Another "compliance tasing"

[crt360]

While the arrest may have been justified, there was no reason to tase the woman as she posed no risk to the officers well being and he could have easily subdued her without the taser.

Actually, based on her behavior up to that point, attempting to subdue the wily old lady, on the side of a busy highway without the taser would have posed significant risk to the safety of the officer, the lady, and passing motorists who might have had to take evasive action to dodge her.  I find it difficult to fault the deputy's judgment or actions.  

MB, if you make it to the U.S. and end up in Texas, please sign your ticket if you are stopped and given one.  If you don't, you will be arrested.  There is no pleasant way to be arrested.  If you argue and try to run off, the police will chase you.  If they catch you, you'll pray for the mild treatment this lady received.  In addition to the speeding ticket, you'll probably be charged with resisting arrest, assault on a public servant, evasion, reckless endangerment and who knows what else.  They might even find an illegal weapon or drugs in your vehicle.  If they don't catch you immediately, they will hunt you down.

As for the non-compliant folks lying down in your country, there is little need for tasering since they are already lying on the ground.  I would assume the cops can just cuff them and carry them off, like they do here.

[Balog]

My argument is very simple. In some, very limited instances, if a person is so old or otherwise frail that they could be seriously hurt by even a moderate application nonlethal force, the risk to their lives in tasing them is so high that it is better to let them "get away" with something as minor as this than to risk killing them outright. Nowhere did I say that anybody that resists arrest nonviolently should be let go. (Although down here we just grab them by their legs and arms and drag them towards the police car).

And the officer determines the relative health of a suspect... how? If you put that standard in place, watch all the young but frail people getting subdued then suing.

Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for tazer as electric whip. But I also have no time for people being obstinate fools, resisting arrest, then whining when they get subdued.

[lupinus]

So at a certain age the same laws should not apply?

How about someone in their 20's who isn't noticeably disabled?  How do you make the determination.

Force is fine, but appropriate force which I think was exceeded.

The officer could have very easily grabbed her arm, brought it around, and cuffed her.  Bruise?  Sure maybe.  Unless she seriously resisted the risk of anything more then that would have been very small.  Smaller then an electric shock and fall to the ground IMO, esspecially at her age.

If she assaulted him in the process, then force can and should escalate accordingly.

[MicroBalrog]

And the officer determines the relative health of a suspect... how? If you put that standard in place, watch all the young but frail people getting subdued then suing.

Obviously you can't avoid all the risks in the world. But police officers should know – because it's part of the Taser company's disclaimers  -that tasers pose a heightened risk to some people. If a person is obviously very old, or in a wheelchair, and so forth, then it's that much more likely that they have a medical condition, or a device inside their body that makes it unsafe to tase them or physically assault them. Obviously police officers can't make medical judgements on the fly, but if a person is obviously old or disabled, they shouldn't get the same treatment as young and seemingly-healthy people.

MB, if you make it to the U.S. and end up in Texas,

If I make it to the US and end up in Texas, it is my intent to live out my life as a law-abiding citizen of your fine country. It'd be bizarre to immigrate into a country and not respect its laws. However, do you really think it's okay that police officers “find” illegal weapons or drugs in people's vehicles?

[Perd Hapley]

The officer could have very easily grabbed her arm, brought it around, and cuffed her.  

I would have thought so, too, but apparently not.Watch the video. He tried that.  He failed.

[makattak]

I would have thought so, too, but apparently not.Watch the video. He tried that.  He failed.

Yep. That's why I keep asking, should he have roughed her up or tazed her?

It's not, "oh, he could have been gentle". He had the choice of roughing her up or tazing her. Which would you all choose?

[lupinus]

I would have thought so, too, but apparently not.Watch the video. He tried that.  He failed.

To clarify, I did go back and watch the video.

She was a moron, she got arrested.  He could have subdued her without use of a taser IMO as she posed no risk to him.

[freakazoid]

Having not seen the video yet, I'm actually going to have to side with the officer. He gave her multiple warnings, more than you would think he would normally give before resorting to action. Although I would think he could of tried harder to grab her, haven't seen the video so I can't say on how hard he tried. It just says that he tried to grab her but she twisted away. Maybe he was afraid of using actual force and hurting her so he thought it would be better to taze her, don't know what they are taught.

