Author Topic: A positive for state's rights!  (Read 11851 times)

lupinus

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2009, 04:06:50 PM »
would could post the companion photo to the one I posted earlier  =D
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2009, 05:44:34 PM »
Huh? How are banning something (drugs, guns) and mandating harsh penalties for that somethings misuse (drunk driving, shooting into the air) related? I'm curious now. My position is "No prior restraint laws." Punish misuse, not possession of something that can be misused. I really don't understand what you disagree with about that. ???
Is it not obvious? 

Your teetotaler "trap" presumes that drawing a distinction between different types of recreational drugs is irrational, that anyone who treats alcohol differently from weed or meth or whatever is somehow being hypocritical.  I think this is nonsense, and I've said so before.  But never mind that for now, we'll go with your premise that it's wrong to treat different drugs differently.

Now, drunk driving is an act which, in itself, harms nobody else.  It's only when you drive drunk and hit someone that harm occurs.  And really, the harm lies in hitting someone, not in driving drunk.  Yet you and me and society at large, all of us see the sense of making the act of drunk driving, all on its own without any harm to others, a crime. 

Does this not strike you as a contradiction?

You have a set of several concepts that are mutually exclusive.  It might be reasonable to criminalize a use of drugs that harms nobody, such as drunk driving.  Or it may be reasonable to treat all drugs the same, as your teetotaler gambit requires.  Or it might be reasonable to abolish laws against drugs because drugs harm nobody else.  But it's not reasonable, logical, or consistent to hold all of these positions at the same time.

Balog

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2009, 06:33:17 PM »
Quote
You have a set of several concepts that are mutually exclusive.  It might be reasonable to criminalize a use of drugs that harms nobody, such as drunk driving.  Or it may be reasonable to treat all drugs the same, as your teetotaler gambit requires.  Or it might be reasonable to abolish laws against drugs because drugs harm nobody else.  But it's not reasonable, logical, or consistent to hold all of these positions at the same time.

Drunk driving harms no one in the same way that pointing a loaded gun at someone harms no one. It is exceedingly reckless behaviour, and thus mala in se. What is being prohibited is acting recklessly, thus it is not prior restraint. Drunk driving is not a "use of drugs" it is a separate action taken after using that drug. Saying a bed-ridden cancer patient toking up would be no different (or worse, as it currently is) than driving drunk is patently absurd. Again, I have no issue with regulating how people behave after ingesting seriously mind altering substances. I have an issue with saying that people cannot have them in the first place.

I might be persuaded to treat different drugs differently. I'd love to see any evidence you have that marijuana is anywhere near as harmful to society as alcohol. And again, I wonder if you really would argue that society was better off under prohibition?




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MicroBalrog

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2009, 07:54:23 PM »
Drunk driving laws [in most countries, at least], do not prohibit all driving with any kind of alcohol in your body. In general, drunk driving laws prohibit driving with such an amount of alcohol that is considered to put the driver in a state in which he's legally considered 'impaired', i.e., a point after which he can no longer safely control the vehicle. While I oppose the turn these laws have taken recently in some countries - such as being used as an excuse to conduct random checks and searches of people's vehicles, etc.

I agree with those laws to the extent in which they actually serve to target unsafe driving practices.
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seeker_two

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2009, 06:59:57 AM »
Why would I post pictures of myself wearing something like that? If I'm going to post barely-dressed erotic photos of myself, I would just post naked erotic photos of myself and get it over with.  =D =D

If you did, I would probably change my mind about legalizing drugs...esp. any drug that would make me forget or go blind.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2009, 10:25:18 PM »
Drunk driving harms no one in the same way that pointing a loaded gun at someone harms no one. It is exceedingly reckless behaviour, and thus mala in se. What is being prohibited is acting recklessly, thus it is not prior restraint. Drunk driving is not a "use of drugs" it is a separate action taken after using that drug. Saying a bed-ridden cancer patient toking up would be no different (or worse, as it currently is) than driving drunk is patently absurd. Again, I have no issue with regulating how people behave after ingesting seriously mind altering substances. I have an issue with saying that people cannot have them in the first place.

I might be persuaded to treat different drugs differently. I'd love to see any evidence you have that marijuana is anywhere near as harmful to society as alcohol. And again, I wonder if you really would argue that society was better off under prohibition?

Huh.  Ya know, I think you're exactly right.  Reckless behaviors, actions that put others at increased risk, are mala in se and need to be treated accordingly.  Placing another at risk infringes on his liberties.  This shoulda been obvious to me, yet somehow I've missed this point.

This is exactly why I have a problem with unregulated narcotics.  Use of a substance that impairs the judgment, or that has a serious chance of leading to irrational and compulsive behavior, is highly reckless.  At least, it is if the user is impaired while in public, or while responsible for another, or whatever. 

I'd never thought of it in those terms, but I think you're exactly right that being reckless and endangering others is a harm all on its own.  I've understood intuitively that lessening ones judgment and/or making oneself irrational is something that is incompatible with civil society.  Your way of phrasing it distills and conveys the concept quite nicely.

