Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)

[Gewehr98]

Yeah, I knew only part of the Harrier's ducted thrust was cool air.  The rear two nozzles are the hot end of the turbine core's exhaust, and the front two are bypass air from that big Rolls Royce Pegasus compressor stage, from what I could remember.  

The USAF had issues with Harriers visiting bases, no VTOL ops from asphalt taxiways.  They got all bubbly and gooey for the next plane that taxied through...   

[280plus]

I'm imagining a stuck Cessna right now. 

[Boomhauer]

Leatherneck, old joke amongst us crewdawgs.

Q: What makes an airplane fly?

A: Noise. If the noise stops... 

That big fan also keeps the pilot cool. Stop it and watch him sweat!

[Gewehr98]

Again, you think they would've learned from the Harrier's hot exhaust:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/06/hot-breathing-osprey-sparks-five-acre-fire/

[AZRedhawk44]

Again, you think they would've learned from the Harrier's hot exhaust:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/06/hot-breathing-osprey-sparks-five-acre-fire/

I like this comment:

Posted by: ibnsuleiman | 06/5/09 | 9:38 pm

Like hovercraft and autogyros, tilt wing/rotor aircraft are destined to be ideas that looked good at the time but end up with very limited practical applications, the compromises involved in trying to make them do two separate jobs result in an expensive vehicle with limited capability.
Now we find they can’t be flown into an area where the surface is flammable meaning one guy with a jerry can could potentially sabotage a landing site making them unsafe for hostile environments.
They are hardly new, this programme has been running since the mid 1980s and similar aircraft have been under development since the mid 1950s.

  Too funny.

Low tech circumvention of high tech transportation.

Allow me to posit this:

What enemy might we face in the next 10+ years that would be more vulnerable to an Osprey than a Blackhawk...that merits investing in retrofitting dozens of ships and/or the proposed Osprey fleet?  How are Osprey superior when utilized in police-action scenarios like the GWoT we're involved in right now, in comparison to a conventional rotary wing craft?

I'm not opposed to any aircraft... I think they're all cool.  Osprey sounds neat.  But how is it superior for inserting/extracting Marines from the field, and how well does the significant investment to solve the problems, reward us?

[Gewehr98]

Why Harriers don't overheat deck plating:

http://209.157.64.200/focus/news/2388318/replies?c=31

[280plus]

A-kaak A-kakk... got dust? 

[Angel Eyes]

The USAF had issues with Harriers visiting bases, no VTOL ops from asphalt taxiways.  They got all bubbly and gooey for the next plane that taxied through...   

USAF?  I thought it was the USMC that flew Harriers (along with the Brits, of course).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrier_jet

[Gewehr98]

The Osprey's major benefit is airspeed.

That reduces transit/deployment time, since it's not beset with the max speed limitations imposed upon conventional rotary-wing aircraft.

However, it does that at the expense of other aspects of the flight envelope, as Leatherneck alluded to.

I'd never even heard of "vortex ring state" until the Osprey racked up a few training accidents.  It's got to have one seriously heavy load on those rotors while in helicopter mode.  

[41magsnub]

USAF?  I thought it was the USMC that flew Harriers (along with the Brits, of course).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrier_jet

Correct, but there are a lot more Air Force bases than there are Marine bases.  It would not be totally uncommon for Marine aircraft to do a pit stop or cross training at an AF base.

[280plus]

The first jump jet pilot:

Roger T. "Race" Bannon is a special agent / bodyguard / pilot from Intelligence One. Governmental fears that Jonny could "fall into the wrong hands" resulted in the assignment of Bannon to guard and tutor him.[8] Race was born in Wilmette, Illinois, to John and Sarah Bannon.[9] He is stated to be an expert in judo, having a third-degree black belt as well as the ability to defeat noted experts and even sumo wrestlers. Race Bannon was voiced by Mike Road. The character's design was modeled on actor Jeff Chandler.[10]

[Leatherneck]

What enemy might we face in the next 10+ years that would be more vulnerable to an Osprey than a Blackhawk...that merits investing in retrofitting dozens of ships and/or the proposed Osprey fleet?  How are Osprey superior when utilized in police-action scenarios like the GWoT we're involved in right now, in comparison to a conventional rotary wing craft?

An enemy 500 miles away, for starters. A V-22 can carry 24 combat-equipped Marines 500 miles in two hours and return for more in the same time. The higher speed/range/payload capabilities of the tiltrotor are its main advantages. But as in all compromise aircraft designs, to get something, you give up something.

TC

[Gewehr98]

Jack,

One forgets that USAF bases don't exclude visiting Army, Navy, USMC, Coast Guard, NASA, State Department, NOAA, and other governmental aircraft from using the facilities.

On a given day, you could see all sorts of different aircraft from all branches on a USAF parking ramp.  We didn't discriminate.  

[280plus]

The EM club must be interesting on a Saturday night. 

I DO recall drinikng at the AFB on Guam a lot because it was nicer than ours. ;-)

Can't remember the name. Or maybe it was Naval Air. The CRS is kicking in again. 

[seeker_two]

Wonder if someone will make something to escort 'em Ospreys around.  You know, with guns and such.   

Why not mount guns on the Osprey?....worked for the Hueys....

And we rarely heavily mist the Space Shuttle with sea water.

....and yet we launch the things near an ocean.... 

[Matthew Carberry]

They have worked with gunpods and the like, from my limited reading the problem is weight and controlling the guns so they can't be fired into the rotors at any given angle, though i think that shouldn't be a huge technical issue.  Make 'em remote operated from a pilot headset and have a cutoff when the airframe is endangered.

