Author Topic: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics  (Read 3900 times)

Iain

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Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« on: September 10, 2009, 05:49:08 PM »
Oh dear, reports are suggesting that 18 year old Caster Semenya's gender tests have shown that she has some form of inter-sex condition. The winner of the recent world 800 metres race in Berlin, an 18 year old who shot out of nearly nowhere and dominated, causing questions about steroid abuse which were quickly dismissed, and whose masculine appearance then caused rumours around her gender.

Other athletes that she beat were questioning her gender: “For me, she is not a woman,” - Elisa Piccione. The IAAF announced they were investigating. Semenya returned home, to a heroes welcome and the machine of race politics began to work:

"To the world out there who conducted those pseudo-tests: test our gender? They can stuff their insults, this is our little girl and nobody is going to perform any tests on her.

"We've had difficult situations in the history of this country. Don't touch us, don't touch us because if you dare, we will repeat it again if those who want to challenge us continue to insult us using our own people." - Winnie Madikizela-Mandela

"For a long time in this country we let people set the agenda for us. Let us set the agenda for ourselves. We are not going to allow Europeans to describe and define our children." - Leonard Chuene, the president of Athletics South Africa

It's all been handled appallingly, South African athletics perhaps should have done these tests themselves some time ago. The doubts over her gender should never have been made so public by the IAAF or her competitors. Immoderate comment in the media is potentially exceptionally damaging, apparently her coach found her watching a TV programme discussing the various intersex conditions she may have, before anyone else had explained any of that to her.

Whoever came up with this idea:



...should be flogged.

Santhi Soundarajan, stripped of a silver medal after the 2006 Asian games because of a 'failed' gender test apparently attempted to kill herself.

Caster Semenya - an 18 year old put through this sort of media scrutiny around one of the most intimate and potentially devastating medical diagnosis that one can receive, and used as an opportune stick by her own politicans. Completely and utterly failed by everyone it would seem.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 06:02:09 PM »
I agree.

S/he is a mere 18 years old, and something like this has the power to destroy someone's identity and sense of self-worth.  It should have been handled discretely by the IAAF and kept out of the media spotlight.

However.... I am also skeptical of her family's claims.  Someone who is a successful athlete has LOTS of opportunity to be examined thoroughly by doctors.  For many things, it is mandatory.  I have two Olympian athletes in my family... doctors are pervasive in such endeavors.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2631482/Runner-is-a-hermaphrodite.html

Quote
And Semenya's family have slammed the claims, saying: "It is God who made her look that way but she IS a girl."

...

Semenya's family also angrily disputed the claims.

The athlete's uncle Lesiba Rammabi, 51, said her relatives were 'very humiliated' by the reports.

He said: "I believe Caster is normal, inside and out.

"What does it matter whether she can have babies or not? Many people cannot have children, why else do parents adopt? Are those women not women also?

"We are a normal family who looked at a child when she was born, saw that she was a girl and raised her as any other family would do. Are we now being told that we are wrong?

"We are very humiliated by what has been said and do not understand how it can be true.

"This is a woman who was raised a female. She will always be female, no matter what people say."

I think the family had been informed at some point, and has known about this for quite awhile.
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zahc

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 07:37:24 PM »
It's all nothing but stupid rule quibbles anyway. The stopwatch shows she won the race. Period. She was faster. Now she's just being discriminated against on the basis of her genes.

It's funny how notions of gender equality are just completely thrown out the window and nobody gives a second thought about sexual discrimination when it comes to certain edge cases like sports, where then NOT being sexually exclusionist is seen as sexist.
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MechAg94

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 08:23:27 PM »
Is this a genetic issue or a potential steroid issue?  I'm confused.  (not about my gender)
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zahc

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2009, 09:01:55 PM »
It's a genetic issue. There are people that are interexed so that they have, for example, YYX or XXY rather than the normal XY or XX chromesomes. People suspect that she is of this type, and they say that if she was then she wouldn't be 'woman enough' for their rules, because she would be too good to compete with the rest of the normal women.

