I use Cheyrnobyl as my example. Even though the isotope types and radiation sources are different. Looking at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the incidence of blast damage, and thermal burn victims is orders of magnitude higher than long term radiation issues on the survivors, just like any other conventional mass bombardment. Granted the yields at the end of WWII were low, around 12-20kt, but American and Russian doctrine moved away from the big multi-megaton bombs as targeting technology improved in the 1970's, and we had less need for "overkill" to compensate for manned bomber losses due to interceptopn.

Now the highest common yields are around 100kt, and if there's any 1-2mt devices, we're likely to use them on each other's missile fields.

I'm just thinking that a brief mention of this, having normal weather, normal plant life, and even having it on the increase would be the most "realistic". People seem to have it ingrained in their collective unconcious from movies, video games etc. that a post nuclear world will be gray, or orange and dusty and desert like for some reason.

It will look like Cheyrnobyl. A burnt blasted area, then wildlife and plants coming back with a vengance shortly thereafter. That's my main point. Also, even in a 100% nuclear exchange, with every nuclear power using their bombs on something/someone, the fires and dust will still be miniscule as compared to just one large volcanic explosion, like Krakatoa, where historical records show it caused just one "failed summer". So IMO, the "nuclear winter" scenario is pretty much bunk as well.

Also, that fallout map you're working from, that's just mainly U.S. military targets. The heaviest red swaths starting in Montana, North Dakota, Kansas etc. are our ballistic missile fields, and SAC bases. Note that Washington D.C., New York, Chicago, and any number of other major cities have not been targeted in that scenario, but most surely would be. If every major military installation, and every city were targeted, plus strategic roadway intersections, and rail yards etc. The map would be meaningless as it would almost ALL be red.

The northwestern U.S. would probably be the only place with some clear patches. They did this so the map would be readable. Which is why certain white supremacist and survivalist groups have preferred the area since the onset of the Cold War.

Honestly, unless a map like this was somehow disseminated during the initial attack or you're a decent meteorologist to make up your own map, you've really got no idea other than "Generally East" which way the U.S. fallout pattern is progressing. It really is the safest thing to hole up for two weeks with no outside trips, and then another month with limited outside exposure before you start moving.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 11:16:09 AM by AJ Dual »
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coppertales

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2009, 11:19:26 AM »
First, you have to put them in the right frame of mind.......you tell them that they need to have a gun and know how to use it or die.  Then proceed teaching them how to shoot the gun they have.  As they all know what a gun is, it boils down to their desire to live or die.  If they are like alot of us, they will live.  If they depend on the government for their nanny care, they will die.  However, if they are babes, that may change things.  High maintenance is difficult in the wild.....chris3

MicroBalrog

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2009, 11:28:20 AM »
Quote
It will look like Cheyrnobyl. A burnt blasted area, then wildlife and plants coming back with a vengance shortly thereafter. That's my main point. Also, even in a 100% nuclear exchange, with every nuclear power using their bombs on something/someone, the fires and dust will still be miniscule as compared to just one large volcanic explosion, like Krakatoa, where historical records show it caused just one "failed summer". So IMO, the "nuclear winter" scenario is pretty much bunk as well.

In my view, the scenarios - all of the scenarios - that predict the end of humanity due to the various damages of WW3 are bunks. Lots of people will die, but the Earth will remain habitable.

The main question is what happens to humanity. Most of the engines of civilization as we know it are currently centralized - there are centers of trade, production, and government. When these disappear, when the means by which humanity does trade and produces and researches disappear, then the billions who depend on the machines of trade for their food, shelter, and livelihood, will find themselves suddenly upon the broken ruins even if their locality is not directly affected. Civilization, in effect, will shut down.

This is why the setting is popular for fiction - writers want to explore an environment where civilization has shut down, either to explore their views on the True Nature of Man, or to show their heroes being awesome heroes upon the ruins. David Brin's "Postman" is an anti-survivalist screed, for example, whereas the film focuses of Kostner being awesome [in the book, the Brin essentially states that society cannot be rebuilt until the survivalists are all rounded up and shot].
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AJ Dual

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2009, 11:49:29 AM »
That is an interesting question.

