Author Topic: unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?  (Read 35301 times)

The Rabbi

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unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?
« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2006, 06:09:39 AM »
Quote from: telewinz
 Why are our prisons mainly filled with the lower classes?  Bad luck?
This one has to win the "dumbest argument of the month" award.  But let's extend it.
Why are there so many more Blacks and Hispanics in prison than Samoans?  Samoans commit just as many crimes as Blacks and Hispanics.  Obviously in this country if you are a Samoan you can get away with murder but if you are Black or Hispanic you go to jail.

Quote from: Barbara
What's really interesting in this thread is at least one person's assumption that I'm asking for something for myself.
Could you quote the offending post(s)?  I'll bet there isn't one.  Maybe if you stopped contemplating your navel ring and read the discussion you could contribute something.

Quote from: Daniel Flory
Income doesn't automatically translate into a high net worth, but if you have a higher income, you definitely can save/invest/etc. more
If you got that out of the book then you wasted your time and money.  One of their points was that it is in fact harder to save and invest if you have higher income.  But since that is "basic wisdom" you could explain why.
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Art Eatman

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unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?
« Reply #126 on: January 19, 2006, 08:50:04 AM »
Barbara, please don't re-define success in moral terms, when Telewinz's argument is economic.  His thesis is that the poor or the middle-class can't really move up. Smiley

Nobody ever said the U.S. system is perfect.  What's good is that there is more opportunity for economic advancement here than in all or almost all other countries.

IMO, "poverty" is way too loosely defined in the U.S.  Having travelled extensively in some twenty countries in Europe and Asia, as well as Central America, I'd have to say that anybody with a car, cigarettes and a six-pack might well be poor, here in the U.S., but they ain't in poverty.  The numbers are skewed by the methodology of definition, as well:  Such things as subsidies aren't counted; only cash-flow income.  This ignores such things as housing subsidies, utilities subsidies and food stamps.

I used debt as a tool, just like my wrenches and screwdrivers.  I didn't use debt as a means to support a lifestyle.  Now I have no debt and whatever lifestyle I take a mind for.

And my wrinkles come from the grinning at the fun I had along the way.  I started with nothing much, and now I have more than enough--including a lot of scar tissue on my dadgum hands.  That's good enough for me.

Oh:  IRS and "tax cheats" and all that:  Screwing the government is a Bad Thing, if you break the Eleventh Commandment:  "Thou Shalt Not Get Caught." Otherwise...  Cheesy

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

griz

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unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?
« Reply #127 on: January 19, 2006, 10:06:54 AM »
Telewinz said:

Quote
Even when everybody abides by the law, middle-income households pay more taxes than rich ones.
BS, look it up.
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

richyoung

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unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?
« Reply #128 on: January 19, 2006, 10:43:54 AM »
Quote from: grampster
I guess Mother Theresa,  who's life could be described by some of the previous comments, would be considered a no-account.
Mother Theresa would have done the poor more meaning ful, lasting service if she had started a profitable company and ired 100 of them....
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

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unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?
« Reply #129 on: January 19, 2006, 01:27:55 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: Daniel Flory
Income doesn't automatically translate into a high net worth, but if you have a higher income, you definitely can save/invest/etc. more
If you got that out of the book then you wasted your time and money.  One of their points was that it is in fact harder to save and invest if you have higher income.  But since that is "basic wisdom" you could explain why.
I didn't get that out of the book directly. I know that he says it is harder to save and invest if you have a higher income, which is one of the many reasons I find his advice to be bad. It is harder to be more disciplined with a higher income, there is a distinction.

The Rabbi

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unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?
« Reply #130 on: January 19, 2006, 01:47:05 PM »
Actually what he implies is that people who find themselves earning more have a tendency to up their lifestyle to their income level.  They lock themselves in to high mortgage payments, high car payments, etc.  That is different from just buying a Rolex, where you are basically (but not entirely) done with it once you made the purchase.
Your point is a distinction without a differnce I'm afraid.
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telewinz

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unfortunates....constant poor decision making or bad luck?
« Reply #131 on: January 19, 2006, 03:05:47 PM »
Quote from: griz
Telewinz said:

Quote
Even when everybody abides by the law, middle-income households pay more taxes than rich ones.
BS, look it up.
I did it's a DIRECT Quote!

