Author Topic: A good Democrat?  (Read 41773 times)

Balog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #125 on: September 23, 2009, 01:49:39 PM »
Universities are free yes, but fortunatly most of the dole money has to be repaid.
Quite a lot of people do get worthless degress though. I guess they end up at the local McDonald's or somesuch. Who would've imagined that their 6 years of gender studies, women's studies, feminist philosophy, comparative folk dancing and other Mickey Mouse-subjects would be so undesirable? Woe be upon them, guess they should've gone with engineering, or nursing, or accounting or whatnot :rolleyes:.

I'm gonna move to Sweden to get a free accounting degree. I'll tell 'em I'm an illegal Muslim immigrant so they don't discriminate against me. :D
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Viking

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #126 on: September 23, 2009, 01:56:02 PM »
I'm gonna move to Sweden to get a free accounting degree. I'll tell 'em I'm an illegal Muslim immigrant so they don't discriminate against me. :D
Why bother? Just come. It's still free for EVERYONE, unless they changed it very recently (there was talk about it, they were to start charging money from students from non-EU countries). So unless they've changed it, it's still a free-for-all :P. Just remember that bringing your guns will present some difficulties (and boy are you going to wish you were carrying in some places...)
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Balog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #127 on: September 23, 2009, 02:07:34 PM »
Why bother? Just come. It's still free for EVERYONE, unless they changed it very recently (there was talk about it, they were to start charging money from students from non-EU countries). So unless they've changed it, it's still a free-for-all :P. Just remember that bringing your guns will present some difficulties (and boy are you going to wish you were carrying in some places...)

Can I apply for welfare too? This could work out. :)
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Viking

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #128 on: September 23, 2009, 02:10:47 PM »
Can I apply for welfare too? This could work out. :)
They've started to tighten up on that, so my initial guess is "no" :P. Besides, you aren't allowed to be on welfare or collect unemployment benefits if you are studying, got to take loans instead. Interest is very affordable AFAIK. Then, you would probably have to be either citizen or have permanent residency.
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Balog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #129 on: September 23, 2009, 02:15:41 PM »
They've started to tighten up on that, so my initial guess is "no" :P. Besides, you aren't allowed to be on welfare or collect unemployment benefits if you are studying, got to take loans instead. Interest is very affordable AFAIK. Then, you would probably have to be either citizen or have permanent residency.

1. Goto Sweden
2. Get students loans and finish degree
3. Leave country, default on loans
4. ???
5. Profit!


Seriously, I wonder if how much luck they'd have sending the international collections agency after me. I may need to look into this.  :lol:
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Viking

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #130 on: September 23, 2009, 02:25:20 PM »
1. Goto Sweden
2. Get students loans and finish degree
3. Leave country, default on loans
4. ???
5. Profit!


Seriously, I wonder if how much luck they'd have sending the international collections agency after me. I may need to look into this.  :lol:
I do believe there are international agreements in place for stuff like this these days. Hell, they went after a chick who had gotten a degree, worked for a few years, then became a nun and then defaulted on her loans. IIRC she had moved to the US, they still got to her. Besides, I thought you were a man of honor Balog :P.
“The modern world will not be punished. It is the punishment.” — Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Strings

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #131 on: September 23, 2009, 02:36:47 PM »
>If we want to get into subjective happiness<

You REALLY don't want to go there.

First off, the Constitution says "Pursuit of Happiness". Never said anything about actually getting it. The theory says we're free to pursue happiness in whatever way we wish (so long as we aren't harming others). But if we choose a path that isn't going to lead to happiness, that's a personal problem...

Second: "subjective happiness" is insanely difficult to judge.

Dad lived in Thailand for a few years, and is going back in a couple weeks. The people there (on the whole) are far happier than most Americans. However, their standard of living is below what most here in the States would consider poverty. Another point on this: dad's return was due to his health: the doctors in Thailand told him he'd be dead in 2 weeks if he stayed there. He came back 2 years ago...
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Balog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #132 on: September 23, 2009, 02:37:42 PM »
I consider screwing over socialist countries an honorable thing. :P

Ok, so add in "Steal identity of famous US socialist advocate." Heck, La Raza has a lot of culturally enriched fellows...
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Viking

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #133 on: September 23, 2009, 02:39:29 PM »
I consider screwing over socialist countries an honorable thing. :P

Ok, so add in "Steal identity of famous US socialist advocate." Heck, La Raza has a lot of culturally enriched fellows...
Now that I can agree to :angel:.
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Boomhauer

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #134 on: September 23, 2009, 03:07:05 PM »
I'm not sure actually. Aren't there states that offer you massive handouts if you pop out a bunch of sprogs? Aren't there places in the US where some families are currently on the third generation of welfare? While we do have an extensive welfare system here, the massive handouts I've read about (Preacherman wrote about this on his blog just the other day, $500 per month and child in handouts :O) don't exist here. OTOH, we do have "free" medical care and whatnot...guess it evens out...

