Author Topic: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins  (Read 5718 times)

Waitone

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So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« on: October 19, 2009, 07:54:04 AM »
Yup!  Guns are a plague so study 'em like you would study a plague.  Or, you obviously don't think right if you favor use of guns so let's find out how you think so govt can fix it later.
Quote
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/19/nih-funds-study-of-teen-firearms/?source=newsletter_must-read-stories-today_headlines&
By Jim McElhatton

More than a decade after Congress cut funding for firearms research by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), another federal health agency has been spending millions of dollars to study such topics as whether teenagers who carry firearms run a different risk of getting shot compared with suffering other sorts of injuries.

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) also has been financing research to investigate whether having many liquor stores in a neighborhood puts people at greater risk of getting shot.

Such studies are coming under sharp scrutiny by Republican lawmakers who question whether the money could be better spent on biomedical research at a time of increasing competition for NIH funding. They're also leery of NIH research relating to firearms in general, recalling how 13 years ago the House voted to cut CDC funding when critics complained that the agency was trying to win public support for gun control.

"It's almost as if someone's been looking for a way to get this study done ever since the Centers for Disease Control was banned from doing it 10 years ago," Rep. Joe L. Barton, Texas Republican, said of one of the NIH studies. "But it doesn't make any more sense now than it did then."

The NIH, which administers more than $30 billion in taxpayer funds for medical research, defended the grants.

"Gun related violence is a public health problem - it diverts considerable health care resources away from other problems and, therefore, is of interest to NIH," Don Ralbovsky, NIH spokesman, wrote in an e-mail responding to questions about the grants.

"These particular grants do not address gun control; rather they deal with the surrounding web of circumstances involved in many violent crimes, especially how alcohol policy may reduce the public health burden from gun-related injury and death," he said.

Mr. Barton and Rep. Greg Walden of Oregon, the ranking Republican on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, first questioned the NIH about the gun-related grants in a letter Friday to NIH Director Dr. Francis Collins.

The letter sought information about grants for current projects and for others starting as far back as 2002, totaling nearly $5 million. The lawmakers called the study of criminal behavior "a laudable endeavor which consistently benefits the American people, often in ways that people do not see."

"And yet we have trouble understanding the administration's desire to spend, for example, $642,561 in taxpayer funds to learn how inner-city teenagers whose friends, acquaintances and peers carry firearms and drink alcohol on street corners could show up in emergency rooms with gunshot wounds.

"The day-follows-night quality of this question and its potential answer simply do not seem to justify the expense that would be borne by people who work and pay their taxes," the lawmakers wrote.

Special interests on both sides of the gun-control issue differ on the question of whether the NIH ought to be conducting firearms-related research.

"This kind of research does concern us, and we're going to be watching it closely," said Erich Pratt, a spokesman for the Gun Owners Association of America. "You'd think that after the CDC had their money revoked, we wouldn't be dealing with this."

But Peter Hamm, spokesman for the Washington-based Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said Republican lawmakers were "blaming the messenger" by criticizing the research.

"Burying the evidence is what the gun lobby is best at," he said. "Whether the members of Congress like it or not, gun violence is a public health problem in America today."

NIH records show that one study being questioned by lawmakers aimed to "investigate whether adolescents who consume alcohol and/or carry firearms, and/or whose daily activities occur in surroundings rich in alcohol and/or firearms, face a differential risk of being shot with a firearm or injured in a non-gun assault."

A separate study on child safety looked at the decision-making process by couples on whether to own firearms, in part trying to identify whether women are less supportive of firearms compared with their partners.

The questions about whether the NIH should fund such research are being raised more than a decade after the House voted against restoring $2.6 million to the CDC's budget, money that the agency was spending on gun studies. The move, backed by the National Rifle Association (NRA), was made after Republicans and some Democrats complained that the CDC was pushing for gun control.

The money was eventually restored to the CDC budget but with a spending restriction that has remained in place ever since, mandating that funds cannot be used "in whole or in part to advocate or promote gun control."

Mr. Barton and Mr. Walden, both of whom have received political contributions from the NRA over the years, requested more information on the NIH firearms research funding a month after they separately raised questions about several other NIH grants.

Their earlier letter to the NIH cited questions about grants that "do not seem to be of the highest scientific rigor," including one on whether participating on dragon-boat paddling teams helped cancer survivors more than taking part in an organized walking program. 
<strokes chin, carefully reads article>Nope, no word on interest in studying the beneficial impact of firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 09:24:59 AM »
Quote
Republican lawmakers were "blaming the messenger" by criticizing the research.

No, Mr. Hamm. If millions of dollars are being spent to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion on this, then the Brady Campaign should pay for it.

French G.

