Author Topic: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey) (Read 26898 times)

MechAg94 · « **Reply #75 on:** November 24, 2009, 11:50:07 PM »

Why wouldn't the F-35 or Harrier fill in the escort duty? I seriously doubt you are going to fly Ospreys down onto Omaha beach under fire without support. If you are going to land troops 500 miles away, you have the flexibility to choose where to drop them. I thought the whole idea of them was to put troops on a beach so that waterborne craft could move in on a controlled beach.

Balog · « **Reply #76 on:** November 24, 2009, 11:50:53 PM »

Can A-10's operate off carriers?

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #77 on:** November 24, 2009, 11:58:34 PM »

Not without carrier-modified landing gear and a proper Navy tailhook, Balog.

Catapult launches and trap wire landings induce their own stresses on carrier-based aircraft.

Balog · « **Reply #78 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:02:59 AM »

Interesting. So if they need support when they do the task that is their primary justification (long range insertion) and the only suitable craft to do this can't launch via carrier.... why are we fussing about getting them to launch off carriers?

MechAg94 · « **Reply #79 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:12:32 AM »

Why would you say the only aircraft that can support them is the A-10? Support them from what? If there is enemy armor in the landing zone, I doubt you would send in any aircraft to land. If you are concerned about enemy fighters, the A-10 is hardly ideal.

Now if you are talking about supporting the Marines on the ground after the V-22 flies away, that is another story and that can be done with a number of different aircraft.

Balog · « **Reply #80 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:20:05 AM »

I won't claim to be an expert, but for prolonged CAS the only craft I know of that does it well is the A-10. All the other fast movers aren't that great at it.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #81 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:28:21 AM »

Depends on the mission requirements, Balog. I wasn't the one saying it had to launch from a carrier.

If there's a target within range of an airstrip-launched and air-refuelable A-10 variant, CAS via that method would be mighty fine.

Outside the sortie range of an A-10? Then you switch to other platforms, and modify the mission accordingly.

Send a CV-22 or two back to depot, rip everything out that isn't bolted down, and fix a minigun in the nose to create that ACV-22 dedicated gunship. Then use it as a dedicated tiltrotor escort.

seeker_two · « **Reply #82 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:28:25 AM »

Quote from: Balog on November 25, 2009, 12:20:05 AM

I won't claim to be an expert, but for prolonged CAS the only craft I know of that does it well is the A-10. All the other fast movers aren't that great at it.

I'd add the AC-130's to that list...esp. in the loiter time department.....

French G. · « **Reply #83 on:** November 25, 2009, 01:18:44 AM »

The Harrier will have to do the long range CAS if other services are not around. No long loiter, but it does have an IFR probe. The belly mounted 25mm gun pack is some serious unhappiness coming from the sky. AH-1W and AH-1Y can handle closer stuff. If I was in charge I'd want a tailhook on an A-10, just deck launch them ,no cat needed most likely. Beyond CAS ashore, the trick would be to penetrate or expend a surface combatant's point defenses. Then the GAU-8 shows up, burn to waterline ensues. I think Tom Clancy did that in one of his books. Anyway, I wouldn't want to be a frigate commander reloading my point defenses after a Harpoon attack and see an A-10 appear inbound. I think I'd rather take my chances with the cruise missile.

roo_ster · « **Reply #84 on:** November 25, 2009, 01:29:41 AM »

I am aware of joint operations and have modeled current and proposed future USMC and joint C4ISR for this sort of thing. I am for it every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Thing is, I specifically mentioned the jarhead ME* because they are supposed to be everything rolled up with a nice bow on top: infantry, armor, arty, FW aviation, airmobile, etc. All by itself, it is supposed to go anywhere in the world and complete a mission appropriate to its size:

There are places where Bad Things Happen on short notice that are out of range but a very, very few USAF assets (B1, B2, B52).

Now, relative to the Army, a lot of USMC "arty" is located on its CAS and jarhead pilots know why they exist: to support the rifleman on the ground. So the ME* have that going for them.

Thing is, this whole airmobile thing has been done for a while and Army & even AF knows how it is done right. Doing it right includes (among other things) having munition platforms with flight characteristics roughly equivalent to the troop transports. They stick close and are right there down low near the LZ, keeping an hairy eyeball out. No delta-winged fast mover thousands of feet up in the air is going to provide supporting fires as quick or as effective. I doubt even an A-10 could be as responsive.