She's stronger and faster than the other competitors, so she finished better. Apparently one is supposed to be faster than the other women but not TOO much faster. Or something. It's really sad and I feel sorry for her. One would think that a person with an intersexed condition would be disadvantaged at certain areas of life (personal relationships, modeling potential), but excel at others (kicking ass in the races). But they aren't even letting her excel in women's sports.
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Stand_watie

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2009, 09:31:47 PM »
     How pathetic that the "race card" has become powerful enough of a political influence to be pulled by Africans in the running sport. The next thing you know Scandinavians will be claiming to be discriminated against in weightlifting competitions, Russians in chess competitions and American Jews by the A.M.A.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2009, 10:31:24 PM »
Sex and gender are way, way too complicated and way too poorly understood to try to make the kind of distinction that is being made here.  Participation in men's and women's athletic events should be based upon the type of external genitalia present at birth, or after revision in cases where external genitalia are ambiguous at birth.  Start delving in chromosomal issues and you just end up basically determining that anyone who doesn't fit an increasingly restrictive definition of who is what sex simply doesn't count.

It's not just the chromosomal stuff.  There is increasing evidence of a spectrum of gender identity and secondary sexual traits that are influenced by maternal hormones in various ways.  In women, high testosterone can be linked to better athletic performance.  Are women with high testosterone not real women either?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 10:35:30 PM »
See, this is why I'm not a big fan of athletic events in the first place.
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GigaBuist

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 11:28:55 PM »
Sex and gender are way, way too complicated and way too poorly understood to try to make the kind of distinction that is being made here.

I don't think we need to make it any more complicated than it is.  She has male reproductive organs.  She isn't exactly female scientifically speaking and that's all that matters.  If you're not a woman you don't get to compete with the women.  Off to the men's league with you.

I know it sounds harsh, but let me ramble for a bit here. 

In the world of track a very good high school male runner can do the mile faster than any woman ever  has.  I think the current record at my po-dunk high school was set back in 1977ish when there were about 20 kids per graduating class and it's 4:13.  The current women's world record is 4:12.56.  I bring that to our attention just to illustrate how wide the gender gap really is in sports.  There are thousands of men that have beaten the women's world record, and plenty of them managed to do it while they were still high school athletes.

Now, anybody remember the Chinese gymnastics team from the last Olympics?  The one with the underage girl?  Anybody remember the female weight liters from the Soviet bloc countries in the 80's?

There are countries out there that will cheat to win at these international games.  The rules around age restrictions in gymnastics aren't about fairness, they're there to keep little girls from being abused just so some nation's team can win a gold medal.

If we start permitting inter-sexed people that have external female genitalia to compete with "normal" women I don't doubt that within a few years we'll start seeing countries trying to genetically engineer super women or at least seeking them out and exploiting them.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 12:27:32 AM »
I don't think we need to make it any more complicated than it is.  She has male reproductive organs.  She isn't exactly female scientifically speaking and that's all that matters.  If you're not a woman you don't get to compete with the women.  Off to the men's league with you.

So, is male the default?  If she isn't exactly female, therefore she is male?  She has to affirmatively be a woman to compete as a woman, so does she have to affirmatively prove her maleness to compete as a man? 

GigaBuist

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 01:36:53 AM »
So, is male the default?  If she isn't exactly female, therefore she is male?
Well, yes, at least for international competitions under our current divisions.  Permitting anything but a female to compete in the female division would be unfair and as I said in my last post opens up a whole new arena of possible human rights issues in countries that don't much care for human rights.

She has to affirmatively be a woman to compete as a woman, so does she have to affirmatively prove her maleness to compete as a man?

Well, no, because for all practical purposes the men's sports are the "open" division.  Anything not female competes in that division.  The reason nobody bothers verifying everybody is a male in the men's division is because there has never, and will never, be a female that can compete with them in the arena of Track and Field.

Please note that I'm only commenting on the competition aspect of this issue.  I've continually referred to her in the female form because that's what she's always identified as and probably always will.  Socially speaking she's a woman and I will continue to refer to her as such unless she changes her mind on the matter.  I realize that gender and sex are entirely different matters for a small portion of the population and I respect that.  It's not a hangup for me at all. 

But you can't have people that are genetically male competing in women's events.  Sorry, it just can't work that way.  We could just do away with the sex based divisions but that would mean you'd never see a female competitor at the international, or even regional, level ever again.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2009, 04:18:40 AM »
The problem with the athletic competitions – or their advantage, to the spectator – is that all the rules therein are entirely arbitrary.

