Author Topic: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?  (Read 14542 times)

brimic

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 10:10:50 AM »
Quote
Interestingly, here's an alternate theory on WWII.

Summary- Russia wins it all:

http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/10640.html

A far more believable and possible alternate history:

Patton is given permission by Truman to invade the Soviet Union. He picks up willing scraps of the Wehrmacht to help him and kicks all forms of arse. 50 years of cold war never happens.  The end.
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MechAg94

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 10:21:48 AM »
I have heard it suggested that the Japanese should have stopped with the invasion of the Phillipine islands.  If they had, we would have sent our Pacific fleet after them and they would have had their navy as well as island based planes to attack us.  Not to mention that some of their naval operations were better than ours at the beginning of the war. 

To say that a larger defeat in the Pacific would have essentially knocked us out of the war is a little different.  It certainly would have taken longer for us to build up our fleet and we would have had more concern for defending Hawaii and our Western coasts. 

If that had happened, would Alaska have been attacked and would we have ever built the road to Alaska?
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roo_ster

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2009, 10:26:21 AM »
A far more believable and possible alternate history:

Patton is given permission by Truman to invade the Soviet Union. He picks up willing scraps of the Wehrmacht to help him and kicks all forms of arse. 50 years of cold war never happens.  The end.

Much more plausible, given that we would have withdrawn our support of hte USSR right when they were most extended. 

We could have destroyed TWO evil totalitarian regimes in the space of a few years.  Likely a feat of liberation never to be equaled in the past and future history of mankind.

But, too many Communists in the Democrat FDR/Truman administration to allow such a sensible use of force.
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roo_ster

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jackdanson

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2009, 12:33:40 PM »
Quote
A far more believable and possible alternate history:

Patton is given permission by Truman to invade the Soviet Union. He picks up willing scraps of the Wehrmacht to help him and kicks all forms of arse. 50 years of cold war never happens.  The end.

Or we would have made it 1/3 of the way through the country and been stopped just like Hitler and Napoleon had been.  USSR/Russia was/is a VAST country, if the government kept the citizens fighting I don't think we would have won that war.  The best bet would have been to act as liberators and hope the government crumbled from the inside.  Even then I'd think you'd be looking at 1-2 million american casualties.  The government still fell, it just took a few years.  =D

Oh yeah, plus we were still fighting the Japanese.  At the time we didn't know how much more time/resources were going to need to be poured into that.

agricola

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2009, 01:23:55 PM »
A far more believable and possible alternate history:

Patton is given permission by Truman to invade the Soviet Union. He picks up willing scraps of the Wehrmacht to help him and kicks all forms of arse. 50 years of cold war never happens.  The end.

I think this whole "Patton would have kicked their arses" is more than a bit wrong, tbh.  The Red Army of 44-45 was well-trained, well-equipped, well-led (albeit not at the very top, where Stalin had both regained all his power and all his arrogance in order to plan the destruction of many of the men who had actually won the war) and in the main very experienced.  It took the West the best part of a year and many thousands of lives to beat a considerably worn down, poorly-equipped, outnumbered, outgunned and surrender-happy (especially as 1945 wore on) Wehrmacht and travel from Normandy to the Elbe.  To beat the USSR, they would have had to traverse a devastated Europe as far as Moscow without ever encountering a strategic target worthy of the name and with with supply lines running thousands of miles.

Nor was there such a techonological advantage enjoyed by the Allies - if one takes tanks alone, the T34/85 was by itself better than any contemporary western tank and was available in huge numbers, and the IS-3 was several orders of magnitude better than that (it was still relatively effective against the M48 in 1967).  The allies would probably have an advantage in the air, but would have had to face large numbers (many more than the Luftwaffe put up) of relatively good aircraft, and (the B29 aside) there would have been few strategic aircraft capable of even reaching the factories that were building all the Red Army's equipment, let alone coming back.   
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brimic

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2009, 01:58:29 PM »
We had nukes.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2009, 03:28:46 PM »
We had nukes.

Which we would have used how?

Bombed Soviet-occupied Europe to save it?

Sent waves of B-29's, each with a somehow-produced-in-mass-quantities capturable bomb on board, subject to mechanical failure or interception by fighters en route, to maybe make it all the way to Moscow/Leningrad?

I'm not sure with the delivery systems we had and the distances involved that we could have pushed Stalin around too much.  Maybe by making him look weak and setting off another revolution?  But who inside Russia would know and how?
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roo_ster

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 03:55:05 PM »
jackdanson:

The Pacific was always a side show and Japan a second-rate threat, relative to Germany.  Or at least that was how FDR & his boys treated the war in the Pacific.  Yes, there were some Army units needed, but if we had not island hopped AND gone up through the PI (thanks Mac), the USMC and the Navy's Pacific fleet could have run the Japanese back to Japan all by their lonesome.


agricola:

Good points on the state of the Red Army and its technological high points (T34).  Thing was, the Armies of the West were also blooded.  And Patton had shown the way to make gains without grinding an army into dust. 