http://www.askquestions.org/articles/taxes/

Who Really Pays Taxes in America?
Taxes and Politics in 2004
By Cheryl Woodard, Executive Director
AskQuestions.org
Edited by Christy Harrison
April 15, 2004
AskQuestions.org is a public interest news site devoted to raising awareness
about urgent popular issues. People pose questions about a range of subjects
 health, politics, economics, environmental issues  and we collect public
comments and me too votes from other site visitors. We research the most
popular questions and sometimes hire journalists to conduct original reporting
funded through public donations. The non-profit site is supported entirely
through public donations, and we invite you to make a contribution if you find
this article useful. We also invite you to visit the site, pose questions, see what
others are asking, and use the process to bring important issues into the
public agenda.
1563 Solano Avenue, #108
Berkeley, CA 94707
www.askquestions.org
Page 2
CONTENTS
Why We Need A Fair Taxes Campaign in America...................................3
Who Pays Taxes? ....................................................................................3
The Tax Code Feeds Income Inequities and Increases the Problem of
Concentrated Wealth ..............................................................................5
Whats So Unfair About the Personal Income Tax?.................................7
The Estate Tax Increases Income Equality By Funding Public
Investments  But Gets A Death Sentence in Washington......................8
Excess Social Security Taxes Paid by Working Families Fund Income
Tax Cuts for Wealthy Households and Corporations ...............................9
Cities, Counties and States Raise Taxes to Compensate for Federal Tax
Cuts.......................................................................................................11
Record-Breaking Tax Fraud Continues Without Any Significant Political
Response...............................................................................................13
Corporate Tax Incentives Fail to Produce the Promised Economic
Benefits.................................................................................................15
Practical Solutions to the Tax-Based Class War....................................17
References and Resources ....................................................................18
Figures
Figure 1: Richest Taxpayers Pay 33% Less Tax Than Average Households,
When All Federal. State, and Local Taxes Are Combined ........................... 4
Figure 2: The Corporate Share of Taxes is Half What It Was 30 Years Ago........ 5
Figure 3: American Wealth is More Concentrated Than Ever Before ................. 6
Figure 4: CEO Pay Outstrips Profits and Worker Pay....................................... 7
Figure 5: A Lower Tax on Investment Income Favors the Wealthiest
Households Who Own Most of the Nations Investments ........................... 8
Figure 6: Low and Middle-Income Households Pay More Social Security than
Income Taxes, and A Bigger Income Share than Rich Households Pay...... 10
Figure 7: The Tax Burden Is Shifting From National to Local Governments ..... 11
Figure 8: State Taxes Put the Greatest Burden on The Poorest Households .... 12
Figure 9: American 'Spend' More On Tax Fraud Than We Spend on Medicare.. 13
Figure 10: The IRS Audits Poor People Three Times More Frequently Than Rich
Ones................................................................................................. 14
Figure 11: The IRS Only Audits 7 Out Of 1000 Corporate Tax Returns ........... 15
Figure 12: US Corporations Pay the Lowest Income Taxes in The World ......... 16
Page 3
Why We Need A Fair Taxes Campaign in America
Fifteen years ago, socialite Leona Helmsley bragged, only the little people pay
taxes, but then she went to jail for tax fraud.1 Unfortunately, Helmsleys
statement is even more accurate today than it was at the time.
Tax fraud is estimated at $311 billion this year, more than the entire budget
for Medicare and more than last years revenues at Walmart or General
Electric. Most cheaters go unpunished. Whats worse, the legal tax system is
rigged to favor rich people and large corporations at the expense of ordinary
citizens and small businesses. Even when everybody abides by the law,
middle-income households pay more taxes than rich ones. And politicians keep
handing out tax favors to their campaign contributors  at our expense.
A chorus of academics, journalists, and private citizens are warning that a tax
system favoring the rich fuels the growing concentration of wealth in America
 and therefore threatens our economic growth and even our democracy.
Middle class spending is the growth engine in a free market economy, and
when taxes rob the middle class in favor of the rich, the economy shuts down.
Huge fortunes also produce political power that is hard to control. Thats why