Women's javelin throwing is a competition where the javelin has to weight precisely 600 grams. It has to be thrown from a very particular, arbitrarily chosen position. The men's javelin is precisely 800 grams. There are lots of horribly, horribly convoluted rules that outline athletes shoes, the material and length of the lengths of stadium they run on, and so forth. You're not allowed to use certain techniques to enhance your strength – genetic surgery, steroids, and certain types of food and drugs are not allowed for use.

The competitions are not really “the fastest runner/best javelin thrower competitions”. They are competitions in how fast someone can run under controlled conditions.

So, under the rules, there is no gender, there is only sex. Male or female. Yeah, there are people who are born with testes who identify as women. There are people who identify as women and who are physically male. But the competition isn't interested in that, it's interest in the physical aspects of your body only, as it applies to running in, and winning, the competition under those very narrow and defined conditions.

It is illegal, in most sporting competitions if not all, to enhance yourself with testosterone injectors. If I used testosterone patches for additional muscle growth, I would be disqualified immediately, and I am male.

But this woman is an interesting issue. Now, I accept her as a woman in terms of what I think she is. I accept even people who were born entirely male as women, under certain circumstances. However, the question is, what should the committee do?

On one hand, this is, for all intents and purposes, a woman with a steroid factory built-in right into her body. How can one expect female competitors who are 'normal' in their make-up compete with someone like that? We can't allow the use of steroids in the competitions, of course, not only because it be impossible politically but because the whole point of the competitions is to allow 'natural' athletes to complete.

On the other hand, this woman's shape and condition IS natural. She had been born that way. If the point of the Olympic competition is 'how fast can a woman run under these conditions and without artificial enhancements', then the current answer is 'eight hundred meters, 1 minute, fifty-five seconds'.

Maybe the answer is to give her her medal but ban such athletes hereafter? I do not know.

However, I do not think the lady has cheated in the same sense as someone who uses doping has cheated.
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brimic

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 07:52:26 AM »
Quote
One would think that a person with an intersexed condition would be disadvantaged at certain areas of life (personal relationships, modeling potential), but excel at others (kicking ass in the races). But they aren't even letting her excel in women's sports.

That is especially the case with male XYY anomolies- they tend to have much higher levels of aggresion than normal males and have a highly diproportionate of prison incarcentation.
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Jocassee

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 09:04:14 AM »
I've been following this thing on the South African news forum for some time and I STILL don't understand what is going on. All I can get out of it is that the ANC cadres are making their usual claims of whitecolonialimperialistracism.
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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2009, 09:57:10 AM »
So, is male the default?  If she isn't exactly female, therefore she is male?  She has to affirmatively be a woman to compete as a woman, so does she have to affirmatively prove her maleness to compete as a man?

Pretty much, except for having to prove she is a man.  GigaBuist explained why.

Something similar exists in boxing & amateur wrestling: weight class.  It exists so that there can be competitive matches rather than just having all comers pummeled by the heavy weights.

Frankly, I hope the athletic associations examine this thoroughly and come down hard. 

The problem with the athletic competitions – or their advantage, to the spectator – is that all the rules therein are entirely arbitrary.

They exist to keep it competitive, like the weight class example above. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 11:12:23 AM »
Quote
They exist to keep it competitive, like the weight class example above. 

Yes. And?
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 11:33:15 AM »
So, what about the aformentioned XYY men?  Do they get to compete with men despite a chromosomal excess of maleness?  And what about women with very high testosterone but without (internal, probably minimally functional) testes? 

If someone has a chromosomal "advantage" over others of their sex, do they no longer belong to that sex?

Sure, there're all kinds of interesting variations in people's gender identity.  In this case though, she identifies as female because she (presumably) has a vagina.  That's usually considered a pretty clear indicator.  I don't think that she is remotely similar to a post-op transgendered or transexual individual at all, and that isn't what I was talking about.

GigaBuist

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 01:21:34 PM »
So, what about the aformentioned XYY men?  Do they get to compete with men despite a chromosomal excess of maleness?
I don't see why not.  I did a little reading on that condition and it doesn't appear that the extra Y really does a whole lot.  At least nothing that would make them some kind of super athlete.

And what about women with very high testosterone but without (internal, probably minimally functional) testes?
That's what I like about just using karotypes to decide it. 

No Y chromosome?  Woman. 
Y chromosome?  Dude.

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 01:34:43 PM »
Yes. And?

