Author Topic: Can you say "Birth Control??"  (Read 28245 times)

taurusowner

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2009, 11:33:55 PM »
It's not about doing some chores.  It's about the amount and extent that would have to be involved with a household that is roughly 3-5 times larger than normal families.  Taking out the trash, mowing the lawn, and that sort of thing is one thing.  Being responsible for multiple other humans day and night because the parents are too busy dealing with others is something different entirely.  And chores are something I honestly expect from younger children.  Once a teen reaches high school, I expect them to be focusing on doing their homework, getting a part time job, learning to pay their own bills, thinking about college, and perhaps doing sports or the arts.  This stage in life is where I expect people to start breaking away from the immediate family group and start thinking about their own lives, and maybe their own families.  Not become even more immersed in the lives of others.  How many part time jobs do you think the older Duggars have?  How many sports or arts programs do you think they are involved in?  How much time do you think they spend with their own friends, or having study groups at the houses of school mates?

In a family of say 5, the oldest has enough time to do a few things around the house, help the parents with the youngest on occasion when necessary, and still have time to start molding their own life.  I don't see this as practical with a family of nearly 20.  And I think the eldest are getting shortchanged in terms of building the start of their own lives because of it.

If I ever have kids, and one of them is 17, while another is still a young child, I expect the 17 year old to be too busy working and getting good grades to help me with the other child I chose to have.  If I had 19 kids, and I needed the eldest to help babysit 4 or 5 young children some weekday evening, an entirely appropriate response from said eldest would be "I can't.  I have basketball practice and then work."  Something tells me the eldest Duggars don't take part in too many sports, extracurricular academics, or jobs.  And that's a shame.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 11:41:01 PM by Ragnar Danneskjold »

Stand_watie

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #101 on: September 07, 2009, 11:34:46 PM »
but the older kids are adults.... or they are in your world when its convenient to your goals. i spent quite a bit of time caring for my siblings  more so than most of my friends in my case it "was a japanese thing" that my haole friends thought was weird.  heck my lil bro lived with me on and off into his late 30's. wasn't that big a deal  in many ways an honor   i did the kitchen floors in my house  all the time for almost a decade  cleaned a toilet or 2   never fantasized that was abuse

I did all three of those chores as a child. Nothing wrong with it if under the proper supervision that what I've seen of the Duggar's causes me to believe is no less thorough than that my parents gave me (and they only had four of us)

Now deciding to take Grandma off life support? Killing a man to defend home/hearth? Working out national legal policy regarding early term abortion? Yeah, that's maybe too much to ask of a child.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #102 on: September 07, 2009, 11:34:52 PM »
I would not mix three year olds and log splitters.  She may not be in any danger, but could put you in some.  Granted you should keep your hands out of the way anyhow.  Still. 
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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #103 on: September 07, 2009, 11:39:29 PM »
Quote
So, would it be reasonable to ask of a six-year-old to do dishes? All the time?
No. Six-year-olds can't be trusted not to break the various dishes you have (by accident), may not be tall enough to reach the place where you store those dishes.

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What about asking an eight-year-old to clean toilets?

I did, at about that age.

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Fix roofs?
Nope. You want talented folk working on the roof, otherwise you may be left with a bigger hole than what you started with.

And FTR, having hired help to wash dishes/sweep floors/etc is not too common in the US. Either the kids or parents (or both) do it.

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2009, 11:41:01 PM »
I would not mix three year olds and log splitters.  She may not be in any danger, but could put you in some.  Granted you should keep your hands out of the way anyhow.  Still. 

I think if she's just pulling the handle under supervision it'd not be a big deal.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #105 on: September 07, 2009, 11:43:34 PM »
I would not mix three year olds and log splitters.  She may not be in any danger, but could put you in some.  Granted you should keep your hands out of the way anyhow.  Still. 


congratulations!  you sir have split some wood! and are the first one to correctly assess the risks.  i hada make real sure she didn't get a finger off me. thankfully splitter moves slow and i wasn't trying to set a speed record. i won't wear gloves doing that kinda stuff rather get splinter than give  a finger up.
if this kid didn't look like me i'd think she was someone elses.  shes disturbingly calm and mature.  her sister on the other hand would think it was cool to see how close she could come to "getting me"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #106 on: September 07, 2009, 11:45:12 PM »
now the time she followed me up a ladder to a third story roof on the other hand was scary. she had a good reason though  she needed me to take her to go potty
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #107 on: September 08, 2009, 12:12:39 AM »
How many part time jobs do you think the older Duggars have?  How many sports or arts programs do you think they are involved in?  How much time do you think they spend with their own friends, or having study groups at the houses of school mates?
Some darned good questions.  I'm not intimately familiar with the Duggars, so does anyone else know these details?