all modern democracies use their tax laws to prevent excessive concentration
of wealth. And thats why we need a fair taxes campaign in America.
In this election year, both candidates are certain to say a lot of things about
taxes. But neither of them is likely to talk about fraud, favoritism and abuse of
power  unless voters raise these issues and ask for reforms.
Who Pays Taxes?
The short answer is this: you and I pay the taxes that rich and powerful people
ought to pay, but dont.
In the year 2000  at the height of the last economic boom and before the
most recent round of tax cuts were enacted  IRS data shows that the richest
400 taxpayers paid 27% of their income in federal, state, and local taxes. On
average, these 400 taxpayers each had taxable income of $151 million. All
other taxpayers had average taxable income of only $34,600, and yet their tax
burden was 40%.2
Political candidates always focus on income taxes. But we have to look at all
taxes people pay in order to grasp how our tax system has been quietly
1 Leona Helmsley,New York Times, July 12, 1989. Quoted in the Barlett and Steele
book (see resources).
2 IRS Report, Individual Income Tax Returns: Selected Items for Taxpayers with the
Top 400 Adjusted Gross Income, 1992 to 2000.
Page 4
transferring the tax burden from the wealthiest households to the rest of us for
the last twenty years.
Top 400 Taxpayers All Other Taxpayers
Average Taxes Paid in 2000
as Percentage of Income
(Source: IRS Data)
Federal Income Social Security State/Local
27%
27%
40%
Figure 1: Richest Taxpayers Pay 33% Less Tax Than Average Households,
When All Federal. State, and Local Taxes Are Combined
Journalists Donald Barlett and James Steele point out that this inequity results
from a political system that has been put up for auction: Over the last three
decades, Americas elected officials have turned a reasonably fair tax code into
one crafted for the benefit of those who give the largest campaign
contributions, enjoy the greatest access, hire the most influential lobbyists, or
otherwise exercise power beyond that enjoyed by average citizens.3
Corporations have profited, too. In 1965, individual taxpayers paid 66% of all
US income taxes, and corporations paid about a third. But by 2, the
corporate share had dropped to 18%, just about half what it used to be.4
3 The Great American Tax Dodge, by Donald Barlett and James Steele, Little, Brown
and Company, 2000.
4 Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) www.oecd.org.
Publishes statistics for the 30 member nations.
Page 5
34%
66%
18%
82%
1965 2000
Corporate V Individual Share
of Total Income Taxes Paid
(Source: OECD Data)
Corporations Individuals
Figure 2: The Corporate Share of Taxes is Half What It Was 30 Years Ago
A recent Congressional study reported that 63% of US corporations paid no
income taxes at all in 2000.5 Six in ten American corporations reported no tax
liability for the five years from 1996 through 2, even though corporate
profits were growing at record-breaking levels during that period.
The Tax Code Feeds Income Inequities and Increases the
Problem of Concentrated Wealth
Not since 1929 have so few people controlled so much of the wealth in our
country. In his new book, New York Times reporter David Cay Johnston reports
that between 1970 and 2000 average income for the top 13,400 households in
America increased from $3.6 million to nearly $24 million. Thats a staggering
538% increase. At the same time, the average income for 90% of US
households actually fell from $27,060 to $27,035. These 13,400 households
account for just .001% of the population, according to Johnston. 6
Income distribution in the United States is the most unequal among all
developed nations, according to OECD data.
5 General Accounting Office (GAO) Report to Congress, February 2004, Comparison of
the Reported Tax Liabilities of Foreign and US-Controlled Corporations, 1996-2000.
6 Perfectly Legal: The Covert Campaign to Rig our Tax System to Benefit the Super
Richand Cheat Everybody Else, by David Cay Johnston, Penguin Books, 2004.
Income table on page 38.
Page 6
$27,035 $23,900,000
$3,600,000
$27,060
Income Growth 1970 to 2000
(Source: Johnston)
Top 13,400 Households Everyone Else
1970
2000
Figure 3: American Wealth is More Concentrated Than Ever Before
Prosperity that was supposed to trickle down has instead flowed straight
uphill. Between 1990 and 2, the average CEOs pay increased by 571%
and corporate profits grew by 93%, while workers pay barely stayed ahead of
inflation. 7
7 United for a Fair Economy is a Boston-based Nonprofit group that publishes a range
of economic data. This report is an analysis of the annual CEO surveys published by
Business Week magazines. www.ufenet.org
Page 7
CEO Pay, Corporate Profits,
Worker Pay, and Inflation
(Source: Business Week)
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
1990 1992 1994 1996 1998 2000
CEO Pay
Corporate
Profits
Worker
Pay
Inflation
Figure 4: CEO Pay Outstrips Profits and Worker Pay
