Author Topic: The Pot Place?  (Read 51039 times)

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2009, 06:50:41 AM »
It can be eaten although the "effects" are different than if it had been smoked. The best way I've heard it described is smoking gives you a "head" high while eating it gives you a "body" high. I packed a few gelcaps with some for my dad to ingest when he was going through chemo and he actually developed an appetite and could eat. Sadly though, the stigma that he associated with it pretty much stopped him from continuing and, well, he didn't last a whole lot longer. Cancer requires strength to fight and the drugs take away your ability to eat which naturally saps your strength. Do I attribute his loss directly to his refusal to use MJ during treatment? No, not really, but I do believe he would have had a better chance.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

dm1333

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,875
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2009, 10:04:03 AM »
Balog said:

Quote
dm1333: I've yet to hear you present an argument for what you think banning it (you know, even more than it currently is) will accomplish.
 

Well, what exactly do you mean?  Because it isn't banned where I live, at all.  And I've already talked about the crime, trashing of the environment, fires, etc.  The standards here are so loose with respect to getting a card or even just a note from your doctor (remember that the cards are voluntary) and the amount of dope you can have that I view the system here as a front for the sale of pot.  This article is a great example of what I am talking about.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-18-california-marijuana_N.htm?imw=Y

Quote
An eighth-ounce of organic marijuana buds for treating his seasonal allergies? Check. An eighth of a different pot strain for insomnia? Check. THC-infused lozenges and tea bags? Check and check, with a free herb-laced cookie thrown in as a thank-you gift.

You guys are talking about people with cancer using pot to relieve their pain.  California has gone way past that!  Allergies bugging you?  Have some pot!  Sore throat?  Have some pot!  The joke around here with non pot smokers is that all you have to do to get a card is tell your doctor that your pysche is bruised.  I think the DA, Meredith Lintott, said it best in the same article.

Quote
"For those of us who are on the front lines, it's not about pot is bad in itself or drugs are bad," said Meredith Lintott, district attorney in Mendocino County, one of the country's top marijuana-producing regions.

"It's about the negative consequences on children. It's about the negative consequences on the environment."

I know the usual snarky comments like "Gun control, it's for the children!" are going to follow but if you don't live in an area like this you wouldn't understand just how right the DA got that one.  Kids get trashed by this culture and so do the woods. 

And a few other gems found in the article.

Quote
Based on the quantity of marijuana authorities seized last year, the crop was worth an estimated $17 billion or more, dwarfing any other sector of the state's agricultural economy.

Quote
The plant's prominence does not come without costs, say some critics. Marijuana plantations in remote forests cause severe environmental damage. Indoor grow houses in some towns put rentals beyond the reach of students and young families. Rural counties with declining economies cannot attract new businesses because the available work force is caught up in the pot industry. Authorities link the drug to violent crime in otherwise quiet small towns.

Quote
On a property flanked by vineyards, Mendocino County farmer Jim Hill grows marijuana for up to 20 patients, including himself and his wife. He believes passionately in marijuana's purported ability to treat the symptoms of diseases ranging from cancer to Alzheimer's; he says his wife suffers from a serotonin imbalance, and he uses the drug to treat digestive problems and intestinal cramping.

This guy seems to be the most honest of all the advocates I have met.

Quote
Justin Hartfield, a 25-year-old Web designer and business student, founded WeedMaps.com, where pot clubs and doctors who write medi-pot recommendations list their services and users post reviews. Hartfield says the year-old site brought in $20,000 this month, an amount he expects to double in August.

Hartfield exhibited at THC Expo, a two-day trade show at the Los Angeles Convention Center that attracted an estimated 35,000 attendees in June. There was hydroponic gardening equipment and bong vendors and bikini-clad models wearing leis made of fake marijuana leaves.

Like just about everyone else connected to the cannabis trade, Hartfield has a letter from a doctor that entitles him to buy medical marijuana from a dispensary. But he sees no point in pretending he is treating anything more than his taste for smoking weed.

