Left Wing Loons and Obamacare

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

My understanding is that you can opt-out of NHS and use private health care.  Does Stephen Hawking actually rely on the NHS or the private system to stay alive?  Simply being born British, living in Britain, and staying alive does not prove that the NHS serves you well.

The IBD editorial has been edited to remove all mention of SH, so it's hard to tell exactly what they're were trying to say about him.  The editorial does go into some detail about how the NHS judges which people have a life worth spending money to save and which people don't.  Apparently the decision is based on some sort of points system, where the more disabilities you have (blindness, needing a wheel chair, etc) the lower your chances of receiving life-saving care.  If that much of the editorial is correct, then it's possible that Stephen Hawking, with his physical disabilities, scores low enough to not merit certain forms of care under NHS.

[AJ Dual]

Also, the NHS example fails in the other way.

Obamacare would effectively kill all private medical care alternatives.

[agricola]

The IBD editorial has been edited to remove all mention of SH, so it's hard to tell exactly what they're were trying to say about him.  The editorial does go into some detail about how the NHS judges which people have a life worth spending money to save and which people don't.  Apparently the decision is based on some sort of points system, where the more disabilities you have (blindness, needing a wheel chair, etc) the lower your chances of receiving life-saving care.  If that much of the editorial is correct, then it's possible that Stephen Hawking, with his physical disabilities, scores low enough to not merit certain forms of care under NHS.

That argument appears to be based on a minsunderstanding of what the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence does in approving / not purchasing treatments on a national level.  IIRC the disability of a patient does not come into that calculation, though lifestyle probably does (eg:  a chronic alcoholic will usually have to demonstrate they are dealing with their problem before getting a liver transplant, though they will get other treatments) and age can in some cases.  The decision of NIHCE can also be overriden by the individual hospital, though they then have to pay for it.  Irrespective of what NIHCE says, you remain free to go private and get the treatment that way if you want to.

In any case, what NIHCE does is (or at least appears to be) what your medical insurance companies do all the time.

[Iain]

"People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

That argument appears to be based on a minsunderstanding of what the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence does in approving / not purchasing treatments on a national level.  IIRC the disability of a patient does not come into that calculation, though lifestyle probably does (eg:  a chronic alcoholic will usually have to demonstrate they are dealing with their problem before getting a liver transplant, though they will get other treatments) and age can in some cases.  The decision of NIHCE can also be overriden by the individual hospital, though they then have to pay for it.  Irrespective of what NIHCE says, you remain free to go private and get the treatment that way if you want to.

In any case, what NIHCE does is (or at least appears to be) what your medical insurance companies do all the time.

Know of any good sources for learning about this NIHCE?  I'd like to know just what they do and don't do, because at first glance it looks like just the kind of thing we don't want here in the US.

A quick read of the NICE article on Wikipedia doesn't seem to contradict the IBD assessment.  Granted, neither IBD nor Wiki go into much detail.

[agricola]

Know of any good sources for learning about this NIHCE?  I'd like to know just what they do and don't do, because at first glance it looks like just the kind of thing we don't want here in the US.

You appear to already have it, albeit its a company and not a state organization that does it.  As for NIHCE, here is its link:

http://www.nice.org.uk/

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

You appear to already have it, albeit its a company and not a state organization that does it.  As for NIHCE, here is its link:

http://www.nice.org.uk/

We generally don't have anything like that.  Obviously it depends upon what kind of insurance plan you buy, but usually the insurance company is obligated to reimburse for any treatment you might need regardless of how many "quality adjusted life years" anyone thinks you might have.

[Jamisjockey]

I skipped over this one with some other stuff going on.
I'd just like to remind our members that calling people loons isn't really productive nor fitting in the APS mindset.  Just keep it in mind for the future. 

[charby]

Loon:

[Scout26]

A government agency called NICE, is somewhat Orwellian.....

[makattak]

A government agency called NICE, is somewhat Orwellian.....

Ironically, it is Lewisian (I may have just coined a term). C.S. Lewis has a government agency bent on the remaking of mankind named NICE in That Hideous Strength.