Whats So Unfair About the Personal Income Tax?
Investors pay lower income taxes than workers. Roughly 85% of stock market
wealth is owned by 10% of American households and there is no logical reason
why income from those investments (called capital gains by the tax code)
should be taxed less than income from work. But the top tax rate on wages is
35% while the top tax rate on capital gains is only 15%. This rate structure
gives the richest households enormous advantages without producing any
obvious social benefit. If we reversed the favor  and let workers pay lower tax
rates than investors  then working families would have greater opportunity to
accumulate wealth.
Historians point out that more people moved up into the middle class during
the 1950s and 1960s  and American wealth was much less concentrated 
when the top income tax rate was 91%, impacting salaries and capital gains
equally.8 According to IRS data for 2, most American households earned
70% of their income from work and only 10% from capital gains. But in the
highest tax bracket, the situation is completely reversed.9
8 Barlett and Steele, page 263.
9 IRS Tax Statistics on the Top 400 Taxpayers,available at www.irs.gov
Page 8
72%
17%
10%
70%
Top 400 Taxpayers All Other Taxpayers
Percent of Total Income in 2000
From Capital Gains v Wages
(Source: IRS data)
Capital Gains Wages
Figure 5: A Lower Tax on Investment Income Favors the Wealthiest
Households Who Own Most of the Nations Investments
Eliminating the special rate for capital gains taxes would reverse a major
inequity in the current income tax. And we could reduce rampant underreporting
of capital gains income by instituting automatic withholding, just as
we do with salaries.10
The Estate Tax Increases Income Equality By Funding Public
Investments  But Gets A Death Sentence in Washington
The Federal Estate tax is the only tax that directly combats the problem of
excessive accumulation of private wealth. Public investments provide American
entrepreneurs with a literate work force, court-enforced property laws, and a
stable business environment, among many other benefits. The estate tax
recaptures some of those investments  and makes them available to future
generations. Oftentimes, the assets in an estate have never been taxed.
In 2, only 52,000 estates (out of over 2 million deaths that year) were
large enough to pay estate taxes. Even though the heirs of rich families kept
75% to 80% of their familys fortunes, the tax generated vast sums for the
government. According to the analysts at United for a Fair Economy, In 2000,
the estate tax alone raised more than double the total amount of federal
10 Barlett and Steele
Page 9
income taxes paid by the bottom half of American taxpayers.11 And yet the
tax is slated for extinction by President Bush.
Analysts across the political spectrum recommend keeping the estate tax. And
dozens of wealthy individuals, including Bill Gates Senior and Warren Buffett,
are actively working to reform but retain the estate tax. Gates, who is father
to the worlds wealthiest man, has recommended earmarking the proceeds for
public investments, like education, that create broad-based economic
opportunities.12 Buffett, who holds the worlds second-largest private fortune,
joined several hundred wealthy private citizens who publicly advocated against
the Bush program to eliminate estate taxes.
Excess Social Security Taxes Paid by Working Families Fund
Income Tax Cuts for Wealthy Households and Corporations
The government collects more Social Security taxes than it needs for current
benefits, and yet we face enormous shortfalls when the Baby Boomers retire.
David Cay Johnston reports:
From 1984 to 2002, the government collected $1.7 trillion more in
Social Security taxes than the agency paid out in benefits to retirees,
widows, orphans, and in disability benefits. Instead of investing that
surplus to pay for the looming retirement of baby boomers, as
promised, that money was used to pay the ordinary bills of the
government, making up for the taxes that were no longer being paid
by the rich because of the 1981 tax cuts created by Ronald Reagan.
The only way that the taxes Americans have paid in advance
for their Social Security benefits can be turned into retirement checks
is by a new round of taxes. Because their money is gone now,
Johnston says, people have lost not just what they paid, but the
opportunity to invest the money for themselves.13
Three quarters of US households pay more Social Security taxes than income
taxes. Employers deduct the tax straight out of each paycheck and send the
money directly to the Federal government. A middle-income household pays
9.6% of its income in Social Security taxes, while households in the top 1% of
income pay less than 2%.14
11 Winning Responses to Tough Tax Questions, by Marty Liebowitz, May 12, 2003
published at the website www.ufenet.org.
12 Wealth and Our Commonwealth: Why Americans Should Tax Accumulated Fortunes,
