You Are All a Public Danger

[longeyes]

You don't have to be a Democrat to subvert your country.  Two Bushes have proven that.  There are two parties all right, one in Congress and the unelected Rest of Us who are locked out of representation.  The difference--in terms of actual policies--between the two parties has become marginal.  Being "the Loyal Opposition" is not going to stop the tyranny that is unfolding.

[Balog]

Ah, yes, let's keep talking about how the Republican's didn't do nearly as much as they ought to have done, and more than they should have done, all at the same time.  It's such a very obscure fact, we should all make sure everyone knows about it.  Maybe that way, we can keep the Democratic Party in power for ever and ever and ever.  It's worked the past two election years. 

Yeah, holding the R's accountable for their actions is a terrible idea. We should just shut up and vote for them no matter what they do. That'll fix the problems in the party! Any disloyal thoughts are treasonous and must be squelched. 

[Tallpine]

But we do have two parties: the Fascist party and the Communist party 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I don't get it.  I really, really don't get it.

If you people don't like the Republican party the way it is, why aren't you getting involved so that you can change it back into whatever it is you expect from them?  You all act as though withdrawing from the Republican party is somehow going to make them eager to represent you and your values.

News flash: when conservative/libertarian types withdraw from the party, the party withdraws from them too.  They don't come running back to you begging for your forgiveness. 

If you want to stop what's going on in Washington, you're going to need a Republican Party that's both strong and conservative.  And you're not going to get that behaving the way you do.

Do you guys actually want to fix things in Washington?  Want it enough to work for it?  (Honest questions, not rhetorical)

[longeyes]

The problem isn't our behavior, it's theirs.  They were elected to advance certain principles and agendas.  But they long since stopped doing that.  We speak, but THEY DO NOT LISTEN. 

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, holding the R's accountable for their actions is a terrible idea. We should just shut up and vote for them no matter what they do. That'll fix the problems in the party! Any disloyal thoughts are treasonous and must be squelched. 

Well no, you shouldn't shut up and vote for them.  Neither do I.  But neither should we constantly harp on the same tired old points that everybody already knows.  It's one thing to loudly disagree with Pres. Bush or Congressional Republicans.  It's another thing to constantly rehearse the same tirade that everyone's already heard.   

Fair enough.

If your party isn't aiming for meaningful change, it doesn't deserve to get power.

If conservatives allow their party to be come a set of Democrats with slightly different trappings (a lip service to their values and beliefs rather than actual action), they deserve to have the Democrats come in and break everything.

OK, but do we Americans deserve to have the Democrats come in and break everything? 

[AZRedhawk44]

Yeah, but Fisty:

Every time we kick out the bad Repubs and allow the seats to get flushed with Democrats, the Dems install more social welfare and socialist programs.  Then we get mad that we're getting robbed and we put in Republicans, who 1) don't remove the social programs and 2) establish weird domestic national security priorities and build just a little bit more police state.  Then we get mad at the Republicans, and we put in more democrats who don't dismantle the police state, but still start building more crap that we can get angry at so that we can get more police state with the next voter indignation phase.  And so on.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

Perhaps we're waking up from insanity and that's why we want a 3rd party:  So that neither party can accomplish anything without convincing at least one of the other parties to go along with it.

A Libertarian contingent in Congress, perhaps just 10%, would be enough to accomplish that.  Just so that neither of the existing parties has 50% control.

[Perd Hapley]

What does constant recitation of the GOP's well-known failures have to do with third parties?  All I'm saying is, we keep preaching to each other about how bad the Republicans are, as if it were something new.  It isn't.  Who hasn't heard this already?  Every time I turn on the radio, or read our politics forum, it's the same old thing, repeated as if the writer/speaker has had an original thought. 

Gee, no wonder no Repub's have come out to the polls since 2004.  The way we tear down the GOP like this, they could have run Jesus Christ, with Abe Lincoln as VP, and they still would have lost.

