Author Topic: Stupid environmental lawsuit  (Read 2919 times)

jefnvk

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« on: December 17, 2005, 01:55:41 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/12/16/polar.bears.ap/index.html

Now, I must say it is creative.  File a lawsuit to get Polar Bears protected, then file a lawsuit to reduce greenhouse emmissions on the basis that they are melting ice, causing Polar Bears harm.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

brimic

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2005, 02:20:13 PM »
Quote
In the case of the polar bear, the environmentalists hope to force the government to curb U.S. emissions of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide.

The Center for Biological Diversity, the Natural Resources Defense Council and Greenpeace said extensive scientific evidence shows sea ice is melting because of global warming.

"Global warming and rising temperatures in the Arctic jeopardize the polar bear's very existence," said Melanie Duchin of Greenpeace.
Do the Polar bears a favor and quit breathing Melanie.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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Jamisjockey

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2005, 02:55:37 PM »
Favored tactic of the left:
Attempt to legislate.  
Lose.  
Sue.
JD

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Sindawe

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2005, 03:02:57 PM »
Hmmmm....  Those who would defend animals from human activities are castigated when they use violent means (and rightly so).  Then, when they attempt to use the methods of our culture to achive their ends they are ridiculed.

So what would you folks suggest?  Do you even know whats occurring with the sea ice in the Arctic?
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

brimic

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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2005, 03:42:27 PM »
Quote
So what would you folks suggest?
Shut off the power, stop the oil pumps, revert back to a preindustrial age. Sure, billions of people will starve to death and die of disease, but there is at least a tiny small chance that we will keep the polar bears happy- that's unless hungry people don't hunt them to extinction first.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

jefnvk

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2005, 05:22:51 PM »
If they want to reduce gashouse emissions, work on doing that.  Don't try to get polar bears listed as protected and then use that as an excuse as why we have to reduce emissions.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

Standing Wolf

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2005, 06:00:48 PM »
The polar bears should file their own @#$^%^&*! law suits!
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

Modifiedbrowning

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2005, 08:43:10 PM »
I think it's great that people think Evolution Theory makes a lot of sense, except when they see it in action.
Adapt or Die, right?
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stevelyn

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 02:57:18 AM »
Quote from: Sindawe
Hmmmm....  Those who would defend animals from human activities are castigated when they use violent means (and rightly so).  Then, when they attempt to use the methods of our culture to achive their ends they are ridiculed.

So what would you folks suggest?  Do you even know whats occurring with the sea ice in the Arctic?
Uhmmm..................IF there is global warming (I still remember global cooling being preached by the eco-nazis 30 years ago) it isn't being caused by human activity.

We've only been keeping weather records since about the mid 1860s. That's not long enough to make a valid conclusion.

I think the earth and weather is going through a natural climatic cycle. Evidence shows the earth has gone through warming and cooling periods for millions of years.

The Chicken Little crowd is really misdirecting their efforts. For if we are going through a climatic cycle the effort needs to be placed on how we are going to adapt to it rather than wasting time and effort fruitlessly trying to stop the change.
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grampster

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 12:03:53 PM »
Read Dr. (Governor) Dixie Lee Ray's "Trashing the Planet"    An interesting book written by a woman in her 80's with a couple Phd's, no ax to grind, a lifetime of observation and the courage to debunk some major BS.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Stand_watie

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 04:09:37 PM »
I just got done reading Michael Chrichton's "State of Fear". It's a must read for people who have formed their opinions about environmental issues (global warming particularly) from popular media. It's an excellent novel (my paperback was about 600 pages) with about 150 pages of scientifically sourced, footnoted and bibliographed information on Chrichton's understanding of the reality vs popular perception.

What really surprised me is that I don't recall any media furor when the book was published, as I expected when a mainstream grade A author excoriates the media and most of the "environmental" groups.  



This is the appendix to the book, taken from his website

http://www.crichton-official.com/fear/

Why Politicized Science is Dangerous
(Excerpted from State of Fear)

Imagine that there is a new scientific theory that warns of an impending crisis, and points to a way out.

This theory quickly draws support from leading scientists, politicians and celebrities around the world. Research is funded by distinguished philanthropies, and carried out at prestigious universities. The crisis is reported frequently in the media. The science is taught in college and high school classrooms.