Yes, welfare is a much abused and profited from system. Plenty of policritters get reelected by promising their constituents to use the government to rob others for the benefit of the constituents.

When you've got a 30 y.o. grandmother... (She had a kid at 15 and then her kid had another at 15), and mothers who have several children yet aren't even 21 yet...

I've often seen people in grocery stores pull out food stamp cards and purchase a whole cartload of food and pay nothing out of their pocket. That would be one thing if these people actually needed it, but the people that I've seen do this are clearly of the working age, wearing brand new clothes, and climb into a brand new car. And their cart is full of brand name goods and other expensive groceries.

I've seen people, upon finding out that their welfare card doesn't cover dog food, go back and get steaks for their dog instead.

Insanity!

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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Viking

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #135 on: September 23, 2009, 03:16:30 PM »
Yes, welfare is a much abused and profited from system. Plenty of policritters get reelected by promising their constituents to use the government to rob others for the benefit of the constituents.

When you've got a 30 y.o. grandmother... (She had a kid at 15 and then her kid had another at 15), and mothers who have several children yet aren't even 21 yet...

I've often seen people in grocery stores pull out food stamp cards and purchase a whole cartload of food and pay nothing out of their pocket. That would be one thing if these people actually needed it, but the people that I've seen do this are clearly of the working age, wearing brand new clothes, and climb into a brand new car. And their cart is full of brand name goods and other expensive groceries.

I've seen people, upon finding out that their welfare card doesn't cover dog food, go back and get steaks for their dog instead.

Insanity!


Doesn't even begin to cover it.

IIRC, welfare checks over here is along the lines of maybe a ~$1000-1100, plus what you get for each kid (roughly ~$100-120 monthly), plus all the "free" stuff like medical care and such. But still, they don't get, to use the example from Preacherman's blog, $500 per kid and month straight into their greedy little hands (which I guess is in addition to whatever they get from welfare). Holy *expletive deleted*it, the western world needs a bit of political overhauling...read this thread in General? There's a scary link there...

I bet the dogs were happy though.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #136 on: September 23, 2009, 04:03:06 PM »
>If we want to get into subjective happiness<

You REALLY don't want to go there.

First off, the Constitution says "Pursuit of Happiness". Never said anything about actually getting it. The theory says we're free to pursue happiness in whatever way we wish (so long as we aren't harming others). But if we choose a path that isn't going to lead to happiness, that's a personal problem...

Second: "subjective happiness" is insanely difficult to judge.

Dad lived in Thailand for a few years, and is going back in a couple weeks. The people there (on the whole) are far happier than most Americans. However, their standard of living is below what most here in the States would consider poverty. Another point on this: dad's return was due to his health: the doctors in Thailand told him he'd be dead in 2 weeks if he stayed there. He came back 2 years ago...

True progressives believe its time to move past that old, withered document.  Just read Mellestad's comments in this thread to understand that....
JD

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roo_ster

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #137 on: September 23, 2009, 04:12:19 PM »
I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.

IOW, you are prepared to use force to take what someone else rightly earned.  Worse, you aren't even willing to do the dirty work yourself, but desire a third party (gov't) to do your dirty work.  This places the armed robber at a higher moral plane than your own self.

I received "free" health care in the Military.  I hope and pray to every available deity that I never have to suffer "free" health care again.

That is two of us.  One reason I left .mil behind was that I was not willing to subject my future wife & children to such "free" health care.  Thing is, .mil healthcare is the absolute best outcome possible for socialized medicine, what with the population consisting mostly of young adults and all thse in the population of better than average health and physical shape.

AWWW now you got me agreeing with mb  =D :O

<jfruser quickly reads Revelations>

OK, not one of the signs of the Apocalypse.

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Apparently people like erictank are willing to threaten physical violence if democracy does not go their way.  I am not willing to make the same statement.

Oh, but you do.  It is implied when you say you are willing to tax others.  What if I say, "No?"  If I do so enough times, eventually your proxy will stick a gun in my face and blow my teeth out the back of my skull.

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Capitalist economists believe that in a condition of economic liberty, structures will emerge that, in the long run, will facilitate the movement towards an even greater prosperity for us all.

Yes, by they want what they want now!  Just like my two toddlers, thay have a very limited understanding of the term, "delayed gratification."

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Just like a Ford sedan my dad bought when I was a kid.  For the longest time, I referred to it as "the black car," while my dad insisted it was dark green.  Well, one day, the sun was just right and I looked at it real close...and I'll be danged if it wasn't dark green.

Also, I have ridden in some of those choppers. 