[longeyes]

Republicans don't come to the polls because they feel increasingly shut out of the process, disenfranchised, not to mention betrayed.  When it doesn't matter who you run for office and the legacy of your nation is in peril, it's time to begin questioning all of your assumptions about how the game's played.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The problem isn't our behavior, it's theirs.  They were elected to advance certain principles and agendas.  But they long since stopped doing that.  We speak, but THEY DO NOT LISTEN. 

You couldn't be more wrong.  They do listen.  The question is, do you know what you're saying? 

What you're saying is that you won't support Republicans.  You won't vote for them.  You won't help them in elections.  You don't want them to win.  You won't be a sound and trustworthy base of political support for them.  You're telling them you don't want them to represent you.  You're telling them they should forget about courting conservatives and go find different electoral block to pursue, one that will support them.

Well guess what.  They're listening.  I'm hearing it more and more from Republican politicians locally.  They're abandoning you as much as you're abandoning them. 

They don't care that you're taking your ball and going home.  They'll find someone else to play with.

[longeyes]

Yeah, I/we know what we are saying.  I didn't say I wouldn't support Republicans, that I wouldn't vote for them.  I said they don't listen to us and are not really Republicans in any sense that matters any more.  When the chips are down, they compromise, they "cooperate," they cave. 

The Republicans of the Bush stripe began courting other electoral blocs a while ago.  We can thank The Architect for some of that, but Bush the Elder was already on that course even before W. took office.

Republicans are abandoning us?  To become what exactly?  The de facto liberals they already were?

[Balog]

HTG: no one is saying we won't support R's. The whole Contract with America thing is a good illustration of this. R's actually sounded conservative and had a plan, people voted for them in droves. They got elected and screwed us, failed to live up to their promises and we withdrew that support. Only so much can be done at a local level. As long as the national party keeps putting Democrat Lite tools like Mike "Hey look we have a black guy too!" Steele in charge, and funding RINO's like Scozzafava it will make people not support them.

The message is not "We won't support you." The message is "We won't support you, until you represent us." I think the conservative will was made known pretty clearly via the Tea Parties etc.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The Contract with America thing is a prime example of the problem.  The CwA was a good idea, lots of positive policies, much of it was passed, all of it was put up for a vote.  It was a darned good thing overall, as much as anyone can reasonably expect from a political party.  And here you are 15 years later, still griping about it as if it were a failure or a blemish on their record.

They go out on a limb for you and 15 years later you're still spitting on them for it.  You say you want to support candidates who represent you.  Well, your actions show otherwise.

Looking through this thread and lots of others here on APS and elsewhere, it's clear that way too many folks have a bug up their buts over the Republican Party.  Everything is their fault, either because they did something wrong, or because someone else did something wrong and they weren't able to stop it, or because they just plain weren't perfect enough (and "perfect" is defined differently for each complainer), or because they compromised in a situation where anything else would have gotten them creamed by a political bus, or whatever.  Way too many folks are waiting around for the "perfect" candidate and swear they won't vote for anything else, and even when a candidate comes along who is clearly much closer to perfect than the alternatives, they still refuse to vote for him.  There's always an excuse. 

And then y'all complain even more because many Republicans take notice of this fact and move towards other voting blocks because they know they can't count on you.

Bottom line is that I can see what y'all are willing to do to oppose Republicans.  I see that all too often.  I want to see what you're willing to do to support the good Republican politicians out there.  If anything.  Grinding it out in local politics isn't much fun, it's a lot of work and often fruitless.  Not nearly as entertaining as whinging on the net.  But it works.  It's the only real way to make a positive difference.

I ask again, sincerely, do y'all really want to improve things, or do you simply enjoy complaining?

[Monkeyleg]

I think it's more difficult being a Democrat lately. A former co-worker of mine is pretty much a pacifist, but is also a strict Catholic who is pro-life. He's a fiscal conservative, and moderately social liberal.

Where's he going to go? There's no room in the Democrat tent for pro-lifer's. While the Republicans haven't shown much restraint fiscally, the Democrats are binging right now. As for social moderates, they've been pushed aside as well.