by William H. Gates Sr. and Chuck Collins, Beacon Press, 2003, page 137. Specifically,
they recommend linking estate tax revenues to college funding.
13 Johnston, page 118 and page 123
14 Congressional Budget Office, Effective Tax Rates.
Page 10
5%
8% 9%
10%
1%
2%
Lowest 20% Middle 20% Top 1%
Social Security Taxes, Effective Tax Rate
1980 and 2, by Income
(Source: Congressional Budget Office)
1980 2000
Figure 6: Low and Middle-Income Households Pay More Social Security than
Income Taxes, and A Bigger Income Share than Rich Households Pay.
Social Security tax rates have increased since 1980, while income tax rates
have been cut repeatedly.
During the last presidential campaign, both candidates promised not to spend
the Social Security surplus. And candidate Bush specifically promised not to
use the surplus to finance tax cuts. But as Johnston reports, thats just what
he did: In June 2001, President Bush signed his tax cut package that lowered
rates on the rich, eliminated the estate tax for one year, and gave more than
half of the $1.3 trillion tax cut to the richest 1% of taxpayers. It was a tax cut
that also promised years of budget deficits . . . and more raiding of Social
Security so that the middle class could subsidize the rich.15
The Social Security tax only applies to income up to $87,000 and people
earning above that ceiling get a break from paying the tax.
Refunding excess Social Security payments now will not repair the damages
already done. But we could fix the Social Security system by taxing all salaries
equally  even salaries over $87,000 that are currently exempt from the tax 
and by investing the funds in real assets, not government IOUs.
15 Johnston, page 127
Page 11
Cities, Counties and States Raise Taxes to Compensate for
Federal Tax Cuts
When Congress cuts Federal income and estate taxes it ends up sending less
money to the states  and each state has to make up the lost revenue
somehow. Most states have responded by increasing their sales and excise
taxes, or by cutting essential programs, or both. Many states have also cut
taxes for their best-off residents. As a result, people in every state are losing
libraries, childcare centers and fire stations, while paying higher bus fares,
bridge tolls and sales taxes.
The federal income tax, which made up 11% of GDP in 1965, now consumes
under 9% of the national income. Total taxes increased from 25% of GDP to
29% during those years, according to data from the Office of Management and
Budgets (OMB), but the burden has shifted from the national government to
the states.16
1965 2003
Federal and State Taxes Combined
as Percent of GDP
(Source: OMB Data)
Federal Taxes State Taxes
25% 29%
Figure 7: The Tax Burden Is Shifting From National to Local Governments
The Bush budget for 2005 cuts another $6 billion in federal support to states,
and yet public investment in education, job training, child care, the
16 Data comes from the Office of Management and Budgets (OMB) in the White House
available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/index.html, Table 15.1: Total
Government Receipts in Absolute Amounts and as Percentage of GDP: 1947-2002
Page 12
environment, energy, and research is already less than half what it was during
the 1960s and 1970s.
States rely on regressive taxes, like sales taxes, car taxes and property taxes
for their revenue. Because they impact everyone at the same rate, regardless
of ability to pay, these taxes take a bigger bite from modest incomes than
huge fortunes, even if the rich folks own very expensive property or buy more
expensive goods.
11%
10%
7%
Poorest
Households
(Bottom 20%)
In Between
(Middle 20%)
Richest
Households
(Top 1%)
Average State and Local Taxes in 2002
as a Percent of Household Income
(Source: ITEP Report)
Figure 8: State Taxes Put the Greatest Burden on The Poorest Households
Because state and local taxes are regressive, as one study recently reported,
only four states require their best-off citizens to pay as much of their incomes
in taxes as middle-income families have to pay.17 Therefore, when we shift
taxes from the national government to the states, we are once again shifting
the burden from wealthy people to poor and middle class people. Raising taxes
and collecting more revenue at the national level  and then passing the
resources back to the states  would greatly increase tax equity in America.
17 Who Pays? A Distributional Analysis of the Tax Systems in All 50 States, by the
Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, January 2003. Available from them through
the group Citizens for Tax Justice at www.ctj.org.
Page 13
Record-Breaking Tax Fraud Continues Without Any Significant
Political Response
If tax dodging were a business, it would be the nations largest corporation,
said journalists Barlett and Steele. The current $311 billion tax gap is the
equivalent of the total income taxes paid annually by all individuals and