In a family of say 5, the oldest has enough time to do a few things around the house, help the parents with the youngest on occasion when necessary, and still have time to start molding their own life.  I don't see this as practical with a family of nearly 20.  And I think the eldest are getting shortchanged in terms of building the start of their own lives because of it.
I don't see it being a problem.  With a family of 20 kids there are more younguns to be looked after, but then again there are proportionately more older sibs to help out.  I think it'd even out.

The question is, can the Duggar family make it work?  I've seen lots of supposition from people who can't imagine it working out, but no actual evidence that it's been a problem fpr them.

If I ever have kids, and one of them is 17, while another is still a young child, I expect the 17 year old to be too busy working and getting good grades to help me with the other child I chose to have.  If I had 19 kids, and I needed the eldest to help babysit 4 or 5 young children some weekday evening, an entirely appropriate response from said eldest would be "I can't.  I have basketball practice and then work."  Something tells me the eldest Duggars don't take part in too many sports, extracurricular academics, or jobs.  And that's a shame.
That's an excellent example of "time management", a skill teenagers need to learn and practice before they get to college and move on to the real world. 

Try telling your boss or a prof "I can't, I don't have time".  Come back and tell me how well that worked out for you.

And again, I hafta ask if we have any solid reason for believing the Duggar situation is "a shame" beyond the assumption that it must be.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #108 on: September 08, 2009, 12:23:53 AM »
HTG spells it out.  If someone could give even some anecdotal evidence of the problems they've seen in large families, that would be one thing.  Speculation is interesting, but may not correspond to reality. 



congratulations!  you sir have split some wood! and are the first one to correctly assess the risks.  i hada make real sure she didn't get a finger off me. thankfully splitter moves slow and i wasn't trying to set a speed record.

Yes, I have split some wood.  With hydraulics and with muscle. 

Naturally, you know the kid.  I don't.  I'm not a parent anyhow.  I got a little nervous last winter, when there was a twenty-one-year-old manning the switch.  Maybe that's just me.   =)
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #109 on: September 08, 2009, 12:25:40 AM »
i don't think it was just you. that kinda gear can mess you up.  we had one of those fast double acting splitters on a john deer . it took 2 fingers when 2 young guys tried to work too fast
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #110 on: September 08, 2009, 12:33:34 AM »
Quote
but the older kids are adults.... or they are in your world when its convenient to your goals.

Then if they are adults, they should be entitled to tell me to shove it up my fat bum when I intrude on them.

Now again, I'm not saying it won't work.

And a .22LR pistol can stop a burglar, too. I still want a .45.
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taurusowner

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #111 on: September 08, 2009, 12:35:54 AM »
Some darned good questions.  I'm not intimately familiar with the Duggars, so does anyone else know these details?
I don't see it being a problem.  With a family of 20 kids there are more younguns to be looked after, but then again there are proportionately more older sibs to help out.  I think it'd even out.

The question is, can the Duggar family make it work?  I've seen lots of supposition from people who can't imagine it working out, but no actual evidence that it's been a problem fpr them.
That's an excellent example of "time management", a skill teenagers need to learn and practice before they get to college and move on to the real world. 

Try telling your boss or a prof "I can't, I don't have time".  Come back and tell me how well that worked out for you.

And again, I hafta ask if we have any solid reason for believing the Duggar situation is "a shame" beyond the assumption that it must be.