[Leatherneck]

They've tried that Carebear, with mixed results. From the cabin point of view, which is where you would mount guns, in helo mode the nacelles are a huge blockage right outside and abeam. In airplane mode, the big proprotors present an impenetrable wall at the forward cabin door. They've put a tripod-mounted SAW on the tail ramp and that's useful for the rear hemisphere.

EADS developed a palletized turreted gun system that gets snugged up in the belly "hellhole" but the field of fire allowed by the software means basically you can shoot people in the top of their heads, but not much to either side.

This may be one of those unsolvable design problems that is not fixable in this first-generation tiltrotor.

TC

[RevDisk]

An enemy 500 miles away, for starters. A V-22 can carry 24 combat-equipped Marines 500 miles in two hours and return for more in the same time. The higher speed/range/payload capabilities of the tiltrotor are its main advantages. But as in all compromise aircraft designs, to get something, you give up something.

TC

Problem with that is no guns.  You need another platform to provide escort when the Osprey is 500 miles away from base.  Don't worry, you'll have that project on your desk in another 5, 10 years.

They have worked with gunpods and the like, from my limited reading the problem is weight and controlling the guns so they can't be fired into the rotors at any given angle, though i think that shouldn't be a huge technical issue.  Make 'em remote operated from a pilot headset and have a cutoff when the airframe is endangered.

Weight wasn't the biggest thing per se.  Integration was.  Weight just made integration extremely problematic.  Basically, the nose is the only part of the Osprey you can 'easily' mount a big honkin gun.  Problem is, there's already a lot of kit there to begin with.  You have to bolt on the nose gun (without hitting any of the existing stuff), route the wires and ancillary kit (without hitting any of the existing stuff), and integrate it into the aircraft's existing systems (without FUBAR'ing any of the existing stuff). 

Folks looked at it and said "too expensive", then dropped the requirement.  So the sole defensive weapon is a M240 mounted in the rear.  I suppose to cover LZ's when landing or taking off? 

Why not mount guns on the Osprey?....worked for the Hueys....

....and yet we launch the things near an ocean.... 

1.  Can't, except for the M240 on the tail.
2.  Near is a flexible word.  We launch the the Space Shuttle more than a hundred meters from the ocean, and they are stored in buildings when not being launched.  OTOH, Navy aircraft and ships tend to be quite a bit closer to the salt water and often for longer durations.

[Gewehr98]

Wonder if someone will make something to escort 'em Ospreys around.  You know, with guns and such.

They do.  It's called an A-10.  Low, slow, and a buttload of ordnance. 

Y'all ever notice how funny it is that a given airframe will get past the design stages and into A or B model production, and THEN folks start wanting to hang extra crap on it.  They couldn't be bothered to add the guns and microwave ovens during the blueprint phase, no...

If I were Bell-Boeing-Vertol?  You want an ACV-22 gunship?  Fine, but you're gonna pay extra. It can be done, witness the AC-130, but after-the-fact it'll always be a royal pain in the posterior.  Getting all bent out of shape because one can't hang guns on a CV-22 simply means that those who wanted such amenities never brought the concept forward during the design phase, or the big giant heads deleted the requirement at some point afterwards. 

Hell, if I could've had Sparrows or Sidewinders hanging off my WC-135, those Nork MiG-29s would never have had the big brass cajones to mess with us in the Sea of Japan a few years ago. 

[280plus]

Sounds a lot like building a new house. I know a guy who had these poor SOBs rip out and redo his bathroom layout 3 times. THEN he wanted to know what was taking so long and why is it so much more money. Aren't life's parallels a hoot? 

[Hawkmoon]

They do.  It's called an A-10.  Low, slow, and a buttload of ordnance.

The Warthog got my vote, too, when I read that comment.

How many times has the Warthog been declared "obsolete" now? Seems to be one of those platforms that's been obsolete for so long that everyone just plain forgot to build anything to replace it ...

[Matthew Carberry]

Modify the nacelles.  Put a remote-operated gun (mod. SAW? something light) in a pod on the outside of each nacelle.  Nose gun for arc forward of rotors (like the AH's).

The nacelle and nose guns can be physically limited to not fire into the rotor arc.

In forward flight the nacelle guns would have full movement to aft/up/down/ and starboard or port depending (quarter sphere effectively), in hover that becomes forward/aft/down and strbrd or port.

Being remote with a camera the system can automatically change orientation to be comfortable for the operator in the aircraft.  For a mass landing you'd only need a gunner on the "outside" gun leaving a crew chief free to do his job, on a Pave-type variant add another gunner station (which would be a modular plug-in station inside the aircraft).

[seeker_two]

http://www.members.shaw.ca/david.p.z.888/star_wars/pics/republic_gunship.jpg

Maybe we could hang some of these ball things on it?.....

[roo_ster]

Tell me again how many A-10s are part of the MEU, MEB, & MEF?

In reality, they got the AV-8B and maybe squiddie F18s.  Nothing that gets low & slow with lots of guns.  Or anything that will loiter right nearby for a goodly amount of time.

[Gewehr98]

Sounds like a planning problem at the Puzzle Palace, to me.

It's not as if the A-10C doesn't do CAS.  USAF assets don't have to be administratively attached to an MEU or any other Marine sortie to provide cover, last I looked. They just have to be tasked. See Puzzle Palace reference, above.

There are plenty of Joint Chiefs-directed multi-service ops out there, simply pick and choose.  I flew joint Navy/USAF ops with minimal spacing between P-3C Reef Point, WC-135B Constant Phoenix, HC-130N, and RC-135S Cobra Ball assets all working over the same targets, and that was nigh unto 15 years ago. I was the USAF mission commander on the Navy P-3C, no less. Obstacles?  What obstacles?   

Hanging a plethora of extra guns on an airframe that's already at weight limits?  Not without something else getting deleted, I'm afraid.