Fort Hood, TX: Shooting

[Perd Hapley]

Hypothetical:  If the Christian Church suddenly changed their views and said that all Muslims
must be wiped-out, would you wage war on your neighbors?

Well, if "the Church" suddenly changed its view that radically, I'd probably be shopping for a new church.  Wouldn't you?

But I see your point.  If I believed in that kind of religion, then maybe I would go all Dr. Hasan.  But that would be the result of my religion, not because of the priority I put on it.  

I think religion is, by definition, the first thing in everyone's life.  If you put America before your "religion," then America is your religion.  Of course, one could do worse.   

[Marnoot]

I think religion is, by definition, the first thing in everyone's life.

Well put. Some people worship the almighty dollar, others worship a hobby, some worship an ideology, some worship a vice, some worship a deity.

[roo_ster]

One mans jihad is another mans crusade.

Well, if certain portions of America were overrun by the forces of Islam and those overrun were forced to convert (if Jewish or Christian*) or accept dhimmi status, I would have no problem participating or calling it a crusade.  You could call it a jelly roll, for I would care.

Which is pretty much what happened to the lands the crusaders fought over: formerly Christian, overrun by the forces of Islam, Christians fighting to get them back.

Heck, there were "crusades" up through at least the 17th & 18th centuries, as the Ottomans fought up through the Balkans and laid siege to Vienna a few times  in that period.






* RevDisk, BP, and fellow pagans would not have the luxury of practicing their religion as dhimmi subjugated citizens.  Pagans get to convert or die, period.  If it came down to it, I'd claim y'all and forge records of your baptisms in my family Bible to give y'all cover..."Oh, yeah, those guys are Eco-Protestants.  Never heard of them?  Well, there are over 15,000 distinct Christian denominations in America.  Think holding church in a stand of trees is odd, lemme introduce you to my charismatic buddies up in the foothills.  Got any antivenin on you, perchance?"

[BlueStarLizzard]

at this point my concern has come to the latest "cop killing" guns.

[SteveS]

I've known a few shrinks on a social basis over the years. I know I'm generalizing but ... as a group, at least based on the ones I've known, they make a pretty scary group.

Me too, both on a personal level and a professional level.  I would agree with your assessment.

[RevDisk]

* RevDisk, BP, and fellow pagans would not have the luxury of practicing their religion as dhimmi subjugated citizens.  Pagans get to convert or die, period.  If it came down to it, I'd claim y'all and forge records of your baptisms in my family Bible to give y'all cover..."Oh, yeah, those guys are Eco-Protestants.  Never heard of them?  Well, there are over 15,000 distinct Christian denominations in America.  Think holding church in a stand of trees is odd, lemme introduce you to my charismatic buddies up in the foothills.  Got any antivenin on you, perchance?"

Funny you should mention that.  Considering the pagans specifically mentioned have spent more time in Islamic countries and around Muslims than the average APS'er and survived the experience quite nicely. 

Actually, doubly funny you should mention that...  I'm pondering going to an Islamic country for an extended visit.  Possibly very extended visit.  The economy ain't great, and turning down six figure all-expense-paid work ain't easy.

[Balog]

There's Islamic countries, and there's Islamic countries. I'd love to spend a stint in Dubai, amazing buildings they have there.

[Matthew Carberry]

Besides various degrees of religious tolerance (one assumes any invading/conquering Islamic authority isn't prone to be of the super-tolerant type to begin with), there's also the matter that such visiting was done as tourists or members of the military.  In the former situation I presume religion wasn't a big topic of conversation with the local religious authorities and one is a guest regardless; and the latter where one is a guest with a lot of heavily armed friends.

Both are very different situations than living in a (conquerer's) society as a resident/citizen and having to obey said society's new religious rules.

[Perd Hapley]

Do we know yet, what guns Hasan used, or whence they came? 

[S. Williamson]

Rumored to be a FN 5.7.

[zahc]

Hypothetical:  If the Christian Church suddenly changed their views and said that all Muslims
must be wiped-out, would you wage war on your neighbors?

This doesn't really make sense. I'm not a member of any one 'church organization' and if 'the Church' as a whole changed its views then it wouldn't be the Church anymore, and I wouldn't care anyway. As it is, I'm in sharp disagreement with a good chunk of the organizations that call themselves christian churches already. So I guess I sympathize with muslims who have to deal with radicals like this guy, and try to convince everyone that not every muslim is like him (see:Westboro Baptist Church).

[MillCreek]

Do we know yet, what guns Hasan used, or whence they came? 

On NPR yesterday, they reported they were a FN 5.7 and a .357 revolver.

[Jamisjockey]

Interesting, today the FBI is investigating a Mosque here in NoVA where he attended a few years ago.  The Mosque leader is in Yemen now, and praised Hassans actions......  I think we'll get a clear picture of where he was radicialized....

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

In other news, major news organizations are still trying to find a motive for the killings...

[jackdanson]

You could call it a jelly roll, for I would care.

