Man Pilloried by Vets for Burning Flag

[Perd Hapley]

No, it's not.  It's simply an opinion that differs from yours.  But of course, it's easier to try and discredit the person whose opinion it is, than to formulate an argument against the opinion.  That's two people now!  

On that note, I've made my point(s), and will bow out of this conversation before it degenerates even further.  PM me if you wish.

What?   I'm sorry, but you're just looking for ad hominem where it doesn't exist.  I said that your comments were disconnected from reality.  How is that "degenerate"?  Again, I'm not sure how to address an "opinion" that simply has no connection to the facts. 

[jackdanson]

I don't care what anyone says, they behaved immaturely and stupidly.  Challenge to a fist fight Yeah, real mature.  They can get sued, and they WILL lose or settle if they are.  You can't take the law into your own hands after a crime has been committed; it just doesn't fly in court.  I definetly agree with the sentiment, but you have to follow the rules of society, that's what makes the western world better than all the rest of the world.

Of course the guy is a jerk and should be tossed in a cell for 3 months and forced to pay 20x the value of the flag back.  Followed up by AA for the next couple years.. I guarantee you he was intoxicated or has a drug/alcohol problem, I also guarantee you that there were previous problems between this character and the hall..

[makattak]

I don't care what anyone says, they behaved immaturely and stupidly.  Challenge to a fist fight Yeah, real mature.  They can get sued, and they WILL lose or settle if they are.  You can't take the law into your own hands after a crime has been committed; it just doesn't fly in court.  I definetly agree with the sentiment, but you have to follow the rules of society, that's what makes the western world better than all the rest of the world.

Of course the guy is a jerk and should be tossed in a cell for 3 months and forced to pay 20x the value of the flag back.  Followed up by AA for the next couple years.. I guarantee you he was intoxicated or has a drug/alcohol problem, I also guarantee you that there were previous problems between this character and the hall..

And I have to disagree.

We rely far too much on the courts and lawyers in this society. Social disapprobation is a far better tool.

We need MORE public shamings.

[MicroBalrog]

Social disapprobation a useful tool? Have you ever been to, say, high school?

[Ben]

I agree.  Swords, or pistols at 10 paces, would have been more becoming of gentlemen.

Call me a Neanderthal, but there's a lot to be said for asking someone to step outside in order to defend one's honor, or the honor of a lady. Obviously there is a fine and varying line between one kind of "vigilantism" and another, but calling the cops or a lawyer (no offense to the lawyers on board) for every little thing is what has led us to being the rude and litigious society that we are.

See the title of our forum. Knowing you might get popped in the nose should be all that's needed to keep you from doing crass and stupid things. Knowing you can "tattle" and sue for just about anything will make you more prone to being a jackass.

[grampster]

Gentlemen of VFW, I salute you.

[MicroBalrog]

I would note here I am in great favor of legalizing formal dueling.

[Balog]

Social disapprobation a useful tool? Have you ever been to, say, high school?

Do you often start arguments by proving your opponents point? Also note, children being vicious to each other has no relation to the use of shame as a punishment. Anymore than bullies beating up other kids relates to the use of flogging as a form of punishment.

[MicroBalrog]

My point is this: Social misapprobation, by definition, is not assigned based on any kind of legal or even rational system. While the State may attempt to direct with (by publicly shaming criminals), it is not fully controllable. In the times where punishments were public, there were often occasions when crowds would become enraged and assault  the executioners to free the criminal, even when those same people had previously demanded his punishment.

Add to this the tendency of people - not just in high-school, but in any kind of group environment - the military (at least where I served), even some workplaces and small town, to single people out for exclusion and hatred for being different, and using that as any kind of tool for justice become... very iffy at best. People express 'social disapprobation' of pagans, strippers, and hippie protestors. What kind of method is that to make society better?

The legal system with its pre-agreed-upon punishment is far more predictable. If you can prove someone hurt another person or their property, fine them or put them in prison or execute them. If they haven't, leave them the hell alone.

[Balog]

My point is this: Social misapprobation, by definition, is not assigned based on any kind of legal or even rational system. While the State may attempt to direct with (by publicly shaming criminals), it is not fully controllable. In the times where punishments were public, there were often occasions when crowds would become enraged and assault  the executioners to free the criminal, even when those same people had previously demanded his punishment.

Add to this the tendency of people - not just in high-school, but in any kind of group environment, to single people out for exclusion and hatred for being different, and using that as any kind of tool for justice become... very iffy at best.

The legal system with its pre-agreed-upon punishment is far more predictable. If you can prove someone hurt another person or their property, fine them or put them in prison or execute them. If they haven't, leave them the hell alone.