[Perd Hapley]

I would have thought that a younger man of his size would have been able to very easily cuff an older, smaller lady like that.  But apparently not. 

[lupinus]

I would have thought that a younger man of his size would have been able to very easily cuff an older, smaller lady like that.  But apparently not. 

He likely could have and choose to use the taser to gain compliance rather then just cuffing her.

[makattak]

He likely could have and choose to use the taser to gain compliance rather then just cuffing her.

Honestly, have may have thought she'd receive less damage from a tazing than getting tossed around. At the very least we know she suffered no lasting damage from the tazing (otherwise, I'm sure it would have come into the lawsuit by now). Would she have suffered damage from getting roughed up?... I'm betting yes.

[Balog]

Micro: go work the Alzheimer's ward in a prison then come back and tell us about the poor frail old people who should be treated with kid gloves when they resist arrest.

[MicroBalrog]

Micro: go work the Alzheimer's ward in a prison then come back and tell us about the poor frail old people who should be treated with kid gloves when they resist arrest.

I'm sure there are old people who commit heinous crimes. That is irrelevant here.

[Perd Hapley]

He likely could have and choose to use the taser to gain compliance rather then just cuffing her.

First, how do you know this?

Second, as others have pointed out, it is just as probable that he was adhering to his training.  That may explain why his superiors have backed him up. 

[Balog]

I'm sure there are old people who commit heinous crimes. That is irrelevant here.

Actually, the point is that a lot of "frail old people" are extreme physical dangers. So "Zomg they're old don't taze them bro" is silly.

[MicroBalrog]

Actually, the point is that a lot of "frail old people" are extreme physical dangers. So "Zomg they're old don't taze them bro" is silly.

It is extremely silly. It's not what I said.

[Balog]

It is extremely silly. It's not what I said.

Pretty much is, actually.

[roo_ster]

I posed a scenario and asked for both a solution and an explanation of how/why that solution would leave the functioning of policing intact.

You suggested "verbal judo" without explaining how/why that would achieve the results desired.  That, sir, is cheating or cowardice - I've not decided which.

I may be a pompous ass, but I have the balls to give a complete response when accepting a challenge to do so.  Given your, and others', claims that there are other ways to achieve the desired results but an apparent unwillingness to explain/describe how those results would be achieved, I prefer to be a pompous ass.

stay safe.

skidmark

RIF

You fail.

[freakazoid]

Watched video, I'd say that the tasering was overboard. When he tried to cuff her by grabbing her hand all she did was yank it away then he didn't try again. He clearly grabs her by the shoulders later to keep her away from him. The supposed shove didn't really look like a shove, just him trying to get her a little farther away from him. Also it didn't look like she was walking as if she wasn't aware of the road, she was simply walking away from him to get to a spot to yell at him.

edit - woops, did my math wrong. 

[roo_ster]

Nobody seems to want to think past first-order consequences: Deputy Donuthole, Granny, most posters on this thread.

And the officer determines the relative health of a suspect... how? If you put that standard in place, watch all the young but frail people getting subdued then suing.

By using his head as something other than a hat rack?

Maybe, just maybe, Deputy Donuthole could use:

Judgment
Discernment
Experience
An eye to unintended consequences
A sense of scale and relative danger to the community

to aid him in his job, rather than the Cartmanesque display on the tape.

My argument is very simple. In some, very limited instances, if a person is so old or otherwise frail that they could be seriously hurt by even a moderate application nonlethal force, the risk to their lives in tasing them is so high that it is better to let them "get away" with something as minor as this than to risk killing them outright. Nowhere did I say that anybody that resists arrest nonviolently should be let go. (Although down here we just grab them by their legs and arms and drag them towards the police car).

This^^^. 

Granny poses no risk(1) to the public by driving away from this.  Just because one has authority to do some things does not mean it is wise to do some things. 

The change I would make to MB's post is that I would take note of granny's ID data: DL#, car tag#, Name, Home Addy, etc.  Something Deputy Donuthole already had access to.