I don't mean global warming. I'm talking about another theory, which rose to prominence a century ago.

Its supporters included Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and Winston Churchill. It was approved by Supreme Court justices Oliver Wendell Holmes and Louis Brandeis, who ruled in its favor. The famous names who supported it included Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone; activist Margaret Sanger; botanist Luther Burbank; Leland Stanford, founder of Stanford University; the novelist H. G. Wells; the playwright George Bernard Shaw; and hundreds of others. Nobel Prize winners gave support. Research was backed by the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations. The Cold Springs Harbor Institute was built to carry out this research, but important work was also done at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and Johns Hopkins. Legislation to address the crisis was passed in states from New York to California.

These efforts had the support of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Medical Association, and the National Research Council. It was said that if Jesus were alive, he would have supported this effort.

All in all, the research, legislation and molding of public opinion surrounding the theory went on for almost half a century. Those who opposed the theory were shouted down and called reactionary, blind to reality, or just plain ignorant. But in hindsight, what is surprising is that so few people objected.

Today, we know that this famous theory that gained so much support was actually pseudoscience. The crisis it claimed was nonexistent. And the actions taken in the name of theory were morally and criminally wrong. Ultimately, they led to the deaths of millions of people.

The theory was eugenics, and its history is so dreadful --- and, to those who were caught up in it, so embarrassing --- that it is now rarely discussed. But it is a story that should be well know to every citizen, so that its horrors are not repeated.

The theory of eugenics postulated a crisis of the gene pool leading to the deterioration of the human race. The best human beings were not breeding as rapidly as the inferior ones --- the foreigners, immigrants, Jews, degenerates, the unfit, and the "feeble minded." Francis Galton, a respected British scientist, first speculated about this area, but his ideas were taken far beyond anything he intended. They were adopted by science-minded Americans, as well as those who had no interest in science but who were worried about the immigration of inferior races early in the twentieth century --- "dangerous human pests" who represented "the rising tide of imbeciles" and who were polluting the best of the human race.

The eugenicists and the immigrationists joined forces to put a stop to this. The plan was to identify individuals who were feeble-minded --- Jews were agreed to be largely feeble-minded, but so were many foreigners, as well as blacks --- and stop them from breeding by isolation in institutions or by sterilization.

As Margaret Sanger said, "Fostering the good-for-nothing at the expense of the good is an extreme cruelty & there is not greater curse to posterity than that of bequeathing them an increasing population of imbeciles." She spoke of the burden of caring for "this dead weight of human waste."

Such views were widely shared. H.G. Wells spoke against "ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens." Theodore Roosevelt said that "Society has no business to permit degenerates to reproduce their kind." Luther Burbank" "Stop permitting criminals and weaklings to reproduce." George Bernard Shaw said that only eugenics could save mankind.

There was overt racism in this movement, exemplified by texts such as "The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy" by American author Lothrop Stoddard. But, at the time, racism was considered an unremarkable aspect of the effort to attain a marvelous goal --- the improvement of humankind in the future. It was this avant-garde notion that attracted the most liberal and progressive minds of a generation. California was one of twenty-nine American states to pass laws allowing sterilization, but it proved the most-forward-looking and enthusiastic --- more sterilizations were carried out in California than anywhere else in America.

Eugenics research was funded by the Carnegie Foundation, and later by the Rockefeller Foundation. The latter was so enthusiastic that even after the center of the eugenics effort moved to Germany, and involved the gassing of individuals from mental institutions, the Rockefeller Foundation continued to finance German researchers at a very high level. (The foundation was quiet about it, but they were still funding research in 1939, only months before the onset of World War II.)

Since the 1920s, American eugenicists had been jealous because the Germans had taken leadership of the movement away from them. The Germans were admirably progressive. They set up ordinary-looking houses where "mental defectives" were brought and interviewed one at a time, before being led into a back room, which was, in fact, a gas chamber. There, they were gassed with carbon monoxide, and their bodies disposed of in a crematorium located on the property.

Eventually, this program was expanded into a vast network of concentration camps located near railroad lines, enabling the efficient transport and of killing ten million undesirables.

