Author Topic: The Pot Place?  (Read 51074 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #175 on: November 18, 2009, 04:58:52 AM »
In terms of following the law as the framers intended it, that was the right conclusion.  Commerce had been held to include every stage in the process, and to include effects, for as long as there was a republic.


I would point out that previous jurisprudence was far, far less expansive.

[hai, a legal topic about which I actually read up]
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280plus

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #176 on: November 18, 2009, 07:25:05 AM »
Quote
jurisprudence
Whoa! Did you hear that word? (heads for dictionary)  =D
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De Selby

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #177 on: November 18, 2009, 10:31:02 AM »
I would point out that previous jurisprudence was far, far less expansive.

[hai, a legal topic about which I actually read up]

How would you explain Gibbons v. Ogden?  I don't think that's the case at all - previous jurisprudence was at least as expansive if not more so.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #178 on: November 18, 2009, 03:10:40 PM »
How would you explain Gibbons v. Ogden?  I don't think that's the case at all - previous jurisprudence was at least as expansive if not more so.

Dormant clause.
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280plus

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #179 on: November 18, 2009, 03:19:13 PM »
Is that like Santa Clause when it's not Christmas?  ???

 :P
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dm1333

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #180 on: November 18, 2009, 09:03:43 PM »
You guys convinced me!  If you legalize it nobody will want to grow it illegally in the woods, just like what happened after Prohibition was repealed!  Here is the proof!

http://www.blueridgeinstitute.org/moonshine/index.html

 [popcorn]

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #181 on: November 18, 2009, 09:07:05 PM »
You guys convinced me!  If you legalize it nobody will want to grow it illegally in the woods, just like what happened after Prohibition was repealed!  Here is the proof!

http://www.blueridgeinstitute.org/moonshine/index.html

 [popcorn]

A still out in the woods can easily be made in a way that doesn't damage the environment.

You completely missed the boat on what was trying to be explained.
Look, tiny text!

dm1333

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #182 on: November 18, 2009, 09:34:48 PM »
Quote
A still out in the woods can easily be made in a way that doesn't damage the environment.

You completely missed the boat on what was trying to be explained.

Lucky for you I prefer these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_hook

 [popcorn]

Matthew Carberry

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #183 on: November 18, 2009, 09:58:22 PM »
The fact that there are still moonshiners is irrelevent, of course there will be a statistical few who produce for their own or friend's consumption (just as they do now). 

We don't have to care about that because, and this is the point, what they are doing non-commercially won't be illegal and the current large scale trafficking-related crime, which we do care about, won't exist in any significant form any longer.

The guy with a couple plants in the back room is irrelevent now and would remain so, only if they actively violate the rights of others (sell illegally, DUI, supply to minor, etc.) will we have to become concerned.
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dm1333

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #184 on: November 18, 2009, 10:35:19 PM »
Quote
The fact that there are still moonshiners is irrelevent,

The fact that there are still moonshiners is very relevant.  You just don't want to admit that it blows a hole in a part of your argument.

Quote
We don't have to care about that because, and this is the point, what they are doing non-commercially won't be illegal and the current large scale trafficking-related crime, which we do care about, won't exist in any significant form any longer.

Aaaaahhh, but isn't what these moonshiners are doing right now illegal?  Aren't they avoiding the very same taxes that Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and all those other guys are paying?  Are you suggesting that if MJ is made legal that states or the feds aren't going to want to tax what is being grown and sold commercially?

Perd Hapley

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #185 on: November 18, 2009, 10:39:26 PM »
If I'm free to sit on my lawn, I'm free to sit on my lawn drinking water or drinking beer or thinking about dusky skinned native maidens or smoking reefer or injecting speedballs in between my toes.

It is only at the point that my activities intersect negatively with the rights of others that I should interact with the law at all.

So, maybe I can't drop trow and act out those dusky visions(due to the fact that the neighbors might be unwillingly forced to watch), or stumble into the road and interfere with traffic but that's about it.

State or Federal, if what I do doesn't actively infringe on the rights of others (whose rights are minimal inasmuch I am on my property) there should be NO law.