The jarheads aren't stupid and they know this. I bet the original plan called for a certain proportion of Osprey gunships, but they got axed. Now, they've got troop transports that are hella fast and their Cobra gunships are too fat & ugly to go to the dance with the hot & sexay Ospreys. So, the Harriers get the job. Interesting and capable aircraft, but it is no gunship.

Leatherneck · « **Reply #85 on:** November 25, 2009, 06:38:15 AM »

A gun has been an operational requirement on the Osprey forever. I remember asking a long-ago PM how the development of the gun was coming along and he responded: "I consider the gun an unfunded mandate." That was nearly two decades ago, and it never really changed; there was never enough money on the program (or maybe enough credible schemes to demand funding) to get an integrated gun solution.

The original "concept" of a nose turret with full-coverage gun inside always caused me a headache. Who controls it? If it's the pilot, he can only see targets on the left side. Copilot? Same problem on the right. What with the V-22 maneuvering, how do you handle crew coordination as the target passes the nose?

"I've got it."
"What? The gun or the aircraft?"
"No, the aircraft. You've got the gun."
"Where'd the target go?"

I dunno the best answer...

TC

280plus · « **Reply #86 on:** November 25, 2009, 07:26:26 AM »

Have someone operate the gun remotely by satellite etc. or AWACS is it? The flying saucer plane thingy. I believe it does have the thing that goes up. lol...

Aren't they doing that with some umanned stuff already? Combine it. We'll start a "Save the Osprey" fund here on APS for the funding. I got the first dollar.

MicroBalrog · « **Reply #87 on:** November 25, 2009, 08:01:08 AM »

Quote

What with the V-22 maneuvering, how do you handle crew coordination as the target passes the nose?

You know, I may be on drugs here, but maybe bulb-shaped, B-17-type turrets somewhere on the craft, manned or unmanned?

[Manned would be far more awesome, but unmanned would be far more practical, I suspect].

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #88 on:** November 25, 2009, 08:17:34 AM »

The AV8 is more than capable of providing the necessary CAS. And anyone who doesn't think the average Marine Aviator will stick that thing right down in the weeds to provide serious hurt is seriously mistaken. I've seen what an AV8 can and will do in training, including training to call CAS missions.

Balog · « **Reply #89 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:27:06 AM »

Quote from: JamisJockey on November 25, 2009, 08:17:34 AM

The AV8 is more than capable of providing the necessary CAS. And anyone who doesn't think the average Marine Aviator will stick that thing right down in the weeds to provide serious hurt is seriously mistaken. I've seen what an AV8 can and will do in training, including training to call CAS missions.

How much armament can a Harrier carry, and what kind of linger time do they have? Not being snarky, I'm actually curious.

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #90 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:44:14 AM »

Quote from: Balog on November 25, 2009, 09:27:06 AM

How much armament can a Harrier carry, and what kind of linger time do they have? Not being snarky, I'm actually curious.

GAU 12 pod with 300 rounds, plus 7 hard points. Typical CAS armament would be some zunis, mavericks and 500 pounders.
Wiki has an accurate run down
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV8B#Specifications_.28AV-8B.2B_Harrier_II_Plus.29
Loiter depends on a number of factors, but with a 1400mi range it can easily keep up with an osprey and stay on station long enough to provide support.

French G. · « **Reply #91 on:** November 25, 2009, 10:17:25 AM »

Back in my early Navy days the country was in its bomb Bosnia stage. Then a little later it was Kosovo, another cruise, another story. I watched flight ops a lot then, young and trying to learn. Our ship carried 3 F-18 squadrons, 2 Navy and one Marine being the VMFA-312 Checkerboards. Most of the missions there were CAP and dismantling anything dumb enough to turn on its radar. The planes would typically go out with a couple of GBUs, a few HARMs, and standard defensive armament. Watching recovery the Navy Hornets would bring back a missile or two, maybe part of their bombload. Then here would come a -312 Hornet. Racks empty, trail of gun residue down the aircraft from nose to tail. Surprised they didn't figure out how to get their wingtip AIM-9s or droptanks on target.

Marine pilots think different, AKA correctly, when it comes to ground attack. The Harrier will do fine until the JSF gets on the scene.

MillCreek · « **Reply #92 on:** November 25, 2009, 10:50:12 AM »

I wonder how many Harriers are left in the USMC inventory. It has been quite a while since McDonnell built any. I wonder if there is any active Harrier assembly line left in the world. I don't think the British or Spanish are buying any more.