After World War II, nobody was a eugenicist, and nobody had ever been a eugenicist. Biographers of the celebrated and the powerful did not dwell on the attractions of this philosophy to their subjects, and sometimes did not mention it at all. Eugenics ceased to be a subject for college classrooms, although some argue that its ideas continue to have currency in disguised form.

But in retrospect, three points stand out. First, despite the construction of Cold Springs Harbor Laboratory, despite the efforts of universities and the pleadings of lawyers, there was no scientific basis for eugenics. In fact, nobody at that time knew what a gene really was. The movement was able to proceed because it employed vague terms never rigorously defined. "Feeble-mindedness" could mean anything from poverty to illiteracy to epilepsy. Similarly, there was no clear definition of "degenerate" or "unfit."

Second, the eugenics movement was really a social program masquerading as a scientific one. What drove it was concern about immigration and racism and undesirable people moving into one's neighborhood or country. Once again, vague terminology helped conceal what was really going on.

Third, and most distressing, the scientific establishment in both the United States and Germany did not mount any sustained protest. Quite the contrary. In Germany scientists quickly fell into line with the program. Modern German researchers have gone back to review Nazi documents from the 1930s. They expected to find directives telling scientists what research should be done. But none were necessary. In the words of Ute Deichman, "Scientists, including those who were not members of the [Nazi] party, helped to get funding for their work through their modified behavior and direct cooperation with the state." Deichman speaks of the "active role of scientists themselves in regard to Nazi race policy & where [research] was aimed at confirming the racial doctrine & no external pressure can be documented." German scientists adjusted their research interests to the new policies. And those few who did not adjust disappeared.

A second example of politicized science is quite different in character, but it exemplifies the hazard of government ideology controlling the work of science, and of uncritical media promoting false concepts. Trofim Denisovich Lysenko was a self-promoting peasant who, it was said, "solved the problem of fertilizing the fields without fertilizers and minerals." In 1928 he claimed to have invented a procedure called vernalization, by which seeds were moistened and chilled to enhance the later growth of crops.

Lysenko's methods never faced a rigorous test, but his claim that his treated seeds passed on their characteristics to the next generation represented a revival of Lamarckian ideas at a time when the rest of the world was embracing Mendelian genetics. Josef Stalin was drawn to Lamarckian ideas, which implied a future unbounded by hereditary constraints; he also wanted improved agricultural production. Lysenko promised both, and became the darling of a Soviet media that was on the lookout for stories about clever peasants who had developed revolutionary procedures.

Lysenko was portrayed as a genius, and he milked his celebrity for all it was worth. He was especially skillful at denouncing this opponents. He used questionnaires from farmers to prove that vernalization increased crop yields, and thus avoided any direct tests. Carried on a wave of state-sponsored enthusiasm, his rise was rapid. By 1937, he was a member of the Supreme Soviet.

By then, Lysenko and his theories dominated Russian biology. The result was famines that killed millions, and purges that sent hundreds of dissenting Soviet scientists to the gulags or the firing squads. Lysenko was aggressive in attacking genetics, which was finally banned as "bourgeois pseudoscience" in 1948. There was never any bias for Lysenko's ideas, yet he controlled Soviet research for thirty years. Lysenkoism ended in the 1960s, but Russian biology still has not entirely recovered from that era.

Now we are engaged in a great new theory that once again has drawn the support of politicians, scientists, and celebrities around the world. Once again, the theory is promoted by major foundations. Once again, the research is carried out at prestigious universities. Once again, legislation is passed and social programs are urged in its name. Once again, critics are few and harshly dealt with.

Once again, the measures being urged have little basis in fact or science. Once again, groups with other agendas are hiding behind a movement that appears high-minded. Once again, claims of moral superiority are used to justify extreme actions. Once again, the fact that some people are hurt is shrugged off because an abstract cause is said to be greater than any human consequences. Once again, vague terms like sustainability and generational justice --- terms that have no agreed definition --- are employed in the service of a new crisis.

I am not arguing that global warming is the same as eugenics. But the similarities are not superficial. And I do claim that open and frank discussion of the data, and of the issues, is being suppressed. Leading scientific journals have taken strong editorial positions of the side of global warming, which, I argue, they have no business doing. Under the circumstances, any scientist who has doubts understands clearly that they will be wise to mute their expression.