I'll have to remember this.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 10:44:12 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2009, 11:10:53 PM »
How is being drunk in public dangerous to others?  What I'm getting at is thus:  sure, regulate the idiot decisions.  Make it illegal to swing a la Tarzan from power lines but what difference does it make if you are drunk, high or just plain retarded?  If you're putting others in danger, you're putting others in danger.  I know plenty of people who put others at risk due to compulsive and irrational behavior who have never touched illegal drugs in their life.  Why do you care if people make irrational or compulsive behaviors if they are not putting others at risk?

In other words, don't make alcohol or marijuana illegal but make the actions that actually infringe on others' rights illegal.  You don't have to be drunk or high to put others at risk and the mere act of being drunk or high in no way (that I can see) infringes on others' rights.   

I'd also like to point out that the OP was about medical marijuana, not decriminalization or legalization. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2009, 11:25:58 PM »
It's not the drunkeness that matters, it's the impaired judgment.  It's the fact that all too often people with impaired judgment perform actions that injurious to others, in ways minor or major, often without even being aware of it.

An extreme example would be the story we saw a while back about the father who flipped out on acid and chewed his infant son's face off.  Impairing yourself on acid while you're responsible for the care of a child endangers the child, and as Balog points out, that is a form of harm against the child all on its own.  

A minor example would be a punk who's so drunk that he doesn't realize that puking up on your wife is unacceptable behavior.  It endangers others to impair yourself on alcohol so heavily that you don't realize you're assaulting someone.  Again, it's a harmful act all on its own, without needing any overt damage.

It gets back to the fact that we make driving while intoxicated a prosecutable crime, and rightfully so.  We don't wait for the act of wrecking while intoxicated before involving the legal system.


I'd also like to point out that the OP was about medical marijuana, not decriminalization or legalization.  
And the thread remained about medical mj, right up until we tried to cast alcohol drinkers as hypocrites for not supporting drug legalization.  I suppose it was near inevitable that this thread would head off into the legalization vs criminalization debate.

But you're right.  I'll quit with the legalization vs criminalization stuff.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 01:07:31 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Balog

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2009, 02:06:52 AM »
Given that alcohol impairs judgement every bit as much as marijuana, I stand by my remarks re hypocrisy.

The problem with your argument is degree of impairment. It is very possible to use alcohol or weed and be a normal functioning member of society. Some drugs (PCP and meth come to mind) may not be possible to use in a responsible way.

But lots of things impair judgement. Lack of sleep, too much caffeine, low blood sugar... If your standard is "criminalize things that impair judgement" you'll need people to keep sleep records to prove they aren't sleep deprived and cops to do glucose tests to make sure you haven't skipped too many meals. Having impaired judgement cannot be mala in se at all times, in all degrees.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2009, 09:04:16 AM »
Damn near every legalization debate veers into some pretty nasty territory.  Drive this one back to where it started, state's rights and drug laws, not the morality or hypocrisy of those laws.
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Gewehr98

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2009, 11:20:50 AM »
And where does one draw the legal line at impairment/judgement?

You get folks who swear they're even better drivers/pool players/whatever after a few drinks.

I've seen some seriously baked weedsmokers, and even sold several thousands of dollars worth of professional equipment to an individual who reminded me of Spicoli on Fast Times at Ridgemont High.  This was at 9 in the morning, and he hit Hwy A1A as soon as he left our shop, weaving all over the place with his Explorer and trailer full of high-dollar zero-turn mowers.  I figured it was Satellite Beach PD that would make the stop, after I got my big sale for the day.

IOW, one man's judgement is another man's negligence.  Where does one define the point at which that begins and ends?

There was a famous case where a bartender was recently charged with manslaughter when the patron basically drank herself to death...

I doubt one can.  "Look, I'll sell you this 12-pack on the condition you don't do something stupid..." 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2009, 11:28:44 AM »
???

Why would it be a problem to draw a line?  We do it all the time when it comes to impaired driving, and we don't have any great difficulty at it. 


Gewehr98

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2009, 11:29:39 AM »
Why is it limited to driving?  As if that's some gawd-given right of the American people...
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2009, 11:31:24 AM »
I didn't think it was limited to driving.  

I'm just pointing out that we easily can and do make sensible legal distinctions based on the level of someone's impairment.  I don't understand the folks who say this can't be done.

Strings

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2009, 12:36:37 PM »
Because the "line in the sand" doesn't seem to stay put?

Thinking drunk driving BAC here...
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MicroBalrog

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2009, 01:22:42 PM »
Does anybody think the Federal government actually has the authority to pass drug laws?

In other terms:

If the Tenth Amendment really allows for the Federal government to ban marijuana, is there any other substance that Congress cannot ban, and if yes, why?

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Balog

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Re: A positive for state's rights!
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2009, 11:10:17 PM »
No, the feds shouldn't be involved at all. But the states on the other hand...
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.