parenting advice sought...long

[telewinz]

OK my son (23) has a new lease on life.  He failed in a program in which he had signed-up for several years ago leaving him heavily in debt ($60M, he also maxed-out his credit cards TWICE on luxuries living waaay beyond his means).  Needless to say I was extremely disappointed in him although I have done my best NOT to say anything I might regret.  One year ago and before we were very close...Boy Scouts and such.  He is VERY immature and tends to feel that he can "talk" his way out of everything but as I warned him, don't confuse tolerance with acceptance.  Well 7 months ago it caught up with him and we both have been suffering (Where have I failed?).  He has been given a second chance (technical error) to just about wipe the slate clean and finish what he started.  The past several months have been a learning experience for him and I think this time he'll buck-up and do whats required instead of "having a good time".  Unfortunately he left today and didn't even say goodbye to me (call me at work?).  I could have woken him at 7AM this morning to say goodbye but I didn't want to disturb him.  I know this situation is not  uncommon between sons and fathers but I had hoped to avoid it.  I guess it wasn't possible.  He's fine with his mother (signs the checks and is "understanding") who is very undemanding.  Just now my son called and spoke to his mother, he didn't even ask if I was home.  I sent him a email asking why he didn't say goodbye but I won't beg for his affection, it's something that has to be given not demanded.  In his book I guess I'm an S.O.B. but I don't feel Ive been unkind or unfair with him (My family (brother & sister ect.) agrees whole heartily with my views and thinks very poorly of my son's past behavior.  What do I do?  Eat my pride (and reason) and mend the fence no matter what the cost or just wait the situation out.  I live and have lived by more conservative values than my son but I have no desire to force my values on him or anyone else.  I do believe that I am a parent NOT an insurance agent paying for the mistakes that he made with both eyes wide open (luck will be with me?).  He knows better, he just REPEATLY made the same easy, self-indulgent decisions and resents me (I feel) due to the consequences.  Life isn't simple.  For what it's worth, I am highly regarded at work and by my family (most of them anyhow, at least the ones I respect).  A wide spectrum of advice would be welcome.

[Guest]

Be nice to him but don't pay his bills and don't let him guilt you into do it. He's 23, not 13. Time to deal with his own consequences.

[bratch]

I replied to a post but its gone.

Best of luck with your son.

[280plus]

First off I'm HOPING you meant $60K not $60M. If you bail them out every time they screw up they'll come to expect that to happen. The better lesson is to let him work his own way out of his messes. If he wants to give you the cold shoulder because he's not getting his way, so be it. There will sometimes be a break between son and father at about this age. Once he matures he'll be back. Just don't make it a big issue so that it turns into some spiteful permanent rift thing between you. I've seen THAT before. Do your best to keep a level head and not drive him any further away by blowing your cool is all I can say. All you can do now is offer advice. Whether he takes it or not is up to him and should not become a bone of contention between you.

Just my $0.02

[telewinz]

"Do your best to keep a level head and not drive him any further away by blowing your cool is all I can say. All you can do now is offer advice. Whether he takes it or not is up to him and should not become a bone of contention between you."  

That's pretty much what I have been doing and if it were anyone but my son....I just don't get that good, warm feeling inside anymore.  I'm disappointed in his weakness/behavior and he feels I "bailed-out" on him, that hurts.  I told him I'd help him in his program (NOT paying his irresponsible debts) but hence forth unless it's a legitimate expense (he manipulates) he'll have to learn the hard way through the consequences of his own deliberate poor judgement.  I had really hoped to avoid all this pain for him and me, I hope his mother slipping him money on the QT doesn't undermine me.  I feel this will end up in a positive manner for him but the emotional cost is very high for me.  I (and others I respect) feel I'm doing the right thing but I feel like I'm standing on a mountain top all alone.  That he may understand 20 years from now (when I'm dead) gives little comfort.  Thanks for the wisdom.  I'm still open minded and searching (for relief?).

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Don't enable him.  He'll come around.
In the mean time, a cautionary tale:
My brother is 28 years old.  The baby of 4 kids, came along late in my parents' life and was treated to financial opulence the likes of which none of the other 3 kids saw.

He did get 2 different full ride college baseball scholarships.  Quit the first one, beat up the coach at the second one.  

Graduated from school 4 years ago, has never held a job more than a few months at best and usually survives by selling drugs.  Has at least 2 children by young women he's shacked up with, and has now married the second one (here's hoping it "takes").

Mom and Dad (in their early '70's now) STILL continue to give him money, pay auto insurance, and so on.

Let him learn NOW-- tough love!  
You'll be glad you did.

Fig

[Jamisjockey]

Be nice to him but don't pay his bills and don't let him guilt you into do it. He's 23, not 13. Time to deal with his own consequences.

Amen.

Encourage him to declare bankruptcy and go into the military, too.

[bratch]

First off I'm HOPING you meant $60K not $60M.

M is the Roman numeral for 1000. I know it is comonly used in the oil industry and I'll assume other industries as well.  NAtural gas is sold by the MBTU or 1000 BTU and money is written $60M for $60000.