families earning less than $75,000.18
If we simply collected the taxes cheaters are withholding from the system, we
would have enough to give a free college education to every child in America,
or to provide health insurance for small business employees, or to cut Social
Security taxes in half. It amounts to more money than we spent for Medicare
in 2003, almost as much as the Defense budget, and almost enough to pay
last years deficit.
Fraud v Other Expenses in 2003 (Billions)
(Source: Federal Budget, IRS Oversight Board)
$388
$375
$311
$246
Department of
Defense
Federal deficit
'Tax Gap'
(Fraud)
Total Medicare
Spending
Figure 9: Americans 'Spend' More On Tax Fraud Than We Spend on Medicare
Large corporations and rich individuals have greater incentive and many more
opportunities to cheat  by understating income or shipping money to foreign
tax havens, by inflating deductions or claiming expenses that never existed, or
by speculating in the stock market and then not reporting the gains. People
18 Barlett and Steele, page 13
Page 14
with a job or a pension have no similar opportunity to lie about income or
evade taxes.
Unfortunately, as their biggest donors turned into the biggest tax cheaters,
politicians have reacted by handcuffing the tax police. Congress has
consistently under-funded IRS enforcement efforts and computer upgrades
that would catch more tax dodgers.19
Congressional misdirection of IRS resources is even worse than their failure to
properly fund the agency. Statistics cited by Johnston show that the IRS
polices the poor more than the richeven though the rich have greater
opportunity and incentive to cheat20
2.13%
0.69%
Working Poor Affluent ($100,000+)
IRS Audits in 2001 By Taxpayer Income
(Source: Johnston)
Figure 10: The IRS Audits Poor People Three Times More Frequently Than
Rich Ones
Corporate tax dodgers get off easy, too: in 2002, the IRS assessed just 22
penalties against corporations, a decline of more than 99% from 1993 when
2,400 penalties were imposed. Audits of corporate returns fell sharply from 26
per 1000 returns in 1997 to just 7 per thousand returns in 2003.21
19 IRS Oversight Board, FY2005 Report.
20 Johnston, page 134.
21 National Profile and Enforcement Trends Over Time, by the Transactional Records
Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University. Available online at
http://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/newfindings/current/
Page 15
0
5
10
15
20
25
30
1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003
S1
IRS Audits Per 1000 Corporate Returns
(Source: TRAC Analysis of IRS Data)
Figure 11: The IRS Only Audits 7 Out Of 1000 Corporate Tax Returns
The independent IRS Oversight Board recommends beefing up the IRS
enforcement budget, targeting the biggest cheaters first (not the smaller
ones), and modernizing or automating more of the IRS enforcement systems.
Others have also suggested de-criminalizing tax fraud, arguing that we can
catch more people  and recapture more revenue  if the penalty is a fine
instead of jail.22
Corporate Tax Incentives Fail to Produce the Promised Economic
Benefits
Corporate tax incentives have been used in the past to encourage socially
valuable behavior, like locating a factory in an inner city, for example, or
cleaning up pollution levels. But with corporate taxes already at their lowest
levels in history, there is very little room left for further incentives. In 2000,
only 8% (of more than 27 million American businesses that filed tax returns)
were subject to the corporate income tax.
Current tax law favors the wrong kind of corporate behavior. Global companies
can park assets overseas, for example, and evade taxes that smaller, local
companies still have to pay. Corporations can also justify excessive CEO
compensation and executive perks (like private jets) because the tax code
22 Barlett and Steele.
Page 16
makes those expenses tax deductible. Economists argue that the current tax
code encourages waste and fraudulent accounting.
Some claim that expensive US income taxes give advantages to foreign
corporations who pay less tax in their home countries, but the evidence does
not support this claim. Total federal and state corporate income taxes in the
US were less than the average for other developed countries.23
16%
9% 9%
10%
1965 2000
Corporate Taxes: US and Foreign
1965 v 2000
(Source: OECD data)
USA Others
Figure 12: US Corporations Pay the Lowest Income Taxes in The World
Corporate taxes that were common in earlier generations have quietly dropped
from public discussion. War profits taxes, for example, were once widely used
to offset the costs of war, to share the sacrifices fairly among foot soldiers and
financiers, and to prevent outright profiteering. 24 A recent issue of Newsweek
magazine called for reinstituting war taxes to finance the war on terror.25
Special windfall profit taxes were levied against companies in the past when an
unfair economic advantage resulted from unusual circumstances. For instance,