Sounds tasty.  Where do I get to sign up for this crusade for jelly rolls?

Back to srsness.  On the one hand I want to say "rawr, it was Islam, blame Islam".  On the other hand there are what? 2 million muslims in the U.S.?  If even one percent were nut jobs we would be seeing a lot more problems than we currenty are.  That makes me think the vast majority are probably decent people.

[AZRedhawk44]

On NPR yesterday, they reported they were a FN 5.7 and a .357 revolver.

Is this why there were only 12 dead and 31 wounded?  12 with the .357 and 31 with the 5.7?  Morbid to speculate at right now, I know... but the 5.7 doesn't have a lot of wound lethality history behind it and it is a mere .22 caliber just at higher speed.

[jackdanson]

Is this why there were only 12 dead and 31 wounded?  12 with the .357 and 31 with the 5.7?  Morbid to speculate at right now, I know... but the 5.7 doesn't have a lot of wound lethality history behind it and it is a mere .22 caliber just at higher speed.

I doubt it worked out exactly like that, but I'm sure it was something like that.  A 40 gr. varmint or hollow tip going ~2000 fps is going to be bad times though.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Is this why there were only 12 dead and 31 wounded?  12 with the .357 and 31 with the 5.7?  Morbid to speculate at right now, I know... but the 5.7 doesn't have a lot of wound lethality history behind it and it is a mere .22 caliber just at higher speed.

I doubt it. I figure he emptied both of them as fast as he could (dual wielding?), discarded the revolver, and reloaded the Five-Seven a few times before he was put down (I think they come with 3 mags as a default). Operating a speedloader under stress takes a goodly amount of practice for the non-Miculeks among us.

[makattak]

I doubt it. I figure he emptied both of them as fast as he could (dual wielding?), discarded the revolver, and reloaded the Five-Seven a few times before he was put down (I think they come with 3 mags as a default). Operating a speedloader under stress takes a goodly amount of practice for the non-Miculeks among us.

I believe reports indicate that only the FiveSeven was used.

Edit: Found link

http://www.sfexaminer.com/politics/ap/ap-sources-57-mm-pistol-used-in-fort-hood-rampage-was-purchased-legally-at-texas-gun-store-69404747.html

One of the law enforcement officials said that gun was an older model Smith & Wesson .357-caliber revolver, but the official added there's nothing so far to indicate the second weapon was fired. The official said the revolver was so old, investigators doubt it could be traced to a specific purchase.

[Hawkmoon]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873In other news, major news organizations are still trying to find a motive for the killings...

And in still other news, the President, Janet Napolitano and some dude from the Pentagon are all asking us not to assume that Hasan's religion might have been at all responsible for the attack.

This would be the same President who didn't hesitate a nanosecond to accuse a Cambridge, MA, cop of being a racist because he investigated a report of a possible burglary. Is there ANY lingering doubt in anyone's mind that Obama is a Muslim?

[Gewehr98]

Is this why there were only 12 dead and 31 wounded?  12 with the .357 and 31 with the 5.7?  Morbid to speculate at right now, I know... but the 5.7 doesn't have a lot of wound lethality history behind it and it is a mere .22 caliber just at higher speed.

Think along the lines of the .22 Hornet or .22 K-Hornet.

[Hawkmoon]

I doubt it. I figure he emptied both of them as fast as he could (dual wielding?), discarded the revolver, and reloaded the Five-Seven a few times before he was put down (I think they come with 3 mags as a default). Operating a speedloader under stress takes a goodly amount of practice for the non-Miculeks among us.

Reports are that he still had a lot of loaded magazines when he was taken down. My guess is he used the FiveSeven only, and was keeping the .357 for his own suicide shot(s) if he managed to finish off the FiveSeven ammo before someone else ended his little party. His actions speak very loudly that he was not planning to survive the incident. Whether he was looking for a suicide by cop or if the game plan was to off himself at the end -- at this moment is pure speculation.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

I believe reports indicate that only the FiveSeven was used.

Might be the case. ABC and others have mentioned "shooter with two handguns" but they also mentioned "three shooters" when the news first broke. This WSJ piece has more detail than anything I've seen thus far:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125750297355533413.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories

[Jamisjockey]

And in still other news, the President, Janet Napolitano and some dude from the Pentagon are all asking us not to assume that Hasan's religion might have been at all responsible for the attack.

This would be the same President who didn't hesitate a nanosecond to accuse a Cambridge, MA, cop of being a racist because he investigated a report of a possible burglary. Is there ANY lingering doubt in anyone's mind that Obama is a Muslim?

Surely you jest?

What he is, is a PC leftist/socialist.  Much scarier. 

[Perd Hapley]

Surely you jest?

What he is, is a PC leftist/socialist.  Much scarier. 

Exactly.

Leftists like Obama are more worried about anti-Muslim backlash trying to appear considerate and tolerant, than about dealing with what happened at Fort Hood. 

Plus, my standard response to the "Is he a Muslim?" issue.  I will not insult Christians or Muslims by putting Obama in either camp.