Author Topic: P47 Thunderbolt  (Read 8934 times)

Warren

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P47 Thunderbolt
« on: December 23, 2005, 02:47:50 PM »
Wow what a plane!

I'm watching a Warbirds episode on a local channel and man I had no idea.

Especially the M model. Fast, tough and with great range and 8 .50s? Just damn!

Almost 1000 enemy planes destroyed to only 128 lost. And then it went on as a ground attack fighter-bomber as well where the accounted for more non-aircraft ground targets destroyed than any other type of plane. And it was not even designed as a ground blaster.

The enemy would blow huge holes in the thing but it would still keep going.  One guy's plane lost 2 cylinders and a lot of oil but he did notice anything until he got back to his field and saw the basketball sized hole in his engine cover.


So, again, wow!

Chuck Dye

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P47 Thunderbolt
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2005, 03:57:23 PM »
Once heard G. Gordon Liddy, on air, try to force his love of "the Jug" down the throat of a been-there-done-that WWII fighter pilot.  The pilots response was priceless:

(paraphrasing)

"Oh, the Thunderbolt was a great plane, no doubt, but we greatly preferred the P-38.  Flying off of islands in the Pacific we knew we were dead men until we landed again (bailing out and ditching rarely worked) and that second engine hugely improved our chances of doing that."

Like parachutes and guns, having one more than you think you need is good.

Art Eatman

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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2005, 07:30:17 PM »
The P-38 had everything going for it but cockpit heat.

The Jug was the first prop plane to break the speed of sound.

Sometimes the value oof a second engine is that it gets you to the scene of the crash much more quickly...

Smiley, Art
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Chuck Dye

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P47 Thunderbolt
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2005, 07:50:10 PM »
Sometimes the value...

The voice of experience, Art?

Guest

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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2005, 08:59:47 PM »
Funny.

I pilot a Thunderbolt myself Smiley.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/buell_s3.htm

Stickjockey

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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2005, 05:47:08 AM »
Eight .50's means never having to say you're sorry. :evilgrin:

Quote
One guy's plane lost 2 cylinders and a lot of oil but he did notice anything until he got back to his field and saw the basketball sized hole in his engine cover.
I've seen stories like this of the Grumman Hellcat, too. Another fantastic plane.
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2005, 11:34:24 AM »
I was reading an article just a few days ago about the P-38, and the lack of cockpit heat was about the only reall drawback mentioned by the WW II pilot.  The P-38 couldn't turn inside a Zero with just one engine, but it could outfly most of the other Jap planes.

I've knoewn a couple of "Jug" pilots, and my father-in-law bought one after WW II.  Sans guns, of course.  He finally gave up on it, because you could only get 140 Octane AvGas in 55-gallon drums, and it took a lot of hand-cranking to fuel up--for a playtoy that drank 70 gallons per hour.

My own flying time is only some 300 hours, 90% of it in a 172.  If I wanted excitement, I'd go back and strap on a race car. Smiley  If you decide you don't like it anymore, in a racecar all you have to do is lift your right foot and coast to a stop.  In a plane, you still have to make one more landing. Cheesy

Art
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K Frame

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P47 Thunderbolt
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2005, 07:23:58 PM »
The P-38 had a nasty habit of blowing superchargers, especially at higher altitudes. This problem was never fully solved.

It was best at under 15,000 feet or so.

It couldn't keep up with the best of the German fighters at bombing height, but was hell on wheels as a ground attack and photo reconnaissance aircraft.

It's interesting to note that America's two highest scoring aces of all time made all of their kills in the Pacific flying Lightnings.
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K Frame

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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2005, 07:34:11 PM »
Art,

There's a LOT of doubt about whether the P-47 actually broke the speed of sound or not. Apparently a lot of aviation engineers feel that the Jug simply wasn't able to breach the barrier.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Sergeant Bob

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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2005, 04:20:15 AM »
Here's a great sight on WW2 aces and planes.

http://www.acepilots.com/
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2005, 03:21:58 AM »
Breaking the speed of sound:  Not in level flight, certainly.  Allegedly, it was done in a dive from high altitude.  I guess the "record-setting" part of the deal was being able to back off the throttle and pull out without having the wings come unglued. Smiley  And, as usual, not running out of air under you.

Air above you and runway behind you are truly among the most useless items ever known.

Smiley, Art
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Stickjockey

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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2005, 05:27:09 AM »
That and fuel on the ground. B)
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K Frame

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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2005, 08:06:57 AM »
"Allegedly, it was done in a dive from high altitude."