It does avoid, however, the USSR's dependence on supply form the Allies for materials of all sorts to keep fighting. 

The USSR was highly dependent on rail transportation, but during the war practically shut down rail equipment production: only about 92 locomotives were produced. 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 railcars were supplied under Lend-Lease. The USSR had a pre-war stock of over 25,000 locomotives and 600,000 railcars. The Lend-Lease stock did not start being shipped until 1944.[citation needed] Likewise, the Soviet air force received 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft).[7]

Although most Red Army tank units were equipped with Soviet-built tanks, their logistical support was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed by 1945 nearly two-thirds of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge 3/4 ton and Studebaker 2 1/2 ton, were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front.[8] U.S. supplies of telephone cable, aluminum, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.

American aid to the Soviet Union between 1941 and 1945 amounted to 18 million tons of materiel at an overall cost of $10 billion ($120 billion modern) and 49 percent of it went through Vladivostok, the major Pacific port of Far Eastern Russia, Tuyll reported.

In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan...

90 percent of lend-lease cargo was not military, however it’s impossible to talk about this U.S. government directive without mentioning the huge number of trucks, planes and tanks which were supplied by America to the Soviet Union because most of the country’s vehicles were destroyed in the first months of war, Tuyll noted.

“Russians would just jump into the trucks which came to the Iranian border and head North,” the professor said.

According to him, aviation was also important part of land lease and the Soviet Union received 21,000 planes for this program. P-39, or air cobra, and later its improved version called king cobra were passed to the Red Army.

There were 20 million homeless, and 25 million dead, four tenth of agriculture was lost and half of the industrial production was destroyed. “If there were no lend lease the losses could have been much heavier, the war would have lasted longer and the victory was not so complete”, Tuyll concluded.

Jones concludes, predictably, that lend-lease shipments helped stem the German tide and boost the morale of Soviet fighting men. Like General John R. Deane, Chief of the U.S. Military Mission to the U.S.S.R., 1943-45, he stresses the contribution to Soviet military mobility of the tremendous number of trucks, jeeps, motorcycles, and other lend-lease vehicles and points to the important role that shipments of food, specialized metals, and petroleum products played in meeting Soviet deficiencies.


In two particular areas the help was indispensable. With major agricultural regions of the Soviet Union under enemy occupation, and the unsatisfactory system of distribution and transportation, to say nothing of mismanagement, the Soviet state had more than a nodding acquaintance with famine. Without Western aid, during the war the Soviet population would have been in danger of sharing the fate of those trapped in Leningrad and the earlier victims of collectivization. Even with the American aid, many Russians died from lack of food. Equally important was Lend-Lease’s contribution to transportation. It would have been impossible for the Red Army to move the masses of troops and supplies on the primitive roads to the front lines without American Studebaker trucks, which also served as the launching pads for the dreaded Soviet rocket artillery. The trucks were also used for more sinister activities, including the deportation of the North Caucasus Muslims. Less satisfactory for combat were the Western tanks, inferior to the German machines and particularly disadvantaged in the open terrain of the Eastern Front. The memoirs of General Dmitri Loza, published in English in 1996, give us a vivid picture of how these tanks were employed by the Russians. American aircraft, flown by Russian ferry pilots across the vast expanse of Siberia, were put to good use by the Soviet air forces even with planes that were less than popular with Western pilots. A case in point was the Bell P-39 Airacobra, used both as a low-altitude fighter and as ground support. Its odd shape gave Soviet censors fits because it was difficult to conceal that it was the favorite mount of their second-highest-ranking ace, the future marshal of aviation, Aleksandar I. Pokryshkin.

Besides weaponry and food, Lend-Lease provided the Soviet Union with other resources, ranging from clothing to metals.

After the collapse of the Soviet system, Russian historians were able to look into the archival files and total up the real figures. One study, by M.N. Suprin, calculates the caloric content of Lend-Lease foodstuffs sent to the USSR, divides the total by the caloric needs of the Red Army and arrives at a stunning conclusion: "The foodstuffs provided by Lend-Lease to the USSR would have sufficed to feed an army of ten million men for 1,688 days, that is, for the course of the entire war." Another study, by Boris Sokolov, which translates as THE TRUTH ABOUT THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, estimates that the US supplied 92.7% of the USSR's railroad equipment, including locomotives and rails, and from 15% to 90% of production in all other categories. Weeks, who reads Russian, surveys these recent studies and cites them to show that Lend-Lease was indeed "Russia's Life-Saver."