It's certainly happened before in history. The archeological digs in Greenland for Norse settlments are interesting, because they're full of knife handles where the blades were worn down to nubs from generations of sharpening. When the area got deforested, they lost the ability to make charcoal to smelt iron, and Greenland was abandoned.

OTOH, in modern times knowledge AND tools are distributed more widely than ever before. Things might bounce back quicker than expected. There's literaly thousands of "blacksmiths" now, machine shops, garages etc... I'm not sure that a full nuclear war would push us much past the early 1900's in terms of technology.

Plus there would still be many non-targeted nations. Most are third-world pestholes, but with new economic opportunity some of them might turn around and be new superpowers within a generation.
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freedom lover

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2009, 02:11:18 PM »
However, if they are babes, that may change things.  High maintenance is difficult in the wild.....chris3

It's my experience that most babes are certainly not high maintenance. Beside's, even if they were I doubt most high maintenace women would be stupid enough to let their character drag them down in a time of extreme hardship. I think you forget the great amount of fighting, hardship, and work women went through during WWII. Many European civilian women during and after the war had it much harder than the men. 

MicroBalrog

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2009, 02:29:46 PM »
All my commanding officers in the army were women.

One of them was a former Company Commander in an infantry unit, before she came into the posession of a job as an Ordnance Officer, and one was a former drill instructor before coming into possession of a job as XO of a certain IDF facility and a pair of clerks [one of them being me].
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2009, 08:26:04 PM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2009, 08:46:43 PM »
You don't train AFTER teotwawki.  If you aren't already Rambo, you get eaten by zombies.  ZOMBIES!   
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drewtam

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2009, 09:56:55 PM »
Y'all ever watch "Jeremiah" on HBO and now Scifi?

Mighty fine use of post-apocalypse.
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red headed stranger

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2009, 08:18:26 AM »
Y'all ever watch "Jeremiah" on HBO and now Scifi?

Mighty fine use of post-apocalypse.

I'm gonna check that out.  It flew under my radar b/c I was overseas at the time. 
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CNYCacher

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2009, 08:51:01 AM »
Jericho?
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2009, 08:55:08 AM »
Jericho?
Jericho was full of fail in many ways.

But in others I did like it. It certainly was the first post-nuclear scenario where after the first few weeks the issues were all about infrastructure collapse and lawlessness.

But it went back into fail-mode when essentialy it becomes clear the whole thing was orchestrated by thinly renamed Halliburton and Blackwater corporations.  ;/
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2009, 09:01:03 AM »
Jericho was full of fail in many ways.

But in others I did like it. It certainly was the first post-nuclear scenario where after the first few weeks the issues were all about infrastructure collapse and lawlessness.

But it went back into fail-mode when essentialy it becomes clear the whole thing was orchestrated by thinly renamed Halliburton and Blackwater corporations.  ;/

Note to self: Do not watch Jericho.
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CNYCacher

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2009, 10:05:25 AM »
Is Jeremiah a typo for Jericho?
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

Gewehr98

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2009, 10:43:56 AM »
I actually enjoyed watching Jericho, if just for the entertainment value.

That FEMA fallout pattern map is both obsolete and somewhat one-dimensional, hence it being labeled "Sample". Trust me on that one, it was what I did for a living prior to retirement.

MB, will you have tactical wheelbarrows in your story line?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2009, 10:44:49 AM »
No. I promised 2swap to incorporate a wookie suit though.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2009, 10:46:18 AM »
Dude, a tactical wheelbarrow full of rimfire ammo is essential for SHTF scenarios!  :D
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freedom lover

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2009, 11:14:33 AM »
Dude, a tactical wheelbarrow full of rimfire ammo is essential for SHTF scenarios!  :D

Don't forget the de-barked poodle.

AJ Dual

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Re: Firearms training after TEOTWAWKI
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2009, 11:38:32 AM »
Lots of rope to make your raft for floating down the Mississippi to warmer climates, and to locate local warlords who'll take you on as a mercenary/assassin for hire...
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