[longeyes]

Everything is their fault, either because they did something wrong, or because someone else did something wrong and they weren't able to stop it, or because they just plain weren't perfect enough (and "perfect" is defined differently for each complainer), or because they compromised in a situation where anything else would have gotten them creamed by a political bus, or whatever.  Way too many folks are waiting around for the "perfect" candidate and swear they won't vote for anything else, and even when a candidate comes along who is clearly much closer to perfect than the alternatives, they still refuse to vote for him.  There's always an excuse.

The GOP went off the tracks, and a lot of people know it.  They became a party of collusion. 

No one expects perfection, just adherence to basic principles.  Too many Republicans have lost sight of that.

[Tallpine]

Do you guys actually want to fix things in Washington?

Not anymore.  I just want it to go away. 

At this point in the spending deficit curve, that is pretty much a given due to default/bankruptcy.  The only question is how and when it will happen, and how nasty things will get as those in power try to hang on... 

[longeyes]

Point is, there are many types of "going away," as you know...

What's clear is that where we are now, politically, does not offer any benign solutions, not, at least, in my view.

You read about what's getting paid off with TARP monies (Burston-Marsteller), you read about the TSA's "accidental" SNAFU, and you shake your head...

[Jamisjockey]

What does constant recitation of the GOP's well-known failures have to do with third parties?  All I'm saying is, we keep preaching to each other about how bad the Republicans are, as if it were something new.  It isn't.  Who hasn't heard this already?  Every time I turn on the radio, or read our politics forum, it's the same old thing, repeated as if the writer/speaker has had an original thought.  

Gee, no wonder no Repub's have come out to the polls since 2004.  The way we tear down the GOP like this, they could have run Jesus Christ, with Abe Lincoln as VP, and they still would have lost.

Because most of the current crop of Republicans believe in continuing the cycle.  Bring us some serious libertarian minded (R) candidates, damnit!  
The fact that people like Romney are considered to be frontrunners for the next election cycle speaks volumes of the (R) party.

[Perd Hapley]

Well said. 

Preaching to the choir is one of my pet peeves.  'Course I'm guilty of it, too, but it just gets so old.  And it don't accomplish much, 'cept to elect Obamas and Pelosis. 

[eyebrows]

Not anymore.  I just want it to go away. 

At this point in the spending deficit curve, that is pretty much a given due to default/bankruptcy.  The only question is how and when it will happen, and how nasty things will get as those in power try to hang on... 

I'm right there with you on that. At this point I don't think "fixing" the Gov is going to be as simple as electing the right people. The folks running the USA off a cliff are not going to give up when they are so close, they don't respect us (the people) anymore, they are not going to just let us vote them out.

[Balog]

Well said. 

Preaching to the choir is one of my pet peeves.  'Course I'm guilty of it, too, but it just gets so old.  And it don't accomplish much, 'cept to elect Obamas and Pelosis. 

So preaching to the choir about the faults of the people who are supposed to be on our side is bad. But constantly repeating criticism of Obama et al is a-ok?

[Perd Hapley]

Yes and no.  Same-same-same criticism of the same-same-same cast of lefties is also annoying.  BUT, it doesn't have the unfortunate side-effect of helping a much worse party win elections. 

All that being said, can you really criticize the left too much?  They're very evil, dangerous people. 

[Balog]

And the so-called "right" are weak and complicit fools who apparently (according to HTG) will whore their votes to whoever seems like a more steady revenue stream. To some people, Quislings are worse than [/Godwin]s.

[Perd Hapley]

But again, you have the unfortunate side effect of keeping people away from the not-quite-as-bad party, which helps keep the thoroughly evil party in power.   

[Balog]

But again, you have the unfortunate side effect of keeping people away from the not-quite-as-bad party, which helps keep the thoroughly evil party in power.   

You'd think the less evil folks would change after it keeps happening, wouldn't you?