IOW, putting a stop to the lend-lease supplies (maybe even an early cutoff, if our leaders had any foresight) would have left the USSR with no way to move thier great army and no way to bring in the harvest once the lend-lease trucks were worn out or destroyed or abandoned due to lack of fuel.

I you look at the maps, the Russian industry, relocated up against the Urals after the Germans tore through Russia toward Moscow, was easily within combat range of B29 bombers based in Iran from the get-go.  Same with B29s we might have operated out of Scandanavia. One foothold in the Baltics would have allowed bombing from there, too.  B17s would have required a closer base to hit Ural-located industry, but could have provided hella-great support to ground forces and starved the Red Army by destroying rail links & bridges behind the front lines.

A serious option would have been to isolate the Red Army in Europe from any supply to let it starve and grind to a halt from lack of resupply.  All the while getting great gobs torn out of its hide by Patton and a few other of the more energetic Allied leaders.

Heck, after the A-bombs, we could have sent the USMC to take Vladivostok and rolled up the Trans-Siberian railway.

The Red Army was a grand creation, but the weaknesses inherent in the USSR and its economy made it hardly invincible.

As far as nukes, they would not be necessary, but would be an option as soon as more were built.  Not only was Ural idustry in B29 range, but so was Moscow and all of the USSR west of the Urals.  If they were justified vs Japan & Tojo, they were doubly justified vs te USSR & Stalin.
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roo_ster

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »
Taking Vladivostok and going up the rail line popped into my head.  We did that in 1919.

I didn't think about flying up from the ME or through the Baltics with B-29's, I was fixated on the long way from Britain or France.  Completely missed that. 

Conventional strategic bombing would be devastating to their lack of logistical road/rail network.

Flying against the Russian air defenses and fighters in '45 would be a much different proposition than zipping freely over Japan after we'd already destroyed their air force though...

I do agree starving them would be the low risk solution.  The trick would be for Ike to hold the Allies together long enough to blunt the Reds in Germany from pushing us back out of France while it took effect.

Also to get the OSS moving in Eastern Europe.
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Bigjake

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 07:07:56 PM »
I agree with jfruser and carebear.   

Bomb the snot out of their industry and infrastructure.  They need food, diesel and ammo..

  Don't know where nukes would've been overly useful in this equation.  Psychologically,  We might have been able to use nuking Japan as leverage to at least get the Red Army back into the USSR and out of Eastern Europe...

Beating them out of it would've sucked, AND been darned bloody..  :O

Bigjake

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 07:19:47 PM »
If the Germans would have come in as liberators and treated the Ukrainians, et al. as allies rather untermenschen, if proabaly would have won.  The non-Russians of the USSR were pretty much sick and tired of Stalin.

That's my pick.  Then you don't have an annoyed population causing havok behind YOUR lines..

If Hitler hadn't been out of his friggin' mind with crazy racist theories, he might have exploited this...

MechAg94

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2009, 09:28:59 AM »
A few points on our fighting Russia, good and bad:

1.  We only had a few A-bombs.  I thought it was a few years before we were able to make them in quantity.  I don't think we had a 3rd working A-bomb to drop on Japan had they not surrendered.
2.  We were already ramping down our recruitment and training programs in 1945 before the war ended (not sure about production).  The govt wasn't interested in a continued war.  I have heard that rationing and such was starting to end as well.  The Band of Brothers book mentioned that resorts in Florida were full the summer of 1945.
3.  I don't know what morale would be like for the troops who had survived fighting into Germany and were asked to continue against Russia.
4.  I sort of doubt Britain would have been interested a fight with the Russians, though I doubt they would have stopped us.  Certainly not Churchill's replacement.

5.  I think our Air Force would have some advantages over Russia's, but I am not sure how those two would stack up as far as fighters.  How long would it have taken before we both would have been using jet fighters in combat?
6.  We did have heavier tanks than the Sherman in the field by the end of the war, but I don't know how they stacked up to the T-34. 
7.  The reason you don't hear about Japans air defense is because they didn't have anywhere near the size, depth, and sophistication of the German air defense both in anti-aircraft guns, fighters, and early warning systems.  We did get hit over Japan, but not nearly to the extent of what we experienced attacking Germany.  I really doubt the Russians would have been able to match what the Germans did, though they might have used an early warning system similar to the Chinese.

We might have done okay if we played it smart, but I don't think our leadership in Europe or in the US was interested in going into another war. 
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brimic

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2009, 11:31:54 AM »
^good points^

On points 5&6, the Russian tanks and planes would have been relagated to being expensive lawn ornaments if we had cut off shipments of steel, fuel, and replacement parts.
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HankB

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2009, 01:51:49 PM »
Someone said words to the effect of "good generals study tactics, great generals study logistics."