[Perd Hapley]

I skipped over this one with some other stuff going on.
I'd just like to remind our members that calling people loons isn't really productive nor fitting in the APS mindset.  Just keep it in mind for the future. 

And must we refer to Republicans as Pubbies?  I lose about five IQ points every time I read that. 

[roo_ster]

Probably the same priority as he does now? 

Not likely. 

His fame and his money are a package deal.  If he were some no-name academic he would most definitely be treated differently.  As a Really Famous Guy, NHS knows just how much a stink there would be if they screwed up with his care or made the decision to let him wither without any extraordinary care.

If still alive as a no-name, he'd be some truly piteous creature stashed away in a nursing home, lucky if he didn't have a baker's dozen bed sores.

[buzz_knox]

It's worth noting that Obama has said he should be judged by the company he keeps, and said company is filled with individuals who have recommended every wacko and evil scheme being remarked upon in this thread.  Children and elderly receiving no care because they aren't worthwhile?  That's from Emanuel, Obama's health advisor.  Of course, the language about needing to make "hard choices" when it comes to providing for the terminally ill, elderly, chronically ill comes straight from Obama himself (in April, before he changed his tune).

Everything we accuse the socialized health systems (including the rationing that British docs have openly discussed) will become reality here, even if it doesn't existe elsewhere, unless this push is stopped cold and the people advocating it taken out of office or any other position where they can do us harm.

[agricola]

Not likely. 

His fame and his money are a package deal.  If he were some no-name academic he would most definitely be treated differently.  As a Really Famous Guy, NHS knows just how much a stink there would be if they screwed up with his care or made the decision to let him wither without any extraordinary care.

If still alive as a no-name, he'd be some truly piteous creature stashed away in a nursing home, lucky if he didn't have a baker's dozen bed sores.

Um... no.  People with similar illnesses to Hawking would get the same level of treatment as he has from the NHS, irrespective of their fame / money.  Meanwhile, two of the three people in that anti-NHS ad now regret taking part in it:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6795466.ece

Everything we accuse the socialized health systems (including the rationing that British docs have openly discussed) will become reality here

Will it?  It isnt even reality over here....

[makattak]

Um... no.  People with similar illnesses to Hawking would get the same level of treatment as he has from the NHS, irrespective of their fame / money.  Meanwhile, two of the three people in that anti-NHS ad now regret taking part in it:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6795466.ece

Hmmm... and from the article, NOTHING that was said was misrepresented by the ads.

It's just that they support socialized healthcare and don't want their experience to stop it here.

"The NHS let me down and I just wanted to make the point that people should not rely solely on it. But what I said has been skewed out of proportion. I am slightly worried that people might think I am taking a negative position on the NHS. My point was not that the NHS shouldn’t exist or that it was a bad thing. I think that our health service is not perfect but to get better it needs more public money, not less. I didn’t realise it was having such a political impact. I did sign a piece of paper saying they could do what they wanted, so it’s my own fault.”

So, she was failed by the NHS, but didn't want people to think she doesn't support it.

That's fine, the pertinent information to me is:

Ms Spall ('s)... mother died of kidney cancer while waiting for treatment, and Ms Brickell... had cervical cancer diagnosed after being refused a smear test because she was too young.

None of that was untrue, it's just they don't want people to think they don't support socialized healthcare.

[agricola]

None of that was untrue, it's just they don't want people to think they don't support socialized healthcare.

So lying to them about what the footage was for is ok?  Also, surely it would have been more ethical to actually say that they supported the NHS instead of coming out with the OMG DEATH PANEL SAVE US nonsense?

[Gewehr98]

And must we refer to Republicans as Pubbies?  I lose about five IQ points every time I read that. 

Two wrongs don't make a right, Fistful.  We catch them when we see them, but thanks for bringing that to our attention. 

[Iain]

Not likely. 

His fame and his money are a package deal.  If he were some no-name academic he would most definitely be treated differently.  As a Really Famous Guy, NHS knows just how much a stink there would be if they screwed up with his care or made the decision to let him wither without any extraordinary care.

If still alive as a no-name, he'd be some truly piteous creature stashed away in a nursing home, lucky if he didn't have a baker's dozen bed sores.