What the hell are you talking about? How is punishing a criminal for their action "singling someone out for exclusion and hatred because they are different?" Also, public shaming/flogging etc can be every bit as much a part of the pre-agreed-u[pon punishment of the legal system as anything else. Why are fines, prison, and execution the only legitimate methods of punishment, especially since they are (as you ourself have pointed out) not terribly effective?

[MicroBalrog]

I don't have a problem with public flogging as much as with the idea of replacing legal punishment with society shaming someone.

Furthermore, I contend that the modern prison system works. Western societies - including America - are actually remarkably SAFE as compared to both the rest of the world, and the previous 199,000 years of recorded human history.

[Perd Hapley]

I don't care what anyone says, they behaved immaturely and stupidly.  Challenge to a fist fight Yeah, real mature.

First you impersonate the President, and then you say that boxing is immature?  I'm not sure I understand. 

You can't take the law into your own hands after a crime has been committed; it just doesn't fly in court.

Then the flag-burner has no case?  After all, the decision was his.  How does he sue them for something in which he participated?  If what they did was wrong, how does he escape blame?  He was as instrumental in the situation as were they. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Social disapprobation a useful tool? Have you ever been to, say, high school?

thats ironic in ways you will never realize

[MicroBalrog]

thats ironic in ways you will never realize

Happily I went to a high school that was not like that.  

Mind, the first three months of it was in a public high school, but generally, no, my high school years were paradise compared to what many people experience.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

if the kid is smart he'll shut up and try to live it down or move.

i remember a "peace demonstration" in new york that got a visit from the hard hats on a construction site nearby. let the beatings begin

[MicroBalrog]

i remember a "peace demonstration" in new york that got a visit from the hard hats on a construction site nearby

I shudder to ask what happened.

[Balog]

I don't have a problem with public flogging as much as with the idea of replacing legal punishment with society shaming someone.

Furthermore, I contend that the modern prison system works. Western societies - including America - are actually remarkably SAFE as compared to both the rest of the world, and the previous 199,000 years of recorded human history.

So you are saying that there is no deterrent aspect to something being regarded by society as a whole as shameful? Really?

What historic records are you thinking of as being almost 200k years old?

[Hawkmoon]

Nothing in my post says anything about disrepecting the hooligan's choice.  My problem is that those choices were given to him.  They should have turned him over to the police.

That was one of the choices.


He chose otherwise. Case closed.

[MicroBalrog]

So you are saying that there is no deterrent aspect to something being regarded by society as a whole as shameful? Really?

No, I'm saying it's a bad idea to rely on society's collective understanding of 'shamefulness' as our way to prevent actually criminal activities. I'd rather depend on, you know, courts and juries.

This is both for fear of society regarding things as shameful which I see nothing wrong with, and for fear of certain subcultures that actually glorify anti-social behavior.

What historic records are you thinking of as being almost 200k years old?

Obviously, there are no detailed crecords per se of the primitive society, so I was incorrect in referring to it as recorded.

But I think I'm generally correct in saying that modern Western civilization is doing comparatively well in deterring actual violence and other crimes against the citizen.

[Devonai]

You can't take the law into your own hands after a crime has been committed; it just doesn't fly in court.

The law is in our hands, we have simply authorized police officers to act as agents of the state on our behalf.  In the absence of law enforcement, we are still able to be proactive in many circumstances.

As for the OP, I believe I would have rather roughly held the young man until authorities arrived, i.e. put him to the ground and sat on him.

[roo_ster]

And I have to disagree.

We rely far too much on the courts and lawyers in this society. Social disapprobation is a far better tool.

We need MORE public shamings.

This.  ^^^

More of this.  ^^^


Less of this:

My point is this: Social misapprobation, by definition, is not assigned based on any kind of legal or even rational system.

Au contraire.   Tradition and other social conduct is most times quite rational.  Folks didn't just pull folkways, mores, and such out of their fourth points of contact.  There was a process over a good amount of time that resulted in certain relationships between action/reaction and such.

We might have to break out our fainting couch nowadays, since we have been conditioned to lawyer-ize everything, but there are rational bases for most public shaming.

While the State may attempt to direct with (by publicly shaming criminals), it is not fully controllable. In the times where punishments were public, there were often occasions when crowds would become enraged and assault  the executioners to free the criminal, even when those same people had previously demanded his punishment.

Uh, we were talking about public shaming, not public execution.

Also, I don't want it controlled by the State.  I want the "public dander" to be a rival power that demands respect form the state.

Add to this the tendency of people - not just in high-school, but in any kind of group environment - the military (at least where I served), even some workplaces and small town, to single people out for exclusion and hatred for being different, and using that as any kind of tool for justice become... very iffy at best. People express 'social disapprobation' of pagans, strippers, and hippie protestors. What kind of method is that to make society better?