So $60M=$60K just a diferent system.

Once again good luck with your son.

[jefnvk]

I'll give you some advice from the kid's view.

Don't bail him out.

If he wants help figuring out how to get this settled, help him.  But don't settle it for him.

I'll also tell you what worked for me.  Don't keep offering to get him out of trouble.  Wait until he realizes the problems he has, and asks for help.  None of those money/life talks really sinked in until it finally dawned on me what was happening, I always thought people were trying to pinch a penny here or there.  Although, I will say that it wasn't as bad in the situtation he sounds like he is in, my debt was measured in a few hundred dollars.

[telewinz]

Thanks for the advice, I'll stay the course.  If he succeeds the SECOND time (3rd, 4th?) 2/3's of the $60,000 will be wiped-out.  But I can see him getting all high and mighty and full of himself thinking "I did it on my own, the hell with the old man".  I hate to lose him but I guess I can focus on my daughter (18 and a very mature champion).  Thanks for the advice.

[280plus]

So $60M=$60K just a diferent system.

New one on me...  

I think we're all talking about what "they" call "tough love". He's going to have to sink or swim and you're going to have to be tough enough to let it happen. Too many people destroy their own lives trying to prevent their kids (or spouses) from destroying theirs.

One motto I've developed over the years is that:

"You can talk, rant and rave till you're blue in the face but if the person you're trying to help doesn't want to help themselves you are wasting your breath."

Try not to favor one over the other. That will only breed resentment between them. I've seen that too.

[Ex-MA Hole]

I'll give you some advice from the kid's view.

Don't bail him out.

If he wants help figuring out how to get this settled, help him.  But don't settle it for him.

I'll also tell you what worked for me.  Don't keep offering to get him out of trouble.  Wait until he realizes the problems he has, and asks for help.  None of those money/life talks really sinked in until it finally dawned on me what was happening, I always thought people were trying to pinch a penny here or there.  Although, I will say that it wasn't as bad in the situtation he sounds like he is in, my debt was measured in a few hundred dollars.

+1.  I wasn't 60m in debt, but was well on my way.  Looking back (I'm now 32 and still make some mistakes), the best advice is that if he THINKS he is an adult, then treat him like one.  It will (I'm sure) be tough, but there will be a respect later.

Think of him as a 6 month old*, of course he likes mommy more, everytime he cries and throws a temper tantrum, he get the proverbial piece of candy.  

* I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT YOU SON IS A 6 MONTH OLD, I AM JUST GIVING A MORE CUT AND DRY EXAMPLE TO MAKE A POINT.


----------------------------------
(FWIW---> M= 1,000 in the printing world to.  When I read a newspaper I ALWAYS get confused as to what THEIR M equals...)

[Guest]

Let him be a grownup. Don't bail him out of trouble unless its something that genuinely wasnt his fault, and he genuinely needs help that you are able to give. Let him screw up because thats how kids learn things. The early-mid twenties is a really bizarre age for most men (and probably women too) he is only now figuring out what the heck he is supposed to do with himself, and he is probably desperately confused about everything. He probably doesnt like you now simply because you are his dad, and when kids move out they remember how much you rained on his parade. Stick with it, and dont smother the guy and you guys will probably get along better than you have since he was a little kid after a few years. You just have to learn to relate to him as a man, and he needs to learn how to relate to you in the same way, its probably a lot harder for him than it is for you.

I went through a lot of the same nonsense at his age. I didnt get in as deeply in debt as he did, and I always had a weird sort of pride thing where I didnt ask for help even when I probably needed it. Despite that, i still really didnt get along with my dad, and I continued to make the same sort of mistakes over and over again. At 26 I now have a better relationship with my father than I ever had in the past, we actually like spending time together and I give him a call every now and then. I just needed my space to screw up and figure out what made me tick, you kid probably needs the same thing.

Every single person I know was *deeply* messed up in their early-to-mid 20s. Our society pretty much sets people up for this as its the first time they are really left to their own devices. I would be lying if I said I was completely together, but I think that i have learned enough to say that he will eventually get it together in one way or another.

[Art Eatman]

Another vote for Tough Love.  A kid has to get his own act together; "Old Folks" can't do it for them.

It's natural to love a kid and want to help.  It's also natural to not LIKE a kid, certainly on a short-term basis.  Even your kid has to earn your respect, 'cause respect is only earned.

Art

[bermbuster]

Be nice to him but don't pay his bills and don't let him guilt you into do it. He's 23, not 13. Time to deal with his own consequences.

Ditto.

[SADShooter]

Let me also throw in what may be a little hope for the future. My dad's father died when he was an infant. He grew up in a single parent, working poor household with Depression-era values. Career military, he married my mother, and I came along (only child) in his mid-thirties. All this to say my father didn't have a role model, didn't understand a father-son relationship. I had it far easier than he did, because he worked to make it so. Dad couldn't see that my perspective was different because my upbringing was different. So, we had a tough time until I became an adult (I hope). Now that I can understand why he is who he is and we can relate to one another as adults, we have a much better relationship.