"It is a joke. It's a legal way for me to get what I used to get on the street," he said.

He recalls telling the doctor who provided the referral that he suffered from insomnia and anxiety, though neither was true. As he signed the paperwork, the doctor "congratulated me like I was getting






MechAg94 wrote:

Quote
dm1333, you also wrote that the hazmat team in the area used to deal with meth labs as well when you lived there before.  I don't understand how you attribute the crime solely to marijuana (the legal and/or illegal portions of the trade) if there's also a local meth industry.
 


I don't attribute the crime soley to pot.  Both crystal meth and pot are manufactured and sold side by side in this county.  It's just that the pot industry is so much larger in this case.  The thing that surprised me most was hearing a member of that hazmat team state that he thought grows were doing more damage to the environment than meth labs.  This is what I found by search for marijuana as a cash crop in Mendocino County.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=marijuana+as+a+cash+crop+mendocino+county&ei=utf-8&fr=b1ie7

The figure I keep hearing tossed about is that two thirds of the economy here is based on pot. 

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2009, 10:49:41 AM »
The joke around here with non pot smokers is that all you have to do to get a card is tell your doctor that your pysche is bruised.

So?  I have a note from a doctor who's probably not even alive anymore that I used to get a driver's license, and I can use that license to buy beer.  There's a combination that has wrecked a lot more lives than pot ever will, and I only had to be born to get that note.


Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2009, 11:29:38 AM »
dm1333: you're missing my point. Alcohol destroys thousands of lives every year. When it was banned, it destroyed even more lives. So tell me again what good the War on (some) Drugs is doing for us, as a country?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2009, 11:36:00 AM »
Well, what exactly do you mean?  Because it isn't banned where I live, at all.  And I've already talked about the crime, trashing of the environment, fires, etc.  The standards here are so loose with respect to getting a card or even just a note from your doctor (remember that the cards are voluntary) and the amount of dope you can have that I view the system here as a front for the sale of pot.  This article is a great example of what I am talking about.

On the other hand, I view those effects as a side effect of the kinda-sorta prohibition still around, the continued threat of Federal involvement even if they don't have to worry about the state, insane regulations still in place, etc...

Consider the whole 8 ounce rule.  Sure, it's a lot for an individual.  But it's nothing for a commercial organization, and the commercial organization still has to be worried about being burned by federal law, state officials who disagree with state policy(remember, there's still a lot of potential illegalities when considering a commercial grow op), etc...

Look at Alchohol and Tobacco.  Both are products that could be produced at home, but the vast majority of people don't, for the same reason they don't have vegetable gardens in their lawn.

When considering any legalization scheme, my goal is to supress organized crime.  That means legalizing the back end, the supply system.  That means legalizing an outright pot farm with acres of pot.

Once you have farms with acres of it, you have the ability to put them under the same agriculture rules as other crops.  Because it's legal, they don't have to throw away their equipment.  In order to enjoy the benefits of being legal, they can't litter or pollute any more than other farms.  They have to operate cleanly.  With legality, they also have to operate efficiently - dumping supplies makes no sense in that regard.

Consider meth production.  Basement production uses cheap, essentially disposable equipment.  A legal professional production that doesn't have to worry about the cops confiscating their equipment will invest in equipment that costs 1000x as much that will produce the drug 100x purer for 1/10th the cost.

Quote
"It is a joke. It's a legal way for me to get what I used to get on the street," he said.

For those of us who lean libertarian, I'd have to ask:  What's wrong with him not getting his drugs from street dealers?  I'd much rather have him NOT be supporting the drug gangs, the pushers, the people growing the stuff illegally on federal park land and elsewhere.

The current pot places don't have the cleanest methods for obtaining their stuff either; but that's an artifact of the continued illegality of various parts of the business even if individual possession is effectively 'legal'.

Where would you rather get your pot from:  a MI-13 gang or some farmer in North Dakota?