Using that data, get a warrant for her arrest.  And execute it, say...at her home.  Or, better yet, call her and ask her to come in to get booked and bring a lawyer if she likes.  Yeah, she's old and frail, but she earned her ticket and her arrest.  All things in good time.

Granny will still end up booked, but the likelihood of her or Deputy Donuthole getting killed by a passing auto or granny dying because the taser is too much for her system have been eliminated.  See, Granny is a citizen and taxpayer and her well-being ought to count for something, at least some fraction of the value of Deputy Donuthole's life and ego.

Add to that, there then exists no tape of granny getting tased to get folk all riled up and pissed off at Deputy Donuthole, the Travis County Sheriff's Dept, and LEOs in general.


(1) If she were a risk to others, use whatever means necessary to get her under control.

[FTA84]

Some people expect way too much for police officers.

You want them to be medics, lawyers, psychiatrists, super athletes and your best friend, all while still be willing to take a bullet from a doped up crackhead.

Good luck in your search for superman.

In the real world, this particular officer is good enough for me.

[jackdanson]

Meh, she got what was coming.  I'm unsure on using a taser to gain compliance, would wrestling her to the ground have been better?  I'd think she'd be more likely to suffer injuries being wrestled to the ground.

That being said the officer definetly has the "I'm the tough guy in charge here" attitude.  He could have talked her into complying before she even got out of the car.  "Verbal Judo" works... gain compliance without fighting, it doesn't matter if you aren't coming across as a badass, his goal is to get the woman to sign the sheet, not prove a point.

her: ok then take me to jail.
cop: step on out (in challenging manner)

Then they both continue to escalate it further and further.

His response should have been.
cop: ma'am, I understand your frustration, I really do, but here's the situation:  I really don't want to arrest you, and I'm sure you don't want that either, it would ruin both of our days.  So, you have a choice, I can arrest you, ruining both our day and causing us both a huge headache, or you can sign this, get a lawyer and pay a small fine.

Also, when she said "give it to me, I'll sign it" he should have said OK, here you go, and good day to you ma'am.

[crt360]

Here's a local version of it:  http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/news/national/dpgo_Video_Elderly_Texas_Woman_Tasered_SAB_06092009_2555591

However, do you really think it's okay that police officers “find” illegal weapons or drugs in people's vehicles?

Plants, throwdowns and illegal searches?  No, I don't think it's okay.  I'm not a big fan of the increasingly frequent use of tasers, either.  If the state wanted to pass a law limiting their use only to situations where the police officer believed his life was at risk, and go back to clubbing, punching and grappling with the average non-compliant, that's fine.

jackdanson, I agree about the officer taking the attitude thing up a bit too high, but I believe that's the way most law enforcement are trained around here - don't ever let the perp, suspect, violator, whatever, feel like they are in a position of authority.  I've seen cops go full tilt on people who were far more compliant than the lady in the video.

Here's an interesting quote from another article about the incident:

"Our policy says the Taser is used when there is physical noncompliance. If he (Deputy Bieze) had not used the Taser, Constable McCain would have dealt with him harshly."

http://www.oakhillgazette.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=73&twindow=Default&mad=No&sdetail=2265&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=1846&hn=oakhillgazette&he=.net

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Granny poses no risk(1) to the public by driving away from this.  Just because one has authority to do some things does not mean it is wise to do some things.

so granny speeding is ok?  25 over?

[seeker_two]

You have not finished your assignment.  If you desire an extension one will be granted.  However, an incomplete answer will result in a grade of FD - Failure by Dishonesty.

stay safe.

skidmark

First off....

Second.... try clicking on the link and reading the site before you start typing responses. If you do, you will find a method that the officer could have used that would have prevented this situation from escalating into a shock-fest in the first place--which should be the primary goal. Nothing is more scary than a LEO looking for a fight....they often find one...and sometimes it's a fight that they lose...

Third.... both parties are at fault in this situation. Best thing that can happen in this case is that all charges and suits are dismissed with prejudice and they go their separate ways.  And the LEO in question receive some training in non-electrical, verbal compliance methods. It may save his life later on....