when the Arab oil cartel (OPEC) hiked the world oil prices in 1973, the US
government initially responded by setting price controls on American crude oil,
23 OECD annual report on taxes as a percentage of GDP.
24 Warhogs: A history of War Profits in America, by Stuart Brandes, University Press of
Kentucky, 1997
25 Six Fixes for the Tax Mess, by Allan Sloan, Newsweek April 12, 2004.
Page 17
but then switched to a windfall profits tax. The proceeds were earmarked for
energy conservation research.
Both candidates talk about corporate tax incentives, but before we consider
additional tax breaks for corporations, we should evaluate the effectiveness of
existing programs. Are we keeping jobs where we want them? Are we
encouraging openness with shareholders and employees? Are we rewarding
efficiency?
Many analysts recommend reducing corporate tax evasion, closing loopholes,
and increasing economic efficiency by making corporations pay taxes on the
income they report to stockholders, not a separate figure cooked up for the
IRS.26 Another recommendation: boost IRS audit rates for companies that use
aggressive tax avoidance tactics.27
Practical Solutions to the Tax-Based Class War
Warren Buffett has famously said, if there is a class war in America, my side
is winning. In his annual letter to shareholders this year, the billionaire
investment guru urged corporations to pony up on taxes, saying, "we hope our
[Berkshire Hathaway corporate income] taxes continue to rise in the futureit
will mean we are prosperingbut we also hope that the rest of corporate
America antes up along with us.
Another voice from the billionaire class, Bill Gates Senior, reminds us that
public investments in our courts, schools, transit systems, public utilities, and
research programs have pushed the United States to the top of the worlds
economy. No other investment scheme in the history of the world has been so
successful, says Gates. As taxpayers, we should take pride in the fact that the
US government is the worlds largest venture capitalist.28
We can end the apparent abuse of economic power and political influence that
has led us where we are today, and get the economy growing, by revamping
our tax laws and boosting public investment with the proceeds. Beyond the
recommendations already offered, here are three key ways we can accomplish
this goal:
ß Increase Federal investments in the states, by providing funds for
universal public pre-school, for example, or by offering low-cost health
insurance for small businesses.
26 The Great American Tax Dodge, by Donald L. Barlett and James B. Steele, Little,
Brown and Company, 2000. And also David Cay Johnston.
27 IRS Oversight Board, FY2005 Budget Report, March 2004.
28 Wealth and Our Commonwealth: Why Americans Should Tax Accumulated Fortunes,
by William H. Gates Sr. and Chuck Collins, Beacon Press, 2003.
Page 18
ß Reinstate War and Windfall Profits taxes in selected circumstances and
invest the proceeds in an all-out public effort to reduce American
dependence on foreign oil.
ß Sunshine the tax code so that politicians must name the beneficiaries
from tax legislation they propose, and disclose donations received from
them.
Previous generations of Americans addressed the political problem of
concentrated wealth and power by actively breaking up monopolies, jailing
people who put undue pressure on politicians, and helping disenfranchised
people win the right to vote. This generation must find solutions appropriate to
our own times.
References and Resources
The Tax Policy Center (www.taxpolicycenter.org) provides a wealth of tax statistics
and analysis.
The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (www.cbpp.org) goes beyond taxes to look
at issues of budget priorities and economic development.
Citizens for Tax Justice (www.ctj.org) advocates for poor and middle-income families.
Responsible Wealth (www.responsiblewealth.org) is an advocacy organization headed
by Bill Gates Senior and Chuck Collins.
United for a Fair Economy (www.ufenet.org) is a group working to preserve democracy
from the corrupting influences of concentrated wealth.
Perfectly Legal: The Covert Campaign to Rig our Tax System to Benefit the Super
Richand Cheat Everybody Else, by David Cay Johnston, Penguin Books, 2004.
Wealth and Our Commonwealth: Why Americans Should Tax Accumulated Fortunes,
by William H. Gates Sr. and Chuck Collins, Beacon Press, 2003.
America: Who Really Pays the Taxes, by Donald L. Barlett and James B. Steele, Simon
and Schuster, 1994.
Fuzzy Math: The Essential Guide to the Bush Tax Plan, by Paul Krugman, W.W. Norton
Company, 2001.
The Great American Tax Dodge: How Spiraling Fraud and Avoidance are Killing
Fairness, Destroying the Income Tax and Costing You, by Donald L. Barlett and James
B. Steele, Little Brown, 2000.
Warhogs: A history of War Profits in America, by Stuart Brandes, University Press of
Kentucky, 1997.
Career Corrections