I agree with Balog.  I'm all for legalization and regulation because I believe that, after examination of various aspects of it, that legalization would result in less harm than keeping it illegal.  It's as simple as that.  It's along the lines of 'the more tightly you clench your fist, the more slips through'.  The current prohibitions actually means the government has less control over recreational drugs than they would if it was legal and regulated.  Kids in High School here rate weed as easier to get than alcohol or tobacco.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2009, 01:57:03 PM »
Personally I see it as the difference between victimless crime and crimes that involve victims. I think we waste a LOT of time and money and manpower on victimless crime such as drugs, gambling and prostitution, which are basically the result of one segment of society forcing their views and morals on another segment of society. I've long been an advocate of eliminatng the criminality of victimless crime in favor of properly addressing REAL crime like roberry, assault, murder, rape, child abuse etc etc. Legalize victimless crime, ALL OF IT, tax it appropriately and put the freed up time and money PLUS the new found money toward prevention and treatment / rehabilitation. There will always be a certain number of people who will try to circumvent the system and avoid paying the taxes but as pointed out in the case of tobacco and alcohol, the vast majority of the population just goes about its business and pays the taxes. When they re-legalized alcohol, what happened? All the bootleggers went legit and suddenly the black market and all its pitfalls virtually dried up. What are the bootleggers doing now? running drugs, prostitution rings and gambling rings. Why? Because as soon as you criminalize anything that people want the criminal element steps up and fills the void. I believe legalization of these vices will result in the downfall of a large portion of the gang activity we are seeing EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately, common sense does not seem able to prevail. I think this whole "medicinal MJ" thing simply skirts the issue and does nothing at all to solve the problem. It's little more than a compromise, and a poor one at that.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

PTK

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,318
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2009, 02:01:42 PM »
Personally I see it as the difference between victimless crime and crimes that involve victims. I think we waste a LOT of time and money and manpower on victimless crime such as drugs, gambling and prostitution, which are basically the result of one segment of society forcing their views and morals on another segment of society. I've long been an advocate of eliminatng the criminality of victimless crime in favor of properly addressing REAL crime like roberry, assault, murder, rape, child abuse etc etc. Legalize victimless crime, ALL OF IT, tax it appropriately and put the freed up time and money PLUS the new found money toward prevention and treatment / rehabilitation. There will always be a certain number of people who will try to circumvent the system and avoid paying the taxes but as pointed out in the case of tobacco and alcohol, the vast majority of the population just goes about its business and pays the taxes. When they re-legalized alcohol, what happened? All the bootleggers went legit and suddenly the black market and all its pitfalls virtually dried up. What are the bootleggers doing now? running drugs, prostitution rings and gambling rings. Why? Because as soon as you criminalize anything that people want the criminal element steps up and fills the void. I believe legalization of these vices will result in the downfall of a large portion of the gang activity we are seeing EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately, common sense does not seem able to prevail. I think this whole "medicinal MJ" thing simply skirts the issue and does nothing at all to solve the problem. It's little more than a compromise, and a poor one at that.

Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

And that's from someone who worked closely with narcotics officers in one state and is now a medical MJ user.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2009, 02:31:32 PM »
Thanks, I was climbing into the asbestos suit just now...  :laugh:

Avoid cliches like the plague!

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2009, 04:33:24 PM »
meth and pot side by side?  that would be most unique.  tend to attract a different client.   or at least it did back when i was still using
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2009, 06:03:45 PM »
Piling on.

If your grow operation is illegal, there is no incentive to run it cleanly, a clean one will get busted the same as a messy or unsafe one.  However, if it is legal to operate within standards, then the standards are enforceable because you will make money only when allowed to operate.