You had me at "dusky native maidens." 
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De Selby

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #186 on: November 19, 2009, 01:51:26 AM »
Dormant clause.

Yes, but its discussion of what's included in "commerce" is relevant for the purposes of defining the commerce clause power.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RaspberrySurprise

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #187 on: November 19, 2009, 02:27:30 AM »

Aaaaahhh, but isn't what these moonshiners are doing right now illegal?  Aren't they avoiding the very same taxes that Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and all those other guys are paying?  Are you suggesting that if MJ is made legal that states or the feds aren't going to want to tax what is being grown and sold commercially?

I think the phrase "drop in the bucket" fits well to describe the amount the revenue the fed is losing to moonshiners. Some may only be stilling for personal consumption as well.

There are always going to be tax dodgers, it's just the nature of the beast. Make the taxes high enough and youll get even more tax dodgers.
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KD5NRH

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #188 on: November 19, 2009, 02:45:36 AM »
You guys convinced me!  If you legalize it nobody will want to grow it illegally in the woods, just like what happened after Prohibition was repealed!  Here is the proof!

http://www.blueridgeinstitute.org/moonshine/index.html

Personal production of distilled spirits is still illegal in many areas, and even where it's not, dealing with the taxes is a pain.  Homebrewing, OTOH, is done in clubs by such unsavory types as college professors, city officials, and law enforcement officers.

For that matter, look at personal tobacco growing: it's legal, and my 30 (probably 60-120 next spring) plants are growing in plain sight in my backyard.  I don't have to hide it in a national forest or shoot any potential undercover cop that gets too close to the fence, and I don't have to mug anybody to get it, either.  I do have a camera back there to discourage any kids from deciding that my yard is the new no-ID smoke shop, but then again, uncured tobacco is its own punishment :)


Matthew Carberry

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #189 on: November 19, 2009, 03:09:24 AM »
The fact that there are still moonshiners is very relevant.  You just don't want to admit that it blows a hole in a part of your argument.

Aaaaahhh, but isn't what these moonshiners are doing right now illegal?  Aren't they avoiding the very same taxes that Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and all those other guys are paying?  Are you suggesting that if MJ is made legal that states or the feds aren't going to want to tax what is being grown and sold commercially?

No, it doesn't "blow a hole in my argument".  As said more than once, the problem in this country is the criminal activity associated with large-scale trafficking.  Decriminalizing will eliminate that and most of the associated law enforcement, court and prison costs.  The bonus is the ability to tax and regulate newly legal commercial outfits.

A few (proportionately) stills, or backyard grows, to supply personal use (including friends and families) are irrelevent to the problem of those criminal activities inseparable from the large scale trafficking of illegal substances

The people who do it for personal use, who don't sell it commercially, won't have to hide it.  It will therefore be cost effective for them to do so in a clean and safe manner.  There is ample proof of that in decades of experience in Alaska.
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Strings

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #190 on: November 19, 2009, 05:09:24 AM »
>Personal production of distilled spirits is still illegal in many areas, and even where it's not, dealing with the taxes is a pain<

Try "not legal without government license". Period, full stop.

Brewing beer or wine for personal consumption, fine. Going to distill things? Verboten without approval, even for a science project.

Is ATF gonna come swooping in if G98 decides to distill a bit of his brew? Probably not, same as DEA isn't likely to come swooping in if Carebear has a plant or two growing in his (shielded from public view) window. In either case though, the consequences that will hit if LE DOES find out can be drastically out of proportion to harm caused...
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roo_ster

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #191 on: November 19, 2009, 08:00:46 AM »
In either case though, the consequences that will hit if LE DOES find out can be drastically out of proportion to harm caused...

That's what YOU think!

In reality-land, those plants and distilled spirits would combine, Wonder-Twin-like, to create a Gojira-like monster that will ravage the lives of all those opposed to legalization of ingestible consciousness-altering substances.

Besides, the mere existence of those plants growing in CB's window weighs heavily on the minds of HTG and dm1333 becasue, somehow, even if they don't join into a Gojira-like monster, the possibility exists.