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #93 on:** November 25, 2009, 11:14:43 AM »

F35's will be replacing the Harrier, IIRC.

Another angle to consider is the entirity of the strike package. If you need the cobras, the OV22 flies in with the Cobras. Cobras loiter on station while the OV22's go back to get another load. Turnover time for the OV22 would certainly be faster than a good ole frog or '53. Harriers (and eventually, the F35) provide overall coverage for the entire operation.

French G. · « **Reply #94 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:07:22 PM »

Another consideration is that if there is a beachhead established Marine aviation excels at quickly organizing FARPs, Forward Arming and Refueling points. The Cobras can then get gas and moar ammo 10 minutes from the fight while the Osprey is going to get another load.

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #95 on:** November 25, 2009, 12:33:54 PM »

Quote from: French G. on November 25, 2009, 12:07:22 PM

Another consideration is that if there is a beachhead established Marine aviation excels at quickly organizing FARPs, Forward Arming and Refueling points. The Cobras can then get gas and moar ammo 10 minutes from the fight while the Osprey is going to get another load.

What he said. Part of my old job was setting up a FARP. With just a couple thousand feet of bare ground, we could be landing and launching C130's within minutes. Fuel bladders and ammo arrive, cobras land and get rearmed, and the op continues.
Its all a well orchestrated ballet of death.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #96 on:** November 25, 2009, 03:23:33 PM »

Quote from: French G. on November 25, 2009, 12:07:22 PM

Another consideration is that if there is a beachhead established Marine aviation excels at quickly organizing FARPs, Forward Arming and Refueling points. The Cobras can then get gas and moar ammo 10 minutes from the fight while the Osprey is going to get another load.

That is sort of what I was thinking. If the operation is coordinated, the Marines on the ground are not operating alone very long. The Marines have hovercraft and landing craft they can bring in close to provide more support. Once the initial attack/incursion is underway, the amphibious carrier is moving in closer with the chopper support also.

The other point is if the Osprey has weight limits and such, how will it carry enough armament to make any difference in a CAS role? It isn't going to be able to carry the armament and ammo load of those transport aircraft. I don't know if it would be as maneuverable as a Cobra or A-10 over the target and it may not be as rugged taking fire. You can't turn everything into a flying tank.

Matthew Carberry · « **Reply #97 on:** November 25, 2009, 06:27:31 PM »

Couldn't we just use gun cameras/sensors and virtual HUDs?

The gun operator doesn't need to be able to see the target with his eyes, he needs to see what the camera on the gun sees, which is a heads up display gunsight with all sorts of magic vision stuff (IR and thermal?) integral. So give it to the co-pilot on the nose or even a crew chief/gunner in the fuselage. Same with the "wing" guns.

A feed system for the nose wouldn't be hard to rig up, hell the magazine could be a modular pod on the belly, and a "gunship" or spec-ops variant won't have a weight issue because it won't be carrying as many (or any) troops, drop even just a squad and you've saved over a ton in mass and cube. A transport version won't be on the ground long and can reload when it goes back for the next wave, if armed at all. Nacelle guns would be tricky to feed from the fuselage or wings but could also have modular ammo packs and be saved for "point" defense on the ground.

I'm no engineer but this doesn't seem like a huge issue in theory and the mechanics don't seem insurmountable.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #98 on:** November 25, 2009, 09:26:32 PM »

Quote from: Leatherneck on November 25, 2009, 06:38:15 AM

The original "concept" of a nose turret with full-coverage gun inside always caused me a headache. Who controls it? If it's the pilot, he can only see targets on the left side. Copilot? Same problem on the right. What with the V-22 maneuvering, how do you handle crew coordination as the target passes the nose?

"I've got it."
"What? The gun or the aircraft?"
"No, the aircraft. You've got the gun."
"Where'd the target go?"

I dunno the best answer...

Simple.

You farm it out to that high school kid who built the robotic airsoft gun and let him make something that's small enough to fit and fully mission capable, for about $1200 and a sack full of Big Macs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DRxBa5bQfTGc

280plus · « **Reply #99 on:** November 26, 2009, 10:12:25 AM »

I'll fund one of the Big Macs. That's nearly 400% of my original budget though. Hmmm, already the price is going up.

News:

Author Topic: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey) (Read 26898 times)