So, I hope that as your son matures, he will understand that the mistakes were his to make, and he will come to appreciate your philosophy and behavior as his father not as punishment or neglect, but the love you expressed as best you could.

[The Rabbi]

All great advice given here.
I'll add that you need to get on the same page with your wife over this.  If she's the "soft touch" then your son will simply by-pass you all the time and go straight to mom.
Sometimes we hurt our kids by trying to help them.

[grampster]

The major problem with being a parent is that one expects the kid to live up to the expectation of the parent.  If they do, it is pure, unadultarated luck of the draw.  Why do I know this?  I have two sons in their mid to late 30's.  I have spent most of my parenting life trying to come to grips with  the fact that they are individuals.   I embeded good and bad habits in them, from my words, deeds and lack of same.  Then they made decisions based on the aforementioned and their own selfish/unselfish interests and observations.  That is life.  At a point they go their own way.  It does not stop the hollow pain in the center of your being when they spread a little stupidity etc around.  That is life too.

Kids are a roller coaster ride.  Some of us are blessed with a flat track, but the majority of us, if the truth were known, are on a hair raising ride till the day we die.
We love 'em till the day we die.  We celebrate their success and agonize over their defeats.

Good luck.  I have no advice.  What will be, will be and you have no control over it.
He's rolling the dice and you are the table they bounce around on.

[Chris]

When I moved out, my dad told me there would always be a roof and a meal available at his home.  I later took him up on this between law school and a career, only to learn that he truly meant a roof and a meal.  All else was my responsibility, from putting gas in the tank of my car, to insurance payments, to whatever other expenses I had.  Basically, Dad was a safety net to keep me off the streets and from going hungry.  Be that for your son.  AS for the relationship, wait a while and see what develops.  You son may be learning the hard way that you will offer him a hand up, but not a hand out.

A wise man told me that when a child is young, he steps on  your toes.  When the child gets older, he often steps on your heart.  You're living that, I'm sorry to say.

[grampster]

Cas,

Your last paragraph says in two sentences what I was trying to say in several paragraphs.  Very clear, very true!

[K Frame]

Chances are you won't lose him.

Your relationship will never really be the same, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, given what you've recounted.

[telewinz]

WOW! Great advice especially from the younger crowd.

"I'll add that you need to get on the same page with your wife over this.  If she's the "soft touch" then your son will simply by-pass you all the time and go straight to mom."
 
Regrettably I've had to live with this "handicap" for years, their is no "fix" short of a divorce.

"he truly meant a roof and a meal.  All else was my responsibility, from putting gas in the tank of my car, to insurance payments, to whatever other expenses I had.  Basically, Dad was a safety net to keep me off the streets and from going hungry."

Your Dad and I could have been best friends.

"Chances are you won't lose him."

True but I had always hoped that we would be friends, that we would enjoy each others company and respect each other.

[280plus]

Regrettably I've had to live with this "handicap" for years, their is no "fix" short of a divorce.

Believe me, a divorce wouldn't even work. Chance are at that point she'd REVEL in undermining your authority. Try your best to make her understand that she's not helping him. He needs a consistent united front from both parents.

[K Frame]

"True but I had always hoped that we would be friends, that we would enjoy each others company and respect each other."

There's no saying you won't be.

There's an old saying by Mark Twain...

"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."

Sounds like that's what you're hitting right now, only the age cycle has been extended somewhat.

Ultimately, he's got to make his own decisions, and his own mistakes, and live by their results. It sounds like he's experiencing that right now, full force, for the first time, and it's kind of unsettling for him. He may even resent you somewhat, not for being there for him, but because you're at the point where you can be. Complex and confusing.

Don't lose hope, but don't hold out unrealistic expectations, either. Realize that the view you have of your hopes for your relationship may take years to develop, and may develop totally differently from what you expect.

As an aside, it's funny, but I got into a minor fight with my parents this weekend over money. They wanted to give me some to help me out with some costs that I'm having to defer because of a major expense I had for my pet's health. I refused to take the money. When I moved out on my own after college, I made the decision that I was never going to dip back into the parents in the way that my older, and a LOT more selfish, brother has repeatedly done over the years.

[280plus]

I remember some one telling me once that at 26 they think they know everything about everything. So be prepared.

I know exactly what you're feeling. You want the very best for them and you know the track they are on will not get that for them. And they won't listen to you. Very frustrating.

I watched mine blow scholarships to a very good school. His GPA for his second semester was 0.00. I tried to advise him throughout the whole ordeal. He said ,"Yea, yea, yea,,," but in the end he didn't listen. Smart kid too, he doesn't yet realize what he's wasted. In a way it's ok though. I have been squirreling away $ for education forever and they know about it. The deal with both my kids was, "It's for education. If you don't use it, I will." The other one is 19, I've been on his ass to get into the local Community College. He says, "Yea. yea, yea." but it ain't happening as far as I can see. I may get back in school yet. Maybe I'll go to Yale. My grandfather always wanted me to go to Yale. I joined the Navy.