Well, if one does not impose weight class restrictions & the like, there will be about 1/10 participants in any competitive sport where muscle mass is highly correlated to success.  All the exceptional men (or women) who are not heavyweights can just go home, as they will not be competitive.

Perhaps you also have problems with age categories?  Got no problem stacking the Little League teams with 24YO minor leaguers?

See, the one has to remember that sport associations were not generated with an eye towards MicroBalrog's sensitivities.  They have other goals in mind, depending on the association: participation of youths in sport, character development, promotion of the sport itself, etc.

Given that most of these are organic, voluntary associations, it ought to be their business, not some tile-crawler's in search of a payoff and a reputation.



So, what about the aformentioned XYY men?  Do they get to compete with men despite a chromosomal excess of maleness?  And what about women with very high testosterone but without (internal, probably minimally functional) testes? 

If someone has a chromosomal "advantage" over others of their sex, do they no longer belong to that sex?

Sure, there're all kinds of interesting variations in people's gender identity.  In this case though, she identifies as female because she (presumably) has a vagina.  That's usually considered a pretty clear indicator.  I don't think that she is remotely similar to a post-op transgendered or transexual individual at all, and that isn't what I was talking about.

I would not have any problem with voluntary sport associations coming up with whatever criteria they deem best.  They are not social workers or LGBTQQUITAPOblahblahblah booster organizations.  It is not their mission to right all the wrongs in the world.

If voluntary sporting organizations deem that only the usual XX females and XY males may compete in their respective divisions, that is fine by me.  Those who have a problem can start their own sporting organizations.



This particular case of trying to find some sort of perfect solution for the fringe does point to a more general case. 

That general case being that in trying to accommodate the fringe cases, one must keep an eye to ensure the vast majority of folks aren't shafted.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 02:24:45 PM »
Quote
Well, if one does not impose weight class restrictions & the like, there will be about 1/10 participants in any competitive sport where muscle mass is highly correlated to success.  All the exceptional men (or women) who are not heavyweights can just go home, as they will not be competitive.

Perhaps you also have problems with age categories?  Got no problem stacking the Little League teams with 24YO minor leaguers?


Your argument would make sense if I was saying being arbitrary is a negative. Rather, I wish to point out all of these rules are made-up and voluntary, invented to allow people to compete in a carefully-delineated, almost ritualistic, activity. They are not sacred, of course, and they can be altered. As I explained, there are pros and cons to any answer to this question. Rather than come out militantly against what I feel is a private decision by a private organization, I pointed out that both arguments are legitimate.

Personally, I find Olympic sports boring.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 05:13:23 PM »
I don't see why not.  I did a little reading on that condition and it doesn't appear that the extra Y really does a whole lot.  At least nothing that would make them some kind of super athlete.

Well, nothing good, anyway.

Quote
That's what I like about just using karotypes to decide it. 

No Y chromosome?  Woman. 
Y chromosome?  Dude.

See, there's a name no one would self-apply where I come from.  =D

Yeah, ok, point conceded. 

My main objection is that a person's sex--even for sporting purposes--should be readily ascertainable to that person.  I can agree though, that what should be ain't always what is, and that she was on notice that something was up.  One would think that by the age of eighteen, even a non-elite athlete would notice that something was up with her sexuality and get it checked out. 



Iain

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 05:40:15 PM »
One would think that by the age of eighteen, even a non-elite athlete would notice that something was up with her sexuality and get it checked out. 

You'd have thought so. Then again on the menstruation issue - an old girlfriend didn't get periods until she was nearly 17, in part because of how physically active she was. When we were together she spent a summer working on a kids summer camp in Canada, very active all day, and they stopped for the duration.
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red headed stranger

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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 07:22:43 PM »
You'd have thought so. Then again on the menstruation issue - an old girlfriend didn't get periods until she was nearly 17, in part because of how physically active she was. When we were together she spent a summer working on a kids summer camp in Canada, very active all day, and they stopped for the duration.

Yep, it is pretty common for women who have very low body fat percentages (like most Olympians) to not menstruate.   
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Re: Gender, athletics and South African racial politics
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 07:38:28 PM »
At the Olympic level, all the "sports" that involve teenagers are basically child abuse. Aside from the 12 hour days training and it's social and psychological effects, that level of physical training leads to all sorts of bizarre effects on their growth and development.
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