I think I've proved my point.  Don't legalize drugs: Think of the children Gojira.
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dm1333

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #192 on: November 19, 2009, 08:52:41 AM »
Quote
Besides, the mere existence of those plants growing in CB's window weighs heavily on the minds of HTG and dm1333 becasue, somehow, even if they don't join into a Gojira-like monster, the possibility exists.

Actually this whole issue doesn't weigh heavily on my mind at all.  The constant exposure has made me numb to the whole drug culture here and things that would have shocked me before 2003 don't even phase me any more. 

I have a question that some of the pro legalization people might be able to answer.  How many countries have completely legalized pot?  How many have decriminalized it? 

Some of you might want to re read that thread on bootlegging.  I would say that 500 tons of sugar is probably a bit more than somebody needs for personal consumption.  That figure is down from around 2500 tons per year in the 1980s.  Again, do you really think home brewers are buying all that sugar and stockpiling booze in their basement?  Why is it that anywhere from 50 t0 60 years after Prohibition was repealed are there still moonshiners?  According to the article it is because the moonshine is about 1/2 the cost of legally distilled booze. 

I find it hard to believe that large scale growers are going to be forced out of business by commercial competition if they can offer their product at a cheaper rate.  I also find it hard to believe that some people here think that groups like the Mexican Mafia or any other cartel growing dope here in the US is going to give up that income without a fight.   It was also pretty ironic that a thread about moonshiners still being in business got posted on APS while this thread was still active but I guess some of you didn't see the humor in that.

280plus

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #193 on: November 19, 2009, 09:35:16 AM »
Quote
Why is it that anywhere from 50 t0 60 years after Prohibition was repealed are there still moonshiners?
There's still money to be made doing it. Especially by those in depressed areas where jobs are far and few between. You need a little cash? With a little knowledge and the motivation you can get you some. The reason it's such a small percentage is pretty much the same as the reason most of us get our food from the grocery store. It's easier. You do see little farm stands pop up every spring though, don't you? Same thing basically. Small operators trying to make a little extra cash, except they don't have to worry about the revenoors...
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Firethorn

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #194 on: November 19, 2009, 10:41:48 AM »
You guys convinced me!  If you legalize it nobody will want to grow it illegally in the woods, just like what happened after Prohibition was repealed!  Here is the proof!

As others have noted, we don't have to eliminate 100% of illegal growing/manufacture to render it effectively irrelevent on a national scale.  We can STILL send law enforcement out to bust anybody doing something illegal, especially if they get large enough to be noticed.  Being able to get large enough for real economy of scale is one of the benefits of being legal, after all.

For the vast majority of people, legal liquer is sufficiently easier, safer, and higher quality that moonshine is a limited market.  The vast majority of alcohol produced is legal.  Tobacco smuggling is mostly in the form of tax evasion tricks, shipping it from low tax areas to high tax areas.

The correct method for controlling illegal producers of a legal substance is a combination of law enforcement and keeping the taxes and fees low enough that it's actually more economical to be legal.

Take heroin.  Using modern commercial production practices, pure medical grade heroin can be produced at around the same cost as aspirin.  You have the advantage of being able to use large, efficient machines for the processing.  Pure chemicals bought cheaply in bulk rather than using makeshift impure chemicals in the form of consumer products.  Professionally balanced chemical reactions, etc...  You then dilute it(if necesssary) with medically safe materials, package it up in standard medical packaging, mark it with contents/purity/date/lot number/etc... and send it to the drug store to be sold.  

You're a heroin addict.  Which are you going to buy by preference:  The stuff certified by the FDA to be the safest heroin on the market of X strength, or the stuff being sold in a baggie by some dude on the street that isn't really sure whether his stuff is 10% dope or 90% dope?

Quote
Some of you might want to re read that thread on bootlegging.  I would say that 500 tons of sugar is probably a bit more than somebody needs for personal consumption.  That figure is down from around 2500 tons per year in the 1980s.  Again, do you really think home brewers are buying all that sugar and stockpiling booze in their basement?  Why is it that anywhere from 50 t0 60 years after Prohibition was repealed are there still moonshiners?  According to the article it is because the moonshine is about 1/2 the cost of legally distilled booze. 