Time management does little to solve "Can you babysit from 330-730" and "I have work from 3-10".  You can't manage your way out of direct conflicts.  As one who partook in high school sports as well as jobs during high school, there are just times during the week where you simply have to be somewhere.  If you have to be at the pregame practice from right after school on Friday until the game starts, can you time-manage your way into being able to babysit at 4pm that same day?  Again, if it were a family of 5, I could see it working from time to time.  But with a family of 20, you know they need someone to watch the handful of babies every day.  One CAN time-manage their way through work and school and sports if they have to baby sit once a week or so.  But what about every day?  I just don't see it being even remotely realistic that the eldest are developing their own lives when there are 15 or so other children with wants and needs all the time.  And yes, I do see that as a shame.

And Micro makes a great point, if the eldest are adult enough to take on the responsibility of rearing a family while the parents are busy with another van-load of kids; they are adult enough to decide that they don't want to do it and would rather work 25 hours a week or so when not in school or practicing for the school musical.  All the responsibility and none of the privilege is a quick way to mess someone up.

I'll say it again, if I have kids, I'm going to have the number that I feel me and my wife can handle without burdening others.  I see it as the same when some 20 year old has a kid, and then offloads it her own moms house or daycare while she works every day.  If you can't handle the kid, don't have it.  If you can only handle 2 kids with you and your wife, don't have 4.  The moment you are required to burden someone else with your kids, is the moment you made a bad decision to have that many.  I expect the 15-18 year range, basically high school, to be a time when the children are learning to start their own lives, not pick up the slack of mine.  If my 17 year old son wanted to do the Army's split-op program and go to Basic before his senior year of HS, I would be all for it.  And I wouldn't let my need of a permanent in-house babysitter to get in the way of that goal.  I personally was in a musical program during and after high school that involved me touring the country all summer.  If my daughter wanted to play trumpet for a drum and bugle corps during the summer of her senior year, I would not let my own child-rearing needs get in the way of that either.  And if either of my older kids wanted to get a job(something I would strongly recommend), I would not have them cut their own hours to take care of my decision to have more kids.  Like I said, the high school years to me are a time for a teenager to start thinking about their own lives and future.  They need to learn what it's like to do their own thing, pay their own bills, manage their own time, choose their own responsibilities and live up to them, and live up to their own standards.  My decision to have more kids than I and my wife can personally handle would definitely infringe on that.  I see that as wrong.  When my decision to have more kids means others have to deny their own goals to make up for me, I have unjustly burdened others.


And I make these projections because I was a high school student not too long ago, and I still know what it was like.  School from 630-230 every weekday.  Tennis from 3-530 Mon, Wed, Fri.  Symphonic band practice Monday night from 6-8.  Drumline practice from 6-9 Tuesday and Thursday and from 9am-5pm Saturday.  And try to have Gamestop schedule me some hours every week.  If someone came up to me and said "I decided to have more kids than I can handle, I need you to quit your stuff and do my job for me" I would have told them to pound sand.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 12:52:51 AM by Ragnar Danneskjold »

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2009, 12:37:28 AM »
Then if they are adults, they should be entitled to tell me to shove it up my fat bum when I intrude on them.

Now again, I'm not saying it won't work.

And a .22LR pistol can stop a burglar, too. I still want a .45.

they are entitled  they are also entitled to be a part of their family.  as far as i know they neither seek nor require endorsement from others
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2009, 12:40:41 AM »
Their lack of caring about the opinions of others is very visible in the fact they made their life a reality TV show.
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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #114 on: September 08, 2009, 12:41:27 AM »
>a household that is roughly 3-5 times larger than normal families<

Can you do me a favor, and define "normal" here?

I'm going to guess that your assumption is that anything more than 4 children is "abnormal". With a corolation that "abnormal = doomed to fail".

That, unfortunately, isn't necessarily the case.

>How many part time jobs do you think the older Duggars have?  How many sports or arts programs do you think they are involved in?  How much time do you think they spend with their own friends, or having study groups at the houses of school mates?<

And that matters... how, exactly?

 The final "proof" will be as the children actually enter the workforce, leaving behind family and college. If they can function without being a drag on society, then I'd say they turned out fine. Until we have such evidence, we're just playing a game of "what if?"...
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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #115 on: September 08, 2009, 12:46:54 AM »
Their lack of caring about the opinions of others is very visible in the fact they made their life a reality TV show.

How so?