We don't see people going blind today from drinking legally produced booze, nor can legal outfits pollute at will without repercussions.  Legal producers, wholesalers and the entire marketing chain of any legal, taxable product (say alcohol, tobacco and firearms) can be held responsible for failures to follow regulations on distribution and the retailers can and are regulated at multiple levels as well.  They can also be "nudged" by public relations concerns, as all the above industries are, to contribute above and beyond the required taxation to their communities via sponsorship and charitible outreach.

There will always be abusers and scofflaws, but there'd be a hell of a lot more resources available to deal with those comparative few if everyone who merely and responsibly used a particular substance/activity wasn't lumped in with them.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2009, 06:19:58 PM »
i think carebear has said part of what i want to say better, but...

sounds like in regards to the hazards and problems caused by the growers are more adaquetly addressed by things like zoning laws, housing codes and laws concerning environmentel protection. i understand legel producers of similar products follow such laws, and thus don't have the same issues, which is added by the fact that they are legel producers, not a pothead with a wish to be self suficiant, make a little cash and the ability to take atvantage of decriminalization.

second, in regards to kids of potheads. i have known a lot. seriously, my mother ran with a pretty hippie crowd for a time. Now, for the most part these folks are not people i would want to be friends with, almost all are a bunch of liberal hippy dippy obnoxious airy fairy folk without much substance. However, they're kids where always very well loved and the parents seemed to take much more pleasure and intrest in they're childrens lives then half of the straight edge parents.

"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #86 on: November 16, 2009, 06:33:06 PM »
The "War on Drugs" has created a demonstrably false duality to drug use.  You are either an upright non-user or you are an addict inevitably headed toward the use of more dangerous drugs.  There's no recognition of the fact that casual use, or even clinically defined "addiction", can plateau and not interfere with normal life in any societally (or personally for that matter) harmful way.

There have always been perfectly functional users of drugs, including alcohol, pot and coke (I don't know any heroin users), who don't drive intoxicated, who do hold down decent jobs, pay their taxes, care for their children and in general are good citizens.

This reality is why the rabid prohibitionist's overly simplistic demonization and intrusive moralizing tripe has no credibility for most Americans on the issue. 
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #87 on: November 16, 2009, 07:15:22 PM »
A medical marijuana bar?  Ha! 

Are they gonna put a morphine bar in next door?

Alcohol destroys thousands of lives every year. When it was banned, it destroyed even more lives.
I would like to see some evidence of this. 

Common sense tells us that when the disincentives against using a harmful substances are weaker, more people will use that substance, and more harm will result.  The stats I've seen bear this out, with legal substances causing orders of magnitude more harm (both for users and non-users) than all of the illegal substances combined.  I admit, I haven't looked at the numbers lately, so maybe this has changed.

Prohibition certainly had some spectacular moments, but has anyone actually tabulated the affects vs. what we have today?  For instance, I can't imagine that the gang violence in the 1930's was anywhere near as destructive as drunk driving is today.  It's just that shootouts with Thompsons grab the imagination so much better.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2009, 07:32:35 PM »

There have always been perfectly functional users of drugs, including alcohol, pot and coke (I don't know any heroin users), who don't drive intoxicated, who do hold down decent jobs, pay their taxes, care for their children and in general are good citizens.

And yet the pro-drug crowd makes the exact same false argument as you're criticizing here, only they do it in reverse. 

Drug use always harms others.  Drug use never harms others.  Both are the same basic argument, and both are utterly false. 

Neither side of this debate ever tires of criticizing the other for making this mistake.  Neither side ever realizes they're equally deserving of that criticism.

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2009, 07:36:27 PM »
Common sense tells us that when the disincentives against using a harmful substances are weaker, more people will use that substance, and more harm will result.  The stats I've seen bear this out, with legal substances causing orders of magnitude more harm (both for users and non-users) than all of the illegal substances combined.  I admit, I haven't looked at the numbers lately, so maybe this has changed.

The problem with your common sense is that you're assuming a simple reduction in the market under illegality.  During prohibition, you actually saw drinking INCREASE.  Sources will have to wait until I get home.