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 09:27:21 AM »
How long until 200% value excise taxes to cover health care and cigarette box warnings engraved into the slide are just everyday things? Maybe we can get the tobacco crybabies to do whiny PSAs about how guns aren't cool and make you stinky.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Standing Wolf

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 11:18:28 AM »
Quote
"Gun related violence is a public health problem - it diverts considerable health care resources away from other problems and, therefore, is of interest to NIH," Don Ralbovsky, NIH spokesman, wrote in an e-mail responding to questions about the grants.

Leftist extremism is a public health problem: it diverts an enormous quantity of tax dollars from real problems, and therefore needs to be shipped to North Korea, where it will be happier.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 11:28:38 AM »
This is not new.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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agricola

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 12:12:43 PM »
How long until 200% value excise taxes to cover health care and cigarette box warnings engraved into the slide are just everyday things? Maybe we can get the tobacco crybabies to do whiny PSAs about how guns aren't cool and make you stinky.

Surely "Warning!  May cause Death" would look cool on a firearm?
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MechAg94

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 12:32:49 PM »
Surely "Warning!  May cause Death" would look cool on a firearm?
Cool or not, it would definitely have the opposite effect of what they would want. 
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longeyes

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 12:55:36 PM »
Under socialism everyone, being part of The State, is immortal.  Public health & safety is just another word for control.  Live and be well.
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longeyes

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 12:56:35 PM »
If not a disease then surely a form of pornography...?
"Domari nolo."

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Gewehr98

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 02:31:28 PM »
Quote
Surely "Warning!  May cause Death" would look cool on a firearm?

Obviously, you've never seen or owned a Ruger firearm.   =D
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Standing Wolf

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 03:04:11 PM »
Quote
This is not new.

No, it's certainly not new; unfortunately, the White House, both houses of congress, and the national supposedly "news" media are united in hatred of America and our civil rights, and that is a recent development.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 03:06:19 PM »
No, it's certainly not new; unfortunately, the White House, both houses of congress, and the national supposedly "news" media are united in hatred of America and our civil rights, and that is a recent development.

They may be anti-freedom in general, but the house is not anti-gun in any meaningful sense.

They passed probably more pro-gun bills than any Congress in the last century, AFAIK.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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mellestad

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 07:06:56 PM »
Could someone explain what the problem is?  Guns are a causal factor in gun injuries, the NIH wants to decrease gun injuries, so they want to do research on how that can be done.

So what?  Argue with whatever they recommend if you don't like it, not the fact that they are following their mission goals of decreasing injury/death.  I am sure they do the same sorts of studies on car injury/death, swimming pool injury/death, ladder injury/death, power tool injury/death....?  Am I missing something I should be outraged about?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2009, 07:10:55 PM »
Quote
Am I missing something I should be outraged about?
Yes.  Gun accidents are none of NIH's business.

Heck, just what is the NIH's business at all?  What is the NIH's legitimate, constitutional basis for anything?

dogmush

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2009, 07:44:58 PM »
Could someone explain what the problem is?  Guns are a causal factor in gun injuries, the NIH wants to decrease gun injuries, so they want to do research on how that can be done.

So what?  Argue with whatever they recommend if you don't like it, not the fact that they are following their mission goals of decreasing injury/death.  I am sure they do the same sorts of studies on car injury/death, swimming pool injury/death, ladder injury/death, power tool injury/death....?  Am I missing something I should be outraged about?

What you're missing is that these studies include assaults in as a "gun injury".  A firearm is NOT the causal factor in an assault with a firearm, the assailant is.  So these "studies" lead to a vastly inflated picture of "gun injuries" that than (from past experience) leads to politicians trying to restrict guns so they can address a made up problem, and ignore the actual problem of violence.  This outrages most who notice the switch-up.

Standing Wolf

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2009, 09:18:10 PM »
Quote
Guns are a causal factor in gun injuries...

Guns are a causal factor in injuries the same way spoons are a causal factor in obesity.
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Waitone

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 09:32:37 PM »
Quote
I am sure they do the same sorts of studies on car injury/death, swimming pool injury/death, ladder injury/death, power tool injury/death....?  Am I missing something I should be outraged about?
Refer to my observation at the end of the article's quotation.  No evidence NIH et al intend to look at both sides of the gun equation.  They (it) intends to look at the so-called negative aspects.  No mention of the positive aspects.  Positive aspects, you ask?  How many defensive uses of firearms prevented what number of hospital admissions.  How many lives were saved through the use of firearms.  What was the savings in medical care costs when victims were able to stop an attack by simply producing a firearm. 

What is being re-planned here is to conduct a "scientific" investigation using only part of the data set.  They will not look at the positive aspects of firearm ownership simply because it would prove to be a coup de grace for an firearms ban (which is where the current administration is headed).  We are paying for good science yet what is being re-planned is hack science which will be used to justify infringement of a constitutional right.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

Scout26

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 09:36:26 PM »
Silly Waitone....

They already have the conclusions.  The "study" is simply to manipulate the data to support it....

 ;/ ;/ ;/
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longeyes

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 10:50:21 PM »
Maybe they should spend more time studying malpractice as a source of bodily harm?

Count on a modern liberal society, being based on deception and cowardice, to come at "the gun problem" by finding weapons an issue of public health and safety.  Everyone here knows where they are going with this--or they should.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2009, 04:32:32 AM »
A conspiracy theory requires, by definition, a belief in a deliberate and overreaching plot by powerful, nearly omnipotent manipulators. Obviously, no such plot exists. On the other hand, what does exist is a variety of influential people – presidential advisors, political handlers, lobbyists, and high-ranking bureaucrats, corporate bigshots, among others. Collectively they're sometimes referred to as 'the system' or 'the man', or 'the political elite'.

It's easy to fall into the trap of pretending that all of these people are deliberately collaborating with each other in some form of Masonic plot, but that's crap of course. There really is a CFR, and Bilderberg Hotel, and so forth, and influential people do meet there – they're just not meeting there as part of a MASONIC PLOT.

I'm quite certain that these people are either far smarter than Nanci Pelosi or Ted Kennedy, or at least draw their ideas and inspiration from ideologies that were contrived by intellectual who were far smarter than Ted Kennedy was.
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Strings

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 04:41:18 PM »
>Guns are a causal factor in gun injuries<

No... I do believe that guns would be the modality...

Hows about, instead of trying to focus on "gun injuries", we focus on "injuries due to violence"? And actually look at causal factors, not modalities?
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 05:48:28 PM »
Time to close the NIH loophole to the CDC budget ban.

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longeyes

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 08:08:20 PM »
Same organization that balked at tracing HIV/AIDS spreaders on the grounds of "privacy issues."  Depends on whose "gun" is doing the shooting, I guess...
"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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longeyes

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Re: So the Latest Approach to Gun Control Begins
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2009, 07:45:40 PM »
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/22/the-feds-take-a-shot-at-guns/

EDITORIAL: The feds take a shot at guns

For a decade, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has been forbidden by Congress from doing research on gun-control issues. Such piddling hurdles as federal law don't matter to the Obama administration.

With a wave of a hand, the CDC has simply redefined gun-control research so the ban no longer applies. They're not researching guns; they're researching alcohol sales and their impact on gun violence, or researching how teens carrying guns affect the rates of non-gun injuries. "These particular grants do not address gun control; rather they deal with the surrounding web of circumstances," wrote National Institutes of Health (NIH) spokesman Don Ralbovsky.

Gun-control advocates claim that banning the CDC from examining gun control amounts to a gag order on science. After all, what can be wrong with further scientific inquiry? But the issue isn't about scientific inquiry. It is whether government resources should be used to promote an ideological agenda.

Take the Obama administration's justification for its new gun research. "Gun-related violence is a public health problem - it diverts considerable health care resources away from other problems and, therefore, is of interest to NIH," wrote the agency spokesman in an e-mail responding to questions from Republican members of Congress about new grants the CDC is giving out. The statement assumes the conclusion of the research before the first study is done.

The research on right-to-carry laws illustrates the problem with the CDC. Dozens of refereed academic studies by economists and criminologists using national data have been published in journals. While the vast majority of those studies find that right-to-carry laws save lives and reduce harm to victims, some studies claim that the laws have no statistically significant effect. But most tellingly, there is not a single published refereed academic study by a criminologist or economist showing a bad effect from these laws.

Look at the refereed academic research on laws that require people to lock up their guns in their homes. The number of accidental gun deaths and suicides of children remain unchanged, but the number of murders and other crimes rises. This is not too surprising as the locks make it more difficult for potential victims to quickly obtain a gun for protection, hence criminals are less likely to be deterred. Accidental gun deaths aren't affected because most involve guns fired by adults with criminal records.

The research on guns that the CDC conducted before the ban - and that "public health" advocates continue to produce - is a joke. The statistical methods to research people's behavior, such as criminal activity, are different from methods used to evaluate drug efficacy, where controlled experiments can be done.

In drug studies, patients don't determine who gets the real drug and who gets the placebo. In real life, gun ownership isn't assigned randomly. People who are more likely to be victims are more likely to own guns. They may still be more likely to be victims even after getting a gun, but are much less likely to be a victim than they would have been if they had never gotten one.

The CDC's brazen end run around restrictions on gun-control research is hardly surprising given that when President Obama served on the board of the Joyce Foundation, it was the largest private funder of gun-ban research in the country. Now he has the resources of the whole federal government.

First we'll get the half-baked studies followed by fawning press coverage. Then Democratic politicians and activists will pretend the gun restrictions they've always wanted were spurred by the new government research.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.