Yep, and that's what I'm talking about, the tail vertical dives at full power. Speed indicators said 725 mph on one aircraft, which would have put the aircraft over speed of sound, but again, it's largely disbelieved now days.
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Brad Johnson

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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2005, 11:27:23 AM »
Have to agree with Mike on this one. The big 'Bolt may have been a tank with a prop, but it simply wasn't strong enough to withstand the kind of beating a plane that blunt would take as is passed through mach one. The shockwaves formed off the pug nose would have been beating the surfaces to pieces.

An experimental version of the P-47 was, however, the first piston powered aircraft to surpass 500 mph in level flight. The XP-47J was an experimental lightened version of the P47. It was fitted with a specially built Pratt & Whitney R-2800 that pounded out 2800 hp (vs. the production model's stated hp of 2200-2300). On August 4, 1944 it hit 504 mph. Top speed was 507 mph. Unfortunately there was only one example produced. Also, the airframe was not a modification of an existing P-47 frame. Rather it was an all new airframe designed around the concept plane's closely cowled engine, relocated supercharger intakes, and emphasis on lighter components. The lightened wing structure necessitate an armament reduction from eight guns to six.



On the upside, the C variant of the P&W R2800 was so impressive that it was installed in the P-47M, which had an "official" top speed of 470 mph. There is fairly good evidence that the resourceful crewchiefs of the 56th Fighter Group could tweak the hotrod M models until they could hit 500.

Even more impressive was what the big R-2800 Pratt was capable of doing. In one test to determine the limits of manifold pressure-induced detonation, Pratt engineers boosted one example until it was making 3600 hp! Still not impressed? They ran it in this configuration, at full power and on common 100/130 avgas, for 250 hours (ten and a half days straight) with no mechanical failures. Test documents still exist to prove it. Talk about overbuilt!

The P-47 was built in greater quantities than almost any other US fighter. After WWII many of the surplus P-47s were sold to other countries. Every ten or twelve years you hear a story about one of the big birds being discovered (usually as boxes of unlabeled parts) in a corner of an unused warehouse or hanger.

Brad
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2005, 01:04:00 PM »
I wonder if that R2800 was used in the F8F Hellcat?  That plane came out too late in 1945 (IIRC) to make much difference in the war with Japan.  It DID have an incredible rate of climb, and I think it surpassed all other US planes.

Shifting planes, the South Korea AF had P-51s when I was there in 1954/1955.  I was at K-13 airbase at Suwon-ni, in an ack-ack outfit.  The USAF had F-86s and F-94s there.

When the 1st MarDiv rotated out of Korea, their air wing went on a "Goodbye, guys!" rampage all over the place.  They roared in on us at treetop level.  Or lower.  I still say the eagle on our Hq flagpole ducked.  One airman broke himself up pretty bad, jumping out of the control tower.  It upset him to look down on an incoming F4U Corsair...

Art
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Brad Johnson

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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2005, 01:49:33 PM »
If you're talking about the Hellcat, that's the F6F. It was the main Navy fighter of WWII. Both it and the F8F were powered by the P&W R-2800, but the F6F had a slightly lower-powered variant (2000 hp).

The F8F was was the Bearcat. They used the 34W version of the venerable Pratt R-2800. Everything I have gives an official power rating of 2100 hp. The last versions went to the P&W R-2800-30W which had an automatic variable supercharger and produced 2250 hp.

The Bear was a tremendous achievement. Developed as a true high-performance hot rod - the smallest, most efficient, most maneuverable airframe around the most powerful engine available - it is widely speculated that, had the war not ended when it did, the F8F would have quickly become the hands-down choice for best fighter of the war. Considering that the Bear had the same engine as the P-47, but was only saddled with half the weight, it's no wonder it porformed as it did! Those that flew them considered it to be a better plane in every way than anything else in the military inventory - even the P-51 Mustang. Only the F4-U Corsair outlived the Bear in U.S. naval service, serving with Marines at the controls well into the Korean War.

At little quick internet checking verified your speculation about rate of climb. Several sources indicated that the Bearcat held the the time-to-10,000 climb record for the better part of three decades.

I've seen the F8F flying with the Confederate Air Force. It's a strange beast - all stubby and hump-backed. Stranger still is the geared prop system it uses. Compared to almost every other radial-engined aircraft of the ear, the prop is just barely turning as it is idling on the tarmac. And the prop is freakin' huge! A big four-bladed affair that looks far too big in comparison to the rest of the plane. If memory serves, the only single engine aircraft with bigger props in military service at the time were the Corsair and the Thunderbolt.