This is the problem with this whole debate, and why the twitter world and the rest has gone crazy in defence of the NHS.

People making stuff up. You have no proof of such a thing, no evidence to back up your assertions. I spent a portion of this morning with a man totally confined to a wheelchair, barely able to speak and swallow so advanced is his MS. He lives at home, has carers and gets out and about daily. He has no independent means, nor fame.

It's nothing to do with us caring about the decisions you make, it's entirely to do with us rejecting the outright fictions about the NHS that are being put forward. Hawking started showing symptoms of his disease before he even had a PhD, he was largely paralysed 14 years before the publication of 'A Brief History of Time'.

[agricola]

This is the problem with this whole debate, and why the twitter world and the rest has gone crazy in defence of the NHS.

People making stuff up. You have no proof of such a thing, no evidence to back up your assertions. I spent a portion of this morning with a man totally confined to a wheelchair, barely able to speak and swallow so advanced is his MS. He lives at home, has carers and gets out and about daily. He has no independent means, nor fame.

It's nothing to do with us caring about the decisions you make, it's entirely to do with us rejecting the outright fictions about the NHS that are being put forward. Hawking started showing symptoms of his disease before he even had a PhD, he was largely paralysed 14 years before the publication of 'A Brief History of Time'.

Exactly. 

[makattak]

So lying to them about what the footage was for is ok?  Also, surely it would have been more ethical to actually say that they supported the NHS instead of coming out with the OMG DEATH PANEL SAVE US nonsense?

Point 1: No, I don't support lying to people.

Point 2: For a commercial I have no problem with simply pointing out their experiences as consequences of a socialized health system. Commercials are by their nature short and to the point. Were it a documentary, yes, bring out their full story.

And the OMG DEATH PANEL is what will happen. It's overblown, but experiences like that of Barbara Wagner are what we know will happen:  

http://www.kval.com/news/26140519.html

Her doctor offered hope in the new chemotherapy drug Tarceva, but the Oregon Health Plan sent her a letter telling her the cancer treatment was not approved.

Instead, the letter said, the plan would pay for comfort care, including "physician aid in dying," better known as assisted suicide.

She's not being "euthanized", but rather told that extending her life is too expensive.

How is that "compassionate" and "universal"? Sorry, Granny, another year with your grandchildren costs too much. We'll pony up the dough for your suicide pills, though!

Or, maybe better stated by President Obama:

"That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,” he said in the April 14 interview. “The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health-care bill out here.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc

[MicroBalrog]

In the meanwhile, across the pond:

Health Secretary Andy Burnham has accused a Tory MEP who attacked the NHS on American TV of being "unpatriotic".

Labour has stepped up its criticism of Daniel Hannan, with John Prescott recording a YouTube message to the American people defending the NHS.

Tory leader David Cameron has insisted the NHS is his "number one priority" and dismissed Mr Hannan as "eccentric".

The MEP described Britain's health service a "60 year mistake" in a debate on Barack Obama's health reforms.

Labour and the Lib Dems have seized on the comments - and others made last week on Fox News - to claim that they represent the views of many in the Conservative Party.

Mr Burnham said: "What has happened within the last 48 hours is what Cameron has feared most because it lays bare the Tories' deep ambivalence towards the NHS."

'Insult'

And he hit back at criticism that the government had not done enough to defend the NHS from attacks in the US, saying: "We will stand up for the NHS and we will make sure that it is properly represented in the international media. And that is why what Mr Hannan has done disappoints me so much.

“ The Conservative Party stands four square behind the NHS ”
Conservative leader David Cameron

"I would almost feel... it is unpatriotic because he is talking in foreign media and not representing, in my view, the views of the vast majority of British people and actually, I think giving an unfair impression of the National Health Service himself, a British representative on foreign media."

He said Mr Hannan's words were an "insult" to the 1.4m NHS workers and "he should not be voicing those views in the foreign media in my view".

Former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott said he had recorded a video message to the American people, which is currently being uploaded on to the site, defending the NHS, which has come under fire from critics of Barack Obama's health reforms.

But Mr Cameron, who has sought to portray the Conservatives as the party of the NHS, and has said health spending will be protected from cuts under a Tory government, said the health service was a "great national institution".