If we had cut off Stalin's supplies to Murmansk and Arkhangelsk, he would have been hard-pressed to stop a Patton offensive to drive him out of Eastern Europe. And once we established forward bases for our bombers, much of his heavy industry would have been vulnerable. We could certainly have liberated the Baltic states of Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia, and set Poland, Czechoslovakia and the rest of Stalin's satellites free.

And of course, we could have taken eastern Germany itself with far less loss than Stalin did - there at the very end, many Germans that fought fanatically against the Red Army would have surrendered quickly to US forces. (But our brass was having none of it. Politics.)

The satellites are one thing, but invading Russia itself and continuing on all the way to Moscow would have been much more difficult (especially during winter) even for Patton. It's pretty much a given that we would have established air superiority over the Red Air Force's Yak fighters and Ilyushin attack aircraft, which would more than offset the Red Army's excellent armor. (Cut the supply lines, and the T34 and JS-series tanks become immobile bunkers.)

But at the end of the war in Europe, we still had Japan on our hands, and the A-Bomb was still very much an uncertain quantity; we thought we might need a million GI's from Europe to throw into an invasion of Japan. Roosevelt/Truman really did screw up by simply handing most of Eastern Europe to Stalin . . . but after four years of war with the Axis, we really weren't excited about going to war with Russia, and people were eager to begin post-war disarmament and de-mobilization as soon as possible.

As a post-script, I've read that when NATO was being formed, Eisenhower was heard to comment that if we'd listened to Patton, NATO wouldn't have been needed . . .
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 09:11:53 PM by HankB »
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MechAg94

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2009, 02:16:08 PM »
I was also thinking that on some of those open plains in Russia, those T-34's would be sitting ducks to fighter bombers.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2009, 03:25:49 PM »
Operation Unthinkable: Allies vs. Russia

http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Why did Russia do so poorly in WW2?
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2009, 05:03:44 PM »
Lots of good points above.

What I would add is that the quality of Soviet units varied widely. Yes, there were desperate counter-attacks of poorly equipped and badly trained recruits, but those were used generally in emergencies as stop-gap measures, e.g. in the early days of Stalingrad. To say that USSR won on such tactics is quite inaccurate. In fact, the chief tools of victory were spearheads of elite troops equipped with the best at Soviet disposal, which increasingly was better in many respects than the equivalent in the other armies. The material advantage shifted decidedly to the Soviets in 1942 and the Axis never regained it. The quality balance is harder to judge, because there are many criteria and the building philosophies were different, but even in that, many would say the Soviets were doing better, chiefly by reliability, practicality, and low cost of the designs. All of that is hardly the peasant wave tactics some have put forth as decisive.

Regarding willingness to sacrifice personnel, I am not convinced that Soviets were that much worse than the Germans. Perhaps so on a company level. Certainly not at the highest levels of authority. The entire idea of 'citadels' that Hitler was so fond of is essentially the same as "not a step back" practiced by Stalin. Just a slightly different way to guarantee massive personnel death for dubious temporary gains. If anything, I'd say the Soviet approach made somewhat more sense in general strategic terms - it was clear time worked for the Soviets, and thus would be a good purchase; it is not at all clear what Hitler's citadels truly bought, as time definitely did not work to the German's advantage.

Regarding the land-lease, it was of critical importance early on while the Soviets were evacuating and restructuring their weapons industry, and later it was of high importance, because it freed up much capacity, which could be directed to tank production. If the Soviets had to produce all those American trucks and jeeps that supported them logistically, they would not have produces the tens of thousands of T34s and self-propelled artillery that actually crushed the Germans.

Regarding Patton's desire to continue fighting, that is just pipe dreams. It was a complete political impossibility for multiple internal and foreign reasons. It was also economically and militarily untenable for reasons others pointed out.

Regarding Napoleon, IMO he defeated himself by attacking in the first place. The terrain, distances, logistics, politics were all against him. He did not have a clear goal or "exit strategy", especially in terms of politics, which incidentally is what destroyed Napolean Europe in the first place. In terms of the military side, Borodino was early on and technically a draw, so it cannot be said that Napoleon was already too weakened to fight effectively.

Russia got a very bad rep due to WW1 and that is why people somehow dismiss its imperial military power. Technically, Russia had a huge and powerful army at the time of Napoleon, benefiting from numerous well-trained patriotic officer corps and loyal and decently equipped professional soldiery. Politically, most soldiers were slaves, being recruited into the army for 30 years without the option to quit. You may think of it as "military serfdom". While horrible by modern cultural standards, it was reasonably effective in providing experienced soldiery in good numbers. Immediately after Napoleon, Russia was the military powerhouse of Europe. It was technological developments that made its military backward again as demonstrated by the Crimean War.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 05:19:31 PM by CAnnoneer »