Quote from: Viking
Personally I'm going to go out and buy a pack of aspirin from my nearest grocery store once that market has been de-regulated just to celebrate.

For some reason, I find that very sad.  Kind of like someone in the USSR after the fall of the communist regime saying, "Once they're out of power, I'm going to travel to the next town over and not even bring my papers."



mellestad's writings indicate a belief in the rule of man rather than the rule of law. 

That means there are no effective limits on what those in power can do to the citizenry subjects.  (Citizens have the protection of law, subjects are--ahem--subject to the will of those in power.)

Regards,

roo_ster

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Viking

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2009, 04:16:53 PM »
True progressives believe its time to move past that old, withered document.  Just read Mellestad's comments in this thread to understand that....
If the US decides to get rid of it, I'd be happy to adopt it for us instead. :P

Quote from: jfruser
For some reason, I find that very sad.  Kind of like someone in the USSR after the fall of the communist regime saying, "Once they're out of power, I'm going to travel to the next town over and not even bring my papers."
Sort of. Hell, I personally do as much, eh, let's call it "civil disobedience" as I feel that I can get away with. I'm quietly wondering just HOW much that is though. I wouldn't be surprised if I could carry around a sword on my belt and go unmolested by everyone except the authorities...
“The modern world will not be punished. It is the punishment.” — Nicolás Gómez Dávila

Balog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #139 on: September 23, 2009, 04:25:34 PM »
Quote from: jfruser
That is two of us.  One reason I left .mil behind was that I was not willing to subject my future wife & children to such "free" health care.  Thing is, .mil healthcare is the absolute best outcome possible for socialized medicine, what with the population consisting mostly of young adults and all thse in the population of better than average health and physical shape.

Yep. The only thing I liked about the .mil system is how readily they hand out pain killers. My wife lost a filling and got a ton of Vicodin. A friend was in bad pain, they gave him IV morphine and dilaudid. Or however you spell that.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

RevDisk

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #140 on: September 23, 2009, 04:38:38 PM »
Yep. The only thing I liked about the .mil system is how readily they hand out pain killers. My wife lost a filling and got a ton of Vicodin. A friend was in bad pain, they gave him IV morphine and dilaudid. Or however you spell that.

To folks not familiar with TRICARE, they hand out painkillers moreso than civvie doctors do, but they don't pass out the hardcore stuff like candy.  Ranger candy they do hand out like candy.   =D

Very simple reason why TRICARE has better pain management.  DEA has no authority over TRICARE.  Drug abuse within TRICARE is investigated by the FBI or the respective service investigative agencies (CID, NCIS, etc).  Neither the FBI or the respective service agencies want people legitimately in pain to suffer.  The DEA has other priorities than the patients.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #141 on: September 23, 2009, 04:48:50 PM »
AT least it's not as bad as the horror that is the IDF's medical facilities.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #142 on: September 23, 2009, 04:52:10 PM »


That is two of us.  One reason I left .mil behind was that I was not willing to subject my future wife & children to such "free" health care.  Thing is, .mil healthcare is the absolute best outcome possible for socialized medicine, what with the population consisting mostly of young adults and all thse in the population of better than average health and physical shape.


They misdiagnosed my wife's endimitriosis and refused to refer her to a specialist.
Wife:  "My midsection hurts, and I'm nauseus."
Doc:  "Here, take this pregnancy test."
Wife:  "Husband is on deployment.  I'm not pregnant."
Doc:  "Sure whatever.  Take this pregancy test."
Wife piddles in cup.  Test, negative.
Wife:  "See, told you."
Doc:  "Must be PMS."

Three years later she was diagnosed with Endimitriosis by a civilian doctor.  By then, her innards were all jacked up.  We're lucky we managed to produce the two offspring we did.  

I won't go into my undiagnosed broken rib, my jacked up oral surgery, and how many times I was turned black and blue just to get a blood draw. 
JD

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roo_ster

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #143 on: September 23, 2009, 05:02:24 PM »
To folks not familiar with TRICARE, they hand out painkillers moreso than civvie doctors do, but they don't pass out the hardcore stuff like candy.  Ranger candy they do hand out like candy.   =D

First time I got the Rx strength horse-pill of ibuprofen was for a strained knee got whilst jumping out of a C130.  Oh, yes, the Ranger candy flow was broad, deep, and swift.

Very simple reason why TRICARE has better pain management.  DEA has no authority over TRICARE.  Drug abuse within TRICARE is investigated by the FBI or the respective service investigative agencies (CID, NCIS, etc).  Neither the FBI or the respective service agencies want people legitimately in pain to suffer.  The DEA has other priorities than the patients.

Yep, for all that is bad about the FBI, they have yet to approach the unbridled malevolence of the DEA.

Quote from: JamisJockey
I won't go into my undiagnosed broken rib, my jacked up oral surgery, and how many times I was turned black and blue just to get a blood draw.