You also saw a number of market distortions:
1.  Availability - the most popular drinks before prohibition?  Wine and Beer.  During?  Hard liquers - it gets easier to smuggle a given number of doses of alcohol  the purer the stuff is.  1 Barrel of Rum = 5 barrels of beer.  After prohibition?  Wine and beer retook their places.
2.  Safety - Before prohibition, legal distilleries had to follow safety regulation.  During, they were illegal, no real incentive to 'do it right', you also got a lot of back woods types who didn't know how - thus you got a sharp spike of methanol, lead(from solder joints), and other contamination poisoning incidents.  Again, this dropped back to essentially nothing with the end of prohibition.  Consistancy often sharply varied as well - that's how you get a lot of heroin/cocaine overdoses - they're used to the impure stuff, get some higher purity stuff, and *bam* - OD.
3.  Crime - Before prohibtion, alcohol(and other drug) manufacturing was a legal business.  Any disputes could be 'fought out' in the courts.  There were rules, that if not followed, could lose them their legal status - and it was effectively impossible to make money if illegal.  When there's huge profits to be made in an illegal market, no courts or police to turn to, 'Enforcement' devolved to useage of fights, and you get executions, gang wars, etc...

Quote
Prohibition certainly had some spectacular moments, but has anyone actually tabulated the affects vs. what we have today?  For instance, I can't imagine that the gang violence in the 1930's was anywhere near as destructive as drunk driving is today.  It's just that shootouts with Thompsons grab the imagination so much better.

Drunk driving certainly wasn't non-existant during prohibition(link will have to wait for home).  

Basically, we have to make a value judgement.  Harm cannot be avoided, so how do we minimize it?  Personally, I think that dinging people for stuff that actually hurts others, while defunding the gangs is the best option.  If their territories don't make money, there's no need to fight over them.  If you make it so they can't make enough money to be 'cool', there's limits to the other trouble they can get into.  Shop-lifting, protection schemes, slavery, all are fairly marginal business ventures - think of a diversified business.  Sure, it can survive without one or two of it's income streams, but as it's forced to subsist on smaller and smaller income streams, it's going to be forced to contract.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2009, 07:56:26 PM »
Agreed that alcohol caused problems during prohibition just as it does now.  But that was never the question.

The question is, did prohibition cause more problems back then than legalization causes now?  

I don't know the numbers viz legal today vs illegal back then.  The pro-drug crowd loves to trumpet the gang violence and crime of the 1920's as evidence that prohibition was worse back then than what we have today.  I'm skeptical.  We romanticize the tommy gun shootouts in the 20's much the same way we romanticize the violence of the wild west, both are overblown.  The people themselves no doubt glamorized their speakeasies in the roaring 20's in ways that we wouldn't today, and in ways that probably had more to do with the roaringness and wealth and the glamor than they did with the alcohol.

I do know the numbers of legal today vs illegal today, and the legalized substances account for far more harm than the illegal ones could ever dream of, by virtue of the fact that the legal substances are used far, far more often than the illegal substances.  I don't see any reason to doubt that usage, and harm deriving from usage, would increase if sanctions were lessened.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 12:44:50 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #91 on: November 16, 2009, 08:00:54 PM »
i can remember being quite annoyed when during the late 80's in dc it was sometimes quite hard/dangerous to get pot for a whiteboy in dc but i could get any amount of cocaine  (see firethorn #1)


when the feds shut down the european smack trade we got mexican mud  smack so pure it kied a bunch of fok before the junkies figured it out   (see firethorn #2)


prohibition made the mob  and gave them the keys to our courts and egisatures (cash)   the war on drugs gave us the cartes  when a group of foreign thugs can put a hit on a four star admira and the goveror of florida  the almighty usa was emasculated   (see firethorn #3)

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #92 on: November 16, 2009, 08:05:01 PM »
At the end of Prohibition, some supporters openly admitted its failure. A quote from a letter, written in 1932 by wealthy industrialist John D. Rockefeller, Jr., states:

    When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before.[14]


i'm not THAT old but my grandfather told me "that before prohibition no moraal woman ever drank in public"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #93 on: November 16, 2009, 08:09:39 PM »
Some quick research:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w3675
Quote
We estimate the consumption of alcohol during Prohibition using mortality, mental health and crime statistics. We find that alcohol consumption fell sharply at the beginning of Prohibition, to approximately 30 percent of its pre-Prohibition level. During the next several years, however, alcohol consumption increased sharply, to about 60-70 percent of its pre-prohibition level. The level of consumption was virtually the same immediately after Prohibition as during the latter part of Prohibition, although consumption increased to approximately its pre-Prohibition level during the subsequent decade.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,500
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #94 on: November 16, 2009, 08:17:43 PM »
Drunk driving certainly wasn't non-existant during prohibition(link will have to wait for home).  



Was it less common and/or less harmful because of fewer cars per capita?  Or because speeds were lower?

"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #95 on: November 16, 2009, 08:41:41 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Balog on Today at 08:29:38 AM
Alcohol destroys thousands of lives every year. When it was banned, it destroyed even more lives.

I would like to see some evidence of this.  
Attend a few AA meetings, you'll get all you can stomach.

I remember one once, the speaker was telling us how he would wake up in jail all bloodied up or in an alley or the gutter having defecated in his pants. I said, "Uh, if all this nasty stuff was going on in your life did it ever occur to you that maybe you should stop drinking?" He didn't like that question.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

dm1333

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,875
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #96 on: November 16, 2009, 09:02:21 PM »
Quote
meth and pot side by side?  that would be most unique.  tend to attract a different client.   or at least it did back when i was still using

Usually it went along the lines of "Wanna buy some weed?  No?  How 'bout some meth?"  The worst example of selling both side by side was a car rolling down the street at about 5mph, with the passenger sitting on the door, whole upper body out of the window, holding up a bag of weed and a bag of meth and shouting out "Weed, meth, weed, meth" as they went down the street.

Quote
Piling on.

If your grow operation is illegal, there is no incentive to run it cleanly, a clean one will get busted the same as a messy or unsafe one.  However, if it is legal to operate within standards, then the standards are enforceable because you will make money only when allowed to operate.

We don't see people going blind today from drinking legally produced booze, nor can legal outfits pollute at will without repercussions.  Legal producers, wholesalers and the entire marketing chain of any legal, taxable product (say alcohol, tobacco and firearms) can be held responsible for failures to follow regulations on distribution and the retailers can and are regulated at multiple levels as well.  They can also be "nudged" by public relations concerns, as all the above industries are, to contribute above and beyond the required taxation to their communities via sponsorship and charitible outreach.

There will always be abusers and scofflaws, but there'd be a hell of a lot more resources available to deal with those comparative few if everyone who merely and responsibly used a particular substance/activity wasn't lumped in with them.

This argument sounds good but does anybody really think that the Mexican cartels that are growing pot in California are suddenly going to go straight, incorporate themselves and start paying taxes?  Or that the people selling their medical marijuana a pound at a time are going to have a fit of remorse and start paying taxes if pot is legalized?  I don't see any incentive for them to do so, or for buyers to buy weed that has been taxed, they're getting away with it now and will probably continue to fly along under the radar.  It is relatively easy to regulate the sale of alcohol because there just aren't that many stores selling it, if every person growing and selling illegal pot suddenly could do it legally I think the state would be overwhelmed.

To compare the alcohol/prohibition situation, where there was a legal, tax paying industry in place before the prohibition to this situation just doesn't seem to make sense because there was no legal pot industry before and there is no legal pot industry elsewhere in the world waiting to step in and start making a profit in this market.  There are only the scofflaws. 