"The Conservative Party stands four square behind the NHS," he told BBC News in his Oxfordshire constituency.

"We are the party of the NHS, we back it, we are going to expand it, we have ring-fenced it and said that it will get more money under a Conservative government, and it is our number one mission to improve it."

'Worst nightmare'

And he rebuked Mr Hannan, whose trenchant views on Europe and strongly-worded YouTube attack on Gordon Brown have gained him a following among grassroots Tories, saying: "He does have some quite eccentric views about some things, and political parties always include some people who don't toe the party line on one issue or another issue."

HAVE YOUR SAY I totally support the NHS. Emergency care is available for all - not just for those who can afford it Queenie Bishop, East Grinstead

The Leader of the Conservative group in the European Parliament has said he believes Mr Hannan should be disciplined for his comments about the NHS.

Timothy Kirkhope said Mr Hannan should be given a "stern talking-to" by the chief whip in Brussels, although he described the disciplinary process regarding Euro MPs as a grey area in this case, as Mr Hannan was speaking about a policy area not decided by the European Parliament.

Liberal Democrat health spokesman Norman Lamb claimed Mr Hannan's views, far from being "maverick", were shared by "many people within the Conservative Party".

He also hit back at criticisms of the NHS from Republican-supporting critics of Obama's health bill as a "gross distortion" of the truth about Britain's health service.

It comes after Prime Minister Gordon Brown joined a Twitter campaign to defend the NHS.

The welovetheNHS tag has received tens of thousands of messages of support during the past few days from NHS staff and former patients after it was branded "Orwellian" and "evil" by Republican critics of Mr Obama's health reforms.

The prime minister took the unusual step of adding his voice to the campaign in a message posted from Downing Street's Twitter feed, in which he said "thanks for always being there". His wife Sarah, also sent a message of support to the campaign.

Many of the Twitter messages reacted angrily to Mr Hannan's criticism of the NHS, which he attacked on US TV, saying he "wouldn't wish it on anyone".

'Duped'

US critics of the NHS see it as an overly-bureaucratic "socialized" system which rations care.

But one British woman said she felt duped after becoming the unwitting star of an anti-Obama health campaign.

Kate Spall, who appeared in a US free market group's TV commercial opposing Mr Obama's health bill, said her views were misrepresented.

She told the Times: "It has been a bit of a nightmare. It was a real test of my naivety. I am a very trusting person and for me it has been a big lesson. I feel I was duped."

Ms Spall and fellow Briton Katie Brickell's descriptions of poor treatment at the hands of the NHS featured in the Conservatives for Patients' Rights (CPR) advert.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8200817.stm

Published: 2009/08/14 14:04:26 GMT

© BBC MMIX

[agricola]

Point 1: No, I don't support lying to people.

Point 2: For a commercial I have no problem with simply pointing out their experiences as consequences of a socialized health system. Commercials are by their nature short and to the point. Were it a documentary, yes, bring out their full story.

And the OMG DEATH PANEL is what will happen. It's overblown, but experiences like that of Barbara Wagner are what we know will happen:  

http://www.kval.com/news/26140519.html

She's not being "euthanized", but rather told that extending her life is too expensive.

How is that "compassionate" and "universal"? Sorry, Granny, another year with your grandchildren costs too much. We'll pony up the dough for your suicide pills, though!

Or, maybe better stated by President Obama:

"That’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues,” he said in the April 14 interview. “The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health-care bill out here.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc

Hang on, doesnt she live in a country with the worlds best healthcare?  Surely she could have just got insurance?

[buzz_knox]

Will it?  It isnt even reality over here....

Have you read what Obama's advisors support?  What Obama himself wants?  What your system is rightly or wrongly accused of, he wants to bring to fruition here.

[makattak]

Hang on, doesnt she live in a country with the worlds best healthcare?  Surely she could have just got insurance?

Yep. And we still have socialized healthcare here too: Oregon healthcare, Medicare, Medicaid. (Edit: Forgot the lovely example of Massachusetts as well.)

And even with those examples we have those that think the government has run those so well, it should take over all of healthcare.