I have not only my own horror stories, I spent a lot of time in Martin Army Community Hospital <spits bad taste out of mouth> because I was on thrice-daily IV antibiotics for 6+ weeks to help with the osteomyelitis introduced by the unaccountable & unaccredited butchers who hacked on ly busted ankle & leg.  Damn near saw one of the butchers get his due (by way of severe beating) when they jacked around the kid of a major in my unit who was in for surgery.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #144 on: September 23, 2009, 05:31:53 PM »
I've been wondering why none of the punditry are reminding the public of the scandal at Walter Reed a few years ago.  At least I haven't heard anybody say anything about it. 
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Gewehr98

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #145 on: September 23, 2009, 06:37:49 PM »
My flight surgeon and I jokingly referred to Motrin as "Vitamin M".  I still think they manufactured it in the clinic, owing to the volume dispensed.   =D
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mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #146 on: September 24, 2009, 01:29:07 PM »
On the contrary, this draws upon the history of American jurisprudence. Now, I know that the ords 'activist judges' are abused as all get-out by anybody who sees a decision they won't like, but it's true that judges like Oliver Wendell Holmes, Louis Brandeis, and some of their descendants and successors, subscribed to a view wherein the intent of the founders counted for little, and that the constitution can be freely reinterpreted in light of social progress.

Now, you may like the concept of a living constitution – but you cannot at once say you adhere to the constitution meaning and reinterpret it freely. Maybe it would be better for the nation – I can certainly not say, for I am not a US citizen -  if the American judiciary stuck b judicial activism as a doctrine. But you cannot lay a claim to both adhering a constitution and to reinterpreting it freely, at once. That is a logical contradiction.

A very good book on this subject – although of course biased, since it is written by a Cato-affiliated expert!  - is “How the Progressives Re-Wrote the Constitution”, by Richard Epstein of the University of Chicago.

At least I think we understand each other though.  We both know that there can be a wide range of political opinions about any particular issue, from basic constitutional law to tax reform.  That, honestly, was my only point in this debate.  I think this board can use some alternate input from the other 50% of the country, even if that means I get to spend a couple hours a week being spit on  :lol:

I never expect to change anyones mind on APS, but I do tend to push the idea that just because someone disagrees with the conservative talking point of the day does not make them an unthinking idiot who doesn't understand what government is for.  I certainly try not to reject conservative or libertarian ideals out of hand without actual analysis.

On a philosophical level there are three ways to formulate a political opinion:
1) From authority.  This means you get your opinions from people around you in 'real life' or on this board, talking heads on TV and radio, or even documents like the Bible or the Constitution.
2) Personal thought.  This means you tend to take your life experience and formulate your own responses without direct outside input.
3) Analysis.  This means you try to be objective, and attempt to compare political ideas based on something emperical.

Naturally, people use all three of those, but usually favor one or the other.  I *try* to use analysis because I think it is more consistent and likely to dredge up helpful solutions.  Of course, being human I often fail and react emotionally because politics is about personal perception.  But that is the reason I don't think it is a good idea to blindly follow the constitution...I don't take its authority for granted.  Do I respect it?  Absolutely!  It has been rather effective.  However, if something in it does not work well, I am not emotionally invested in it.  Honestly, I would like to see regular constitutional conventions.

I grew up in a conservative family and went to a very conservative private school.  The constitution was right up there with the Bible as something that was simply correct.  I was taught it was an authority when it came to politics, basically infallible, along with the founding fathers.  So I really do understand the idea that it should be held inviolate, although I do not follow it.  To me, it seems silly to argue my points by saying I 'hate' the constitution, or think it is a 'moldy document'.  What does that have to do with anything?  To have any weight as an argument you have to assume that a document made by human beings is infallible.  To me, that seems silly and smells like unhealthy, dogmatic 'patriotism'.

This discussion is about done isn't it?  I've made my points, people can apply option 1, 2 or 3 and do whatever they want with it.  If I don't post anything else in this topic, I hope no-one gets hurt feelings :)

Last time I stepped into a topic like this it ran for weeks and became one of the most lengthy threads in APS history, and I don't think it deserves that kind of drawn out discussion.

MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #147 on: September 24, 2009, 01:31:36 PM »
Quote
To have any weight as an argument you have to assume that a document made by human beings is infallible

The law has serious weight in discussions, not because it is infallible, but because it is current law.
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mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #148 on: September 24, 2009, 01:34:42 PM »
The law has serious weight in discussions, not because it is infallible, but because it is current law.

I agree.

Strings

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #149 on: September 24, 2009, 02:47:47 PM »
You have a point, Micro. However, using that logic, we shouldn't be arguing against gun laws (or drug laws, or whatever laws) because they are current law and therefore have weight... ;)
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