One proof of this suppression is the fact that so many of the outspoken critics of global warming are retired professors. These individuals are not longer seeking grants, and no longer have to face colleagues whose grant applications and career advancement may be jeopardized by their criticisms.

In science, the old men are usually wrong. But in politics, the old men are wise, counsel caution, and in the end are often right.

The past history of human belief is a cautionary tale. We have killed thousands of our fellow human beings because we believed they had signed a contract with the devil, and had become witches. We still kill more than a thousand people each year for witchcraft. In my view, there is only one hope for humankind to emerge from what Carl Sagan called "the demon-haunted world" of our past. That hope is science.

But as Alston Chase put it, "when the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power."

That is the danger we now face. And this is why the intermixing of science and politics is a bad combination, with a bad history. We must remember the history, and be certain that what we present to the world as knowledge is disinterested and honest
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matis

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2005, 07:54:58 PM »
H.G. Wells spoke against "ill-trained swarms of inferior citizens."

Wells must have been prescient: just look around you, today.



Seriously, Stand_watie, it appears that you, too, have no mercy for me.


I was complaining just the other day to Grampster about this.  His post prompted me to buy the book, WANDERERS.

Now, all on account of you, I just ordered STATE OF FEAR -- 600 pages, yet!


As it is, I'm about 16 books behind in my reading.  They were stacked on the kitchen table, mixed in with the magazines, so I thought I was only 10-12 behind.

But I got tired of having to peek around them to see the GF when we eat.  (She's easy on me eyes, which aids digestion, doesn't it?)

So today I moved them to the dining room table.  There's 16 of 'em and now another 600 pager on the way.  And who knows, I might stumble on a few others I've stashed here and there.  I might have to take a holiday from APS so that 1) I can have some time to read, and 2) I can stop buying more of 'em (for awhile).



I'd never read anything by Michael Crichton.  Your post above from his web page  is excellent.  I gotta read the book.  Probably take me about 6 months, or so to get to it.


Thanks for posting that.



matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.

matis

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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2005, 08:29:04 PM »
Quote from: Blackburn
Seriously. Open it up, look for the list of everything else he has read. Borrow it or buy it. Congo, Sphere, Eaters of the Dead, the Jurassic park books, Timeline, and to a lesser extent Airframe, Rising Sun, and Disclosure. Those ones. Read Travels and Five patients. Then read some of the fiction ones again if you want to see parallels with his life and views in the fictional books.

Then read State of Fear.[/b]
Like I was sayin' Blackburn, you guys are sadists!

I was just groaning about how far behind I've fallen with my reading.

So what do you do?  You add another 10-12 books to my list!

Boy, who needs enemies?   Wink


I'll do the best I can.   rolleyes



(Thanks)



matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.

Stand_watie

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2005, 02:26:17 PM »
Blackburn, I agree with you about 'Prey'. Most of his books are informative, and almost all of them are great reading.

Matis, this particular book is actually harder reading than most of his work because he bogs down the plotline with all the extra information. It's obviously a labor of love on his part, but if I were his editor I'd have begged him to move about 100 pages of the mini-lectures and graphs within the book back to a second apendix or to have published it as a two volume set - one a novel and the other a non fiction. It would have had a lot better commercial appeal that way and a lot more chance for a major movie.

I'm sure a lot more people will actually read the factual information he presents this way, but it hurts the book from the perspective of readability - I suspect he's at the point now where he doesn't care about making money anymore.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

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grampster

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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2005, 03:37:24 PM »
Good Books + Florida Sunshine =  Contentment.

You need two to three weeks of vacation time, though.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Art Eatman

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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2005, 12:57:03 PM »
Suggested reading:  Bjorn Lomborg's "the Skeptical Environmentalist".  he's a statistician who dropped out of Greenpeace when he found out they were full of beans about the environmental problems they claimed as "true reality".  The Sierra Club hates him, too.

Basically, he applies objective statistical analysis to alleged "problems" and generally refutes the arguments.  Much like Wright/Rossi/Daly, Gary Kleck, John Lott and others have done to the anti-gun arguments...

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

matis

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Stupid environmental lawsuit
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2005, 02:08:26 PM »
Suggested reading:  Bjorn Lomborg's "the Skeptical Environmentalist".


See what I mean?



matis
Si vis pacem; para bellum.