Ragnar,
Have you given us any evidence that your concerns are valid?  Maybe I missed something, but all I've seen is your imaginings about what you think must be going on.  Some data, facts, anecdote would be helpful here. 
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taurusowner

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #116 on: September 08, 2009, 12:57:49 AM »
>a household that is roughly 3-5 times larger than normal families<

Can you do me a favor, and define "normal" here?

I'm going to guess that your assumption is that anything more than 4 children is "abnormal". With a corolation that "abnormal = doomed to fail".

That, unfortunately, isn't necessarily the case.

>How many part time jobs do you think the older Duggars have?  How many sports or arts programs do you think they are involved in?  How much time do you think they spend with their own friends, or having study groups at the houses of school mates?<

And that matters... how, exactly?

 The final "proof" will be as the children actually enter the workforce, leaving behind family and college. If they can function without being a drag on society, then I'd say they turned out fine. Until we have such evidence, we're just playing a game of "what if?"...

It matters because once a person is a few years away from moving out, going to college, and starting a career; they need to starting learning how to live their lives for themselves, and not for their parents. 

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #117 on: September 08, 2009, 01:02:53 AM »
How so?


By going out in a public medium - making television appearances, becoming an actor or a politician - you expose your life to public criticism. The Duggars are doing it to promote their religious views and lifestyle.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #118 on: September 08, 2009, 01:03:23 AM »
It matters because once a person is a few years away from moving out, going to college, and starting a career; they need to starting learning how to live their lives for themselves, and not for their parents. 

You've got it backwards.  Growing up is all about growing out of your own little self-centered world and learning to accomodate others. 

You've got it backwards twice.  Responsibility helps kids mature.  It doesn't hold them back. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #119 on: September 08, 2009, 01:04:03 AM »
By going out in a public medium - making television appearances, becoming an actor or a politician - you expose your life to public criticism. The Duggars are doing it to promote their religious views and lifestyle.

That means they don't care what other people think?  ???  Here I thought they did it to make money and be famous. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #120 on: September 08, 2009, 01:05:15 AM »
You've got it backwards.  Growing up is all about growing out of your own little self-centered world and learning to accomodate others. 

And also by learning that you have a value as a person and your accommodation to others is not infinite.

Quote
You've got it backwards twice.  Responsibility helps kids mature.  It doesn't hold them back. 

Not all responsibility is equal in value.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #121 on: September 08, 2009, 01:06:04 AM »
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That means they don't care what other people think?  Huh?  Here I thought they did it to make money and be famous. 

I was being sarcastic. Of course if you go out and start a TV show about your life, you care what others think about your life. Or at least you should.
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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #122 on: September 08, 2009, 01:18:49 AM »
And also by learning that you have a value as a person and your accommodation to others is not infinite.

I would say this is absurd, but it got absurd a long time ago.  If large families make infinite, or even inadvisable, demands on older siblings, then of course there is a problem.  If the demands are inadvisable.  Which no one shows any evidence for.  They just assume the demand must be something more than is acceptable. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2009, 01:21:55 AM »
I have not assumed this. I have said it may happen. I see it happen with some of the families where I live [I live in a heavily-OJ neighborhood].

I have also not said that this constitutes child abuse as you attributed to me.
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Re: Can you say "Birth Control??"
« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2009, 02:26:04 AM »
Ragnar, 

You are making a lot of assumptions about the time required in helping our the parents.  Who says that the eldest children are expected to be home every single night and not allowed to have any other activities. I know plenty of "abnormally large" families that have their high school age kids involved in such activities as sports, music, theater, church related stuff, and jobs. Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't mean that it isn't the case.  They are expected to help out, schedule permitting.  That might mean helping fold clothes, doing the dishes (usually with a dishwasher) before going to bed, walking the dog in the morning or before going to bed, setting the table for dinner, taking the trash out, or yard work on the weekend.  Delegating these little things helps the whole household run a little more smoothly. These families could teach a lot of people something about time management.  They nearly always have a master calendar for activities and chores to make sure everyone is accommodated. 

One thing all of the families I have known of have in common is a spouse that does not have a career outside of the home.  So ultimately, responsibilities fall to the parent that is always there, not one of the poor oppressed children. Having at least one parent available for the children virtually all the time is what makes these families units work, not your imagined version of indentured servitude for the eldest.





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