Some later bombers had far bigger props, but they were being spun with the mega-monster Pratt R4360. It was an enormous affair with four banks of cylinders that grunted out 3000 hp and a mind-bending 7,500 lb-ft torque (YIKES!!). Grumman actually considered this behemoth when in the brainstorming stages. They were looking for the most powerful engine available at the time and this was it. Unfortunately, the engine assembly complete with superchargers and oil weighed in at a whopping two tons. This, and the power handling problems associated with that much torque, would have resulted in a plane with a dry weight in excess of the big P-47's max combat weight! That, and the horrendous complexity of the R4360 would have doomed the fighter. Can't remember the exact figures, but each hour of flight time was accompanied by several pre- and post-flight hours of gound crew time. Not what you want in an interceptor-style quick response fighter. Needless to say, the idea was dropped rather quickly.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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K Frame

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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2005, 03:16:28 PM »
Bingo, Brad.

I've seen one speculation that the registered airspeed of 725 mph was actually caused by shockwave buffeting/compression as the plane approached Mach 1.

Given the location of the pitot tube so far out on the left wing tip it's very likely that the shockwave from the nose was blasting it to pieces.

Read up on the specs for the late-war Corsair variant for the F2G, which would have used the R-4360 engine. The testbeds were unbelievable.

At least one F2G-1 fitted with the R-4360 engine survived and made it into civilian hands after the war, and flew on the racing circuit.

The R-4360 engine also didn't end life there, either. Post war its most numerous application was in the B-36 Peacemaker bomber.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Warren

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P47 Thunderbolt
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2005, 10:23:59 PM »
Quote from: Brad Johnson
The Bear was a tremendous achievement. Developed as a true high-performance hot rod - the smallest, most efficient, most maneuverable airframe around the most powerful engine available - it is widely speculated that, had the war not ended when it did, the F8F would have quickly become the hands-down choice for best fighter of the war. Considering that the Bear had the same engine as the P-47, but was only saddled with half the weight, .....snip
Brad
But isn't that weight of the P47 what gave it a lot of survivability?

richyoung

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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2005, 04:17:30 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
The P-38 couldn't turn inside a Zero with just one engine, but it could outfly most of the other Jap planes.
I beg to differ - perhaps you've never heard of the "Lockheed Stomp" - it involved cutting the throttle to the inside engine of the turn.  McGuire was supposed ot be a big advocate of it, and claimed no Zero ever out-turned him - the drawback was, a couple of his birds were "class 26'd" with bent main spars after this trick.....
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Stickjockey

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« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2005, 05:07:35 AM »
Quote
But isn't that weight of the P47 what gave it a lot of survivability?
Yes, but that was the trade-off with the T-Bolt. Above 18,000 feet it lost a lot of it's agility due to the extra weight of armor, guns, and such. Later design improvements improved its performance, and of course nothing could dive with a Jug.
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2005, 07:09:08 AM »
richyoung, that "stomp" was a short-term affair.  I was thinking of one dead engine, only allowing power from the other.

Brad, thanx for the refresher.  Some stuff gets a bit hazy after 50 years...

Smiley, Art
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Brad Johnson

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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2005, 08:52:26 AM »
It's not the age, Art, it's the desert sun and heat getting to you. At least that the excuse I'd use... (*snicker* Tongue )

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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richyoung

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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2005, 10:21:48 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
richyoung, that "stomp" was a short-term affair.  I was thinking of one dead engine, only allowing power from the other.

Brad, thanx for the refresher.  Some stuff gets a bit hazy after 50 years...

Smiley, Art
OK - sorry I mis-understood you.  On the plus side, the -38 had a trick to deal with a Zero if the -38 had a dead engine - go to max power on the good engine and a shallow climb, and the Zero couldn't keep up - saved a lot of recon guys' bacon.
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2005, 03:43:47 AM »
Think for a moment on the rate of technological change in the 3-3/4 years of WW II:  We went from the F4F and the P40 to the P51, the P47 and the P38; and then the F8F.   Almost got into the jet-aircraft era of fighters.

Spin-off stuff:  Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines envisioned commuting by helicopter and air-car.  100 mph travel on the expected superhighways would be commonplace...

Misc.:  My step-father was a B-24 co-pilot on the "Texas Rattler", out of Henderson Field on Guadalcanal.  I still remember, "We used'em for everything from pursuit planes to dive bombers."  He said they came back from a raid on Rabaul with 87 bullet and flak holes.  But, no combat injuries among the crew during his tour.

Art
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Stickjockey

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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2005, 04:54:00 AM »
Quote
My step-father was a B-24 co-pilot on the "Texas Rattler", out of Henderson Field on Guadalcanal.  I still remember, "We used'em for everything from pursuit planes to dive bombers."
Art, not to cast doubt, but are you sure that wasn't a B-25 "Mitchell?" Those were modified from here to next Tuesday for different missions. Looks like a Lib, but only two engines. Hot ship.
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