There is plenty of talk about legalizing pot in this state to help with their budget woes.  That is laughable because a) the state will never be able to collect all the revenue it thinks it can; and b) California?  Really?  They've screwed up everything else in this state, what makes people think they'll be able to handle this?  Pretty soon the legal growers will be leaving for Nevada, Oregon and Idaho for the same reasons everybody else is! High taxes, high cost of living, too many restrictive laws, environmental pressures, etc.  Heyyyyyy, come to think of it, maybe this isssss a good way to kill of the pot industry!  Legalize it in California and subject it to all of the regulatory crap that every other legitimate business here has to deal with!  (in case you didn't get it, that was sarcasm)

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2009, 09:03:21 PM »
Attend a few AA meetings, you'll get all you can stomach.

I remember one once, the speaker was telling us how he would wake up in jail all bloodied up or in an alley or the gutter having defecated in his pants. I said, "Uh, if all this nasty stuff was going on in your life did it ever occur to you that maybe you should stop drinking?" He didn't like that question.
My question was whether banning alcohol destroyed even more lives.

dm1333

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,875
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2009, 09:12:58 PM »
280plus,

I don't think anybody was questioning whether or not alcohol destroys lives.  I think they wanted to see some proof that during Prohibition alcohol was actually destroying more lives per capita than before it was outlawed.

I'll admit that I can see the sense of cancer patients medical marijuana.  If pot improves somebodies appetite they just might have the strength to survive the treatment.  I just don't think the benefit of this outweighs the cost to society in general.  As far as growing and selling pot being a victimless crime?  I see plenty of victims here, starting with the trashing of public land right on down the line to houses being broken into because somebody thought there was a grow.  Plus it has an effect on kids brains just like alcohol does.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu936BQJLNHkBkNdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnZlZnRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=12h94gvg6/EXP=1258510202/**http%3a//www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu936BQJLNHkBmNdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDhrMzdqBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=12l0i47i4/EXP=1258510202/**http%3a//www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp%3farticlekey=81345

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: The Pot Place?
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2009, 01:14:39 AM »
i don't think one will find evidence that prohibition of alcohol destroyed more lives then legel alcohol.

i think we CAN find proof that prohibition didn't stop any of the social and health issues associated with its use, and i also bet we can find proof in a rise of orginized crime and blackmarkets due to alcohol being prohibited.

in fact we have that legacy still in our pop culture and the history books. The roaring twentys leave us with a legacy of the glamour of a drinking culture and the iconic image of a Gangster is based on the rum runners of the 20's and 30's.

my main arguement for legelizing pot is that it doesn't make any sense that pot is illigal when alcohol and tobbaco are. I do not promote the legalization of other drugs and i don't think you should be able to buy herion or crystal meth at the local drugstore.

and the reasons are simple. Pot is not as addictive as alcohol or tabbaco, and someone who is stoned is usually less disruptive to the world around them then someone who is drunk.

i can think of a few medical use for smoking ciggerettes (it has been proven that it can be a somewhat effective and cheap way to add with certain mental disorders and its an effective way to help control the symptoms of IBS). i can really think of no way that alcohol is useful in a medical contexts (althouth with this headcold, i doubt a shot of whiskey would hurt   :laugh: ) Pot, on the other hand, is a proven and effective way to control pain and nasuea assiociated with many serious medical problems.

i do not see the point in continuing persicution of those who smoke it and sell it for any reason, because it is no more detrimental to society then alcohol or tobacco. in fact, i would say its LESS detrimentel. Furthermore, if you only decriminalize it, you still haven't solved one of the huge problems of our society in regards to pot (and anything else illigal) which is the allure of doing something taboo (a social novelty that one could argue came about because of Prohibition)
which is why i say make it legel. put pot down the aisle from the booze and the ciggerettes and remove a good portion of that taboo, meanwhile, ensuring that the stuff for sale is healthy and safe for consumption AND go ahead and let the gov collect a tidy little sales tax off of it.

and no, this will not solve the issue of stoners who get in trouble anymore then end of prohibition ended the ability of a drunk to get in trouble.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds