Author Topic: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky  (Read 31895 times)

Balog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2009, 04:42:09 PM »
Radicalism is, however, opposed to incrementalism. If incrementalism is "an excuse to do nothing"  ;/ then radicalism is an excuse to accomplish nothing.

You ask where the libertarian New Deal is. It's waiting for the groundwork to be laid by the incrementalists you refuse to support and be a part of. Cato doesn't need help, cause it's already so big and powerful? Please.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2009, 04:51:56 PM »
I've donated to Cato before, and I've purchased a variety of Cato products. I've also donated (by purchasing vastly overpriced items wherein the overhead goes to the charity) to Bureaucrash.

But it's simply not true that radicalism accomplishes nothing.  How would it accomplish nothing to support Rand Paul?
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Balog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2009, 05:00:53 PM »
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I already know groups like Cato are slowly promoting and growing libertarianism. There already is a movement of incrementalist libertarians, it's large and plentiful and it does not need me, nor am I suited for participation in it.

I had a bitch of a time finding this, since it's misformatted. :P

Supporting Rand Paul is not radicalism. Perhaps you should go back and reread Carebear's posts.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2009, 05:14:31 PM »
Bear in mind, I'm not against "radical" ideas.

But, as has been stated earlier, the more radical the idea the more presentation matters.

If you want to propose a radical shift in policy then the people presenting, and publically supporting, that shift need to be as calm, vanilla, non-threatening and patient in presentation.  You're selling something, act like good salesmen, blend with your prospective customer.

If you want to change something in the majority, it is best to actively conform to that majority in every other outward appearance.  Anything extraneous you do that is weird or scary gives that majority, whose buy-in you absolutely have to have, a reason to reject (or ridicule not on the merits) your position.

It is not enough to be "right", you have to be right in a smart, downright crafty, manner.

Similarly, you should attempt to change one thing at a time (incrementalism).  Don't go pushing for a return to the gold standard, abolishing the Fed and no gun and drug restrictions all at once in every press conference or presentation, even to the faithful.

That is too big of a bite and in seeking to get all, you'll get none.  That again needs incrementalism, turning up the water temp one issue at a time so the frog majority can get used to the idea.

That is what the Left and the statists have been doing all this time, little bites eating the elephant.

Meanwhile the radicals of freedom keep trying to shove their platform down America's throat all at once.
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MechAg94

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2009, 05:16:27 PM »
1.History is not a science. Read your Mises. The fact the statists took 60 years to get here doesn't mean we'll get fifty years to get there.
2.The statists succeeded through lots of tiny steps, and several big ones. Where is the libertarian New Deal?
3.The statists incorporated radicals as a subgroup in their movement and utilized them. Even a gradualist movement needs radicals.
4.Not everything is amenable to gradualist solutions.
5.What possible incentive do I, as an individual, have to work something I will never achieve in my lifetime and gain no moral or personal satisfaction in?
1.  It may not take 60 years, but it won't get done in 6 months or 4 years.    
2.  The Libertarian New Deal is waiting on the volunteers to write it (I mean real legislation) and the "electable" candidate to support it.  Please also note that the New Deal was specific legislation with the goal of getting it passed within a period of time.  It was part of the incremental changes that got us here, not a one shot deal.
3.  However, The Candidate cannot appear to be one of the radicals.  It seems, from comments here, that Rand is doing that better than Ron did.  
4.  It is not All or Nothing.  Even incremental steps toward smaller govt and less taxes is a benefit to everyone in the short term and the long term.  Honestly, there is a lot of personal satisfaction in making positive progress toward larger goals.  
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MicroBalrog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2009, 05:49:03 PM »

1. That depends on us. There's no fate but what we make.
2.The New Deal was also a set of changes that create massive social institutions that simply did not exist before, and created an entirely new view of government. This was also when the Switch in Time happened. What we need is a change of the same level.
3.Rand Paul, though, is using the volunteer network created by Ron Paul's run to go on. That's where a lot of his money and volunteer manpower comes from. Ron Paul's run was in this sense an investment because the freedom movement is still reaping benefits from it. Look how often RP is getting invited to speak on television, compared to other Representatives.
4.Okay, so you tell me. Suppose it takes 60 years to repeal the NFA. I'm going to be eighty-five-years-old. Anybody who's been imprisoned under the NFA or the Controlled Substances Act or whatnot, in your world view, they're just screwed? Should we just leave guys like Wayne Fincher and Olofson and Marc Emery behind? Some guy gets imprisoned for ten years, their property is taken away, they can never vote or own guns or get a decent job, and we should just laugh it away?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 06:06:19 PM by MicroBalrog »
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Balog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2009, 06:02:29 PM »
No one is saying we shouldn't try to repeal bad laws or expand freedom. No one is saying it wouldn't be awesome if we woke up tomorrow and all bad laws were gone. We're saying it's unrealistic. I wish you could run out and smoke weed and buy a machine gun too Micro. But it's childish to just stamp your foot and say "I wan' it now!" Good for you. That doesn't mean we can realistically get it all right now.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2009, 06:06:35 PM »
Bah, I fail at copy-pasting.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2009, 12:51:07 PM »
Elsewhere, both the father and son made an appearance on TV: Here.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

richyoung

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2009, 11:28:44 AM »
Now, it is true that wanting liberty is no vice.  However, crazy, foolish, extremist behaviors are often a very big problem, a fact frequently demonstrated by the Paulian fanatics.

So you can HAVE liberty - yo ujust can't USE it.... unless YOU approve?


Are you sure that's liberty?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2009, 11:40:24 AM »
not sure about that i do know the lunatic fringe behavior dooms the campaign.  makes it like milking a mouse  lots of noise and movement  minimal result. ymmv
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #86 on: November 12, 2009, 12:24:52 PM »
So you can HAVE liberty - yo ujust can't USE it.... unless YOU approve?


Are you sure that's liberty?
I think you missed the point.  

There are certain behaviors which prove detrimental to a campaign or a political movement.  Paulians frequently display these detrimental tendencies.  

I'm not saying the Paulians aren't allowed to behave that way.  I'm saying that behaving that way is counterproductive and foolish.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #87 on: November 12, 2009, 01:19:12 PM »
and a darn shame since it relegates some real decent alternative policy to the "never heard of it file".
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #88 on: November 12, 2009, 01:55:27 PM »
and a darn shame since it relegates some real decent alternative policy to the "never heard of it file".

Here's the question:

Do you agree with the policy?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2009, 02:01:47 PM »
some of it?  absolutely  and on some of the parts i'm fence sitting on i might give him a shot based on performance.  however hes not got a shot ant performance since his scolytes have made him unelectable.  heck even in his home district he didn't carry the vote  and they obviously like him as congressman
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2009, 02:15:17 PM »
In  a primary, I would vote for the candidate I actually agreed with, no matter how wacky he appeared to me.

I realize my positions are not mainstream in the current climate. People who hold non-mainstream opinions are often wacky. That's part of reality and I live with it.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

CNYCacher

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2009, 02:15:39 PM »
some of it?  absolutely  and on some of the parts i'm fence sitting on i might give him a shot based on performance.  however hes not got a shot ant performance since his scolytes have made him unelectable.  heck even in his home district he didn't carry the vote  and they obviously like him as congressman

I think a lot of blame is being shifted off of the stonewalling media and onto the convenient target: Wacky Paul Supporters.

IIRC, Paul received millions or tens of millions of votes in the Presidential race.  How many Wacky "Paulians" out of those millions did you actually witness being wacky?  And where did you witness this?  On your TV?

Seriously, how many wookies were there really?  Just the one?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2009, 02:30:32 PM »
its not the wookies  its the rabid folks on the net that seemed so sure that they knew the path to nirvana if only the rest of the world could be as smart as they were. seen that before
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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CNYCacher

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2009, 02:36:43 PM »
its not the wookies  its the rabid folks on the net that seemed so sure that they knew the path to nirvana if only the rest of the world could be as smart as they were. seen that before

You just aren't getting it :rolleyes:
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2009, 02:50:41 PM »
someone said it better
The attitude: I've mentioned this before. But when you've got no name recognition, people don't understand your position, you can't get on TV , your campaign is paralyzed, and people link you to "fringe groups" , the last thing that's going to help is hearing some nut screaming at the top of his lungs that Ron Paul is the greatest man since Jesus. It makes your canidate look like Lyndon LaRouche. People go with what they see, and for every time I had a calm, logical discussion with a RP supporter, I had five times I had to listen to a disjointed diatribe about liberty that told me nothing about how RP would deal with my problems, or the problems I thought that this country needed to address, and everything about things I didn't care about. Perhaps that's me...the votes suggest otherwise.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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CNYCacher

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2009, 08:15:47 PM »
if only the rest of the world could be as smart as they were.

You just aren't getting it :rolleyes:

^^ That was me pretending to think the rest of the world isn't as smart as me
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

Perd Hapley

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2009, 10:27:25 PM »
I think a lot of blame is being shifted off of the stonewalling media and onto the convenient target: Wacky Paul Supporters.


Yeah, there are other people to blame for Paul's poor showing.  Paul himself, for instance. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2009, 10:33:57 PM »
Yeah, there are other people to blame for Paul's poor showing.  Paul himself, for instance. 
No!  You blame the Republicans!  It's always the Republicans' fault.  Everything, whether it's their fault or not.  It's their fault.

And it's the eeeevil two party system.  The system conspires to keep out great leaders who aren't part of the eeeevil two party system.  Except when the great leaders are part of the two party system, in which case the two party system conspires to keep out its own members because it's just that eeevil.

 =D

Perd Hapley

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2009, 11:10:08 PM »
Hey boy!  Who do you think you're talkin' to?  Don't tell me about blame.  I'm an expert on blame!

  Except when the great leaders are part of the two party system, in which case the two party system conspires to keep out its own members because it's just that eeevil.

That does seem to be the way it works.   =(  And I don't mean RP.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Rand Paul's surge in Kentucky
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2009, 11:27:37 PM »
I knew it!  Fistful isn't just a member of the Republican Party, he is the Republican Party!  That's how it's always their fault.