Well, for one, the 500 tons is for a substantial number of people in the county, and the country's population has grown since the 1980s.  1/5th the production would indeed be what I'd consider a 'steep decline'.

The company listed, while called the 'primary supplier' of the area's moonshiners, probably doesn't just deal with moonshiners - it could also service places like bakeries that can use a lot of sugar legally.  So who knows how much of the 500 tons was used for legal purposes?  How much was used for minorly illegal purposes(production of liquer for personal/family consumption)?  How much was produced to be sold?

Quote
I find it hard to believe that large scale growers are going to be forced out of business by commercial competition if they can offer their product at a cheaper rate.  I also find it hard to believe that some people here think that groups like the Mexican Mafia or any other cartel growing dope here in the US is going to give up that income without a fight.   It was also pretty ironic that a thread about moonshiners still being in business got posted on APS while this thread was still active but I guess some of you didn't see the humor in that.

1.  We're saying they can't offer it as safe and easy to get as the store bought stuff while still keeping it cheaper, at least as long as they don't go crazy with the taxes.
2.  Who are they going to fight?  The local drug store, supermarket?  Are they blowing up the semi-legal 'medical dispensories'?  Are they going to attempt to burn down the farmer who plants a couple hundred acres of the stuff?
3.  Evidence is that moonshining is dying, that there really isn't the violence involved in it anymore, is this a bad thing?

cordex

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #195 on: November 19, 2009, 10:53:04 AM »
Indeed. This means that it is within the state's responsibilities for prohibition or permission.

I will suggest again: argue a point you can win, not one you will not.
The Constitutional point is no more winnable with most advocates of drug prohibition than is the "legal pot will make the world better" argument.  The vast majority of drug prohibitionists don't give a flying flip about the nuances of Constitutional law.  They merely pull the appeal to the masses routine and the "drug legalization = anarchy" arguments which clearly overrule any silly Constitutional intents.  This is much the same way as most gun control advocates cavalierly dismiss inconvenient Constitutional appeals.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #196 on: November 19, 2009, 04:18:15 PM »
we really need that beating a dead horse smilie...

*sigh*
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KD5NRH

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #197 on: November 19, 2009, 05:01:43 PM »
>Personal production of distilled spirits is still illegal in many areas, and even where it's not, dealing with the taxes is a pain<

Try "not legal without government license". Period, full stop.

But, like NFA firearms, due to state, county or city regulations, there are places where you can't get that license, regardless of whether you jump through the Federal hoops.  Anywhere else, the license, insurance, and reporting requirements just aren't even remotely practical for personal use.


Firethorn

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #198 on: November 19, 2009, 06:09:07 PM »
But, like NFA firearms, due to state, county or city regulations, there are places where you can't get that license, regardless of whether you jump through the Federal hoops.  Anywhere else, the license, insurance, and reporting requirements just aren't even remotely practical for personal use.

From what I've heard on public radio, it seems to possibly be a state issue; they were talking about adjusting state law so that farmers could distill and sell alcohol in limited quantities without expensive licenses.

North Dakota isn't really big on grapes for wine or even the stuff for beer.  Corn for liquer, though...

mellestad

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Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #199 on: November 19, 2009, 07:50:42 PM »
The fact that there are still moonshiners is very relevant.  You just don't want to admit that it blows a hole in a part of your argument.

Aaaaahhh, but isn't what these moonshiners are doing right now illegal?  Aren't they avoiding the very same taxes that Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and all those other guys are paying?  Are you suggesting that if MJ is made legal that states or the feds aren't going to want to tax what is being grown and sold commercially?

If decriminalizing a behavior makes 99% of the problem go away I don't think you can rationally lobby to scrub the whole thing because of the remaining 1%.

Real politics and law making is not about doing what is perfect, it is about doing what is optimal given the circumstances.  Criminalizing pot has failed.  Harsher sentancing has failed.  Public education about the dangers of drug use has failed.  Now we need a new solution, even if it isn't perfect.