First off, if someone chooses to take on counter-cultural habits, beliefs, etc., they are getting what they asked for WRT exclusion, etc.  It is the "counter-" part, here.  They are setting themselves apart & acting different.  So, they are treated differently.

We have freedom of expression, so they can express what they please.  But, there is no freedom to get invited to all the cool parties after using that freedom to mock the popular cliques.


I think the atrophy of public shaming and other social tools is tied to the growth of government power into every sphere.  If people can't or won't police their own selves via self-discipline and keeping the community standards, police will be provided from on high.  And they won't live next door or have their own behavior checked by the community's standards.

[MicroBalrog]

First off, if someone chooses to take on counter-cultural habits, beliefs, etc., they are getting what they asked for WRT exclusion, etc.  It is the "counter-" part, here.  They are setting themselves apart & acting different.  So, they are treated differently.

You do realize this is a giant circular reasoning moment?

Tradition and other social conduct is most times quite rational. 

Consider the 'traditional' behavior of people outside the very narrow circle of the Christian-Western world. Their traditions do not condemn bribe-taking as much as they condemn, say, 'immodest' clothing.  There are entire countries where accepting services from someone and taking weeks and months to pay for them is seen as normal and meets with cultural acceptance, and countries where slicing the face and head of your infant child with a straight razor is perfectly normal and encouraged, and I note I'm talking about comparatively sane nations like Israel and Lebanon.

There's absolutely no rational reason for people to stone other people for driving on Saturday. Nothing. None whatsoever that you can provide.

A lot of human traditions are leftovers from a time period when something made sense given the social and scientific knowledge at the time, and which no longer makes sense now. The clothing of Orthodox Jews (and the particular way in which they perform circumcision), for example, made perfect sense when it was first introduced. Perfectly no sense now.

Social taboos are called taboos because they're quite often entirely irrational and magical in nature. Leftists view hunters as some form of primitive throwbacks who kill animals for pleasure. For these people, hunting is entirely unacceptable.

I much prefer lawyers. At least when a law is enacted, I get to fight against it, and maybe it gets shot down in the legislature, or thrown out in court. And then if I am charged, I get a day in court, with an attorney to defend me.

How can you fight a wide-spread public prejudice?

If people can't or won't police their own selves via self-discipline and keeping the community standards, police will be provided from on high

False dichotomy.

[Antibubba]

Great thread!

  The Rensselaer County Sheriffs office confirmed knowledge of the event, but said they were not involved. State Police in Brunswick were contacted, but a trooper said no record of the event could be found. 

Any bets on whether or the Sheriff's report gets lost?    

He was offered the opportunity to go to the police, and he declined.  Did he think he'd somehow walk away from his actions? 

[French G.]

Somebody walks up and punches the guy in the nose?  Fine with me. He accidentally sets himself on fire while burning the flag, like that putz in Pakistan, I laugh inside.

I don't want to see him turned over to the police. I don't want him to be bullied by a group into a fight or public humiliation/wrongful confinement. The VFW is an honorable group, but group bully tactics are tools of the enemy. I detest people that burn flags, but they need to exist. Burning a flag and living is proof that the flag still represents American values. I've raised and struck the the colors many times in the military. I've folded flags for family members, the same flag I put on a co-worker's coffin. I believe in the flag and the country behind it rather fervently. But I don't like nationalism that seeks to suppress its antithesis. I understand that the VFW guys are heavily invested in what the flag means to them, some probably a lot more than me, and can name more friends laid to rest under the flag. Even so, the piece of crap has a right to do his thing.

[Regolith]

Somebody walks up and punches the guy in the nose?  Fine with me. He accidentally sets himself on fire while burning the flag, like that putz in Pakistan, I laugh inside.

I don't want to see him turned over to the police. I don't want him to be bullied by a group into a fight or public humiliation/wrongful confinement. The VFW is an honorable group, but group bully tactics are tools of the enemy. I detest people that burn flags, but they need to exist. Burning a flag and living is proof that the flag still represents American values. I've raised and struck the the colors many times in the military. I've folded flags for family members, the same flag I put on a co-worker's coffin. I believe in the flag and the country behind it rather fervently. But I don't like nationalism that seeks to suppress its antithesis. I understand that the VFW guys are heavily invested in what the flag means to them, some probably a lot more than me, and can name more friends laid to rest under the flag. Even so, the piece of crap has a right to do his thing.

Normally I'd agree with you, but it wasn't his flag.  It was the VFW's flag.  He destroyed someone else's property.