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« Reply #132 on: January 19, 2006, 03:15:27 PM »
Quote
You keep posting how hard you work and little you have and poor lonesome you. So you must want something from us. That isn't a refutation of the basic point of the thread.  Actually its a confirmation of it.
Plus the fact that you actually took the time to map out how far from where I work Cleveland is, which is not only silly, but downright creepy.

Actually, with the exception of your posts, I'm enjoying the conversation, on all sides. This may come as a shock to you, but people can disagree and still make intelligent, respectful posts to each other.

telewinz

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« Reply #133 on: January 19, 2006, 03:19:49 PM »
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-CJSpoor.htm

http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Law/LegalProfession/?view=usa&ci=0195143477

America is overlawyered and underrepresented: there is too much law for those who can afford it and too little for everyone else. Although indigent defendants are entitled to legal representation, what satisfies that standard is an affront to the civilized world, and especially shameful for a nation that considers itself a world leader in human rights. Convictions are regularly upheld when lawyers are asleep, on drugs, mentally incapacitated, or even parking their car during the prosecution's case. The justice system is not only inaccessible for the poor; it is increasingly out of reach for the American middle class as well. Rhode's analysis also includes on the first comprehensive national study of lawyers' charitable pro bono work ever conducted, encompassing some 3,000 attorneys. The average lawyer, she finds, contributes less than half an hour a week and fifty cents a day in support of representation for those who cannot afford it.

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/newsreleases/99in001?opendocument

Washington, DC, February 4, 1999 - Americas criminal justice system is beset with a fatal flaw: funding for the defense of the indigent accused is so woefully inadequate that the adversary system  indeed the justice system itself  is breaking down. As a result, justice has become an empty promise for all but the most wealthy in America.  Prisons Packed With the Poor
Crime rates continue to decline, yet Americas jails and prisons proliferate, now housing over 1.8 million inmates  an incarceration rate many times greater than any other civilized country.
Public funding for Americas human warehouses  and for police and prosecutors  escalates every year, fed by lofty rhetoric by politicians about the war on crime. But resources necessary for the defense of poor people accused of crime (up to 90% of the cases) fall alarmingly below the minimum necessary for our adversary system to function properly. Despite the Sixth Amendment right to counsel mandated by the Supreme Court almost 36 years ago, poor people in America simply do not receive the competent representation enjoyed by people of means.
Every day, in courthouses across America, clients of overworked and underpaid defense lawyers  including public defenders with staggering caseloads  are shunted off to prisons. Without adequate funding for experts and investigation, defenders are no match for well-funded prosecutors. It should not be surprising then, that many of Americas prisoners  including some on death row  actually turn out to be innocent. Many more are grossly overcharged, serving lengthy sentences disproportionate to their past misdeeds and future dangerousness.
In Virginia, lawyers appointed in serious felony cases  with up to life in prison at stake  are paid not one cent more than $845, no matter how complex and time-consuming the case may be. With office overhead typically costing more than $50 per hour, the Virginia lawyer who spends the time necessary for a competent defense of an appointed client will quickly lose money. And in misdemeanor cases  with up to a year in jail at risk  the maximum pay for the appointed lawyer is $100 (total, not per hour). A recent effort to modestly raise the misdemeanor limit to $120 in 1999, supported by the Virginia Supreme Court, was deleted from the Governors budget  despite Virginias surplus of nearly $1 billion.
Other jurisdictions are similarly miserly in providing poor people with representation when the state seeks to their forfeit life and liberty. Oklahoma pays an average of less than $150 (down from $200 in 1995)  and as low as $85  for noncapital representation. Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Tennessee and other Southern states average less than $300 per case; and the rest of the country is not much higher. Hundreds of death row inmates, notably in Texas and Florida, have no lawyer at all due to lack of funding. In Alabama and Iowa, the legislatures were recently persuaded to increase funding for defense, only to have incumbent governors veto the reforms.
Career Corrections

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« Reply #134 on: January 19, 2006, 03:37:16 PM »
Quote from: Barbara
Actually, with the exception of your posts, I'm enjoying the conversation, on all sides. This may come as a shock to you, but people can disagree and still make intelligent, respectful posts to each other.
I don't think the Rabbi knows how arrogant and condescending he seems to everyone. But if he does know, he should be ashamed of himself, especially with having chosen a title such as "Rabbi".

Art Eatman

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« Reply #135 on: January 19, 2006, 03:54:30 PM »
Funny-odd.  I haven't noticed the Rabbi as being arrogant and condescending...

Smiley, Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

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« Reply #136 on: January 19, 2006, 04:10:40 PM »
Huh.

Btw..do you have an evidence that Jesse Jackson is a financial success? I tend to doubt he his, although I could be wrong.

Personally, I'd prefer to be a moral sucess than a financial success, but I'd be surprised if Jesse pulled off either.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #137 on: January 19, 2006, 05:16:02 PM »
Quote from: Barbara
Quote
You keep posting how hard you work and little you have and poor lonesome you. So you must want something from us. That isn't a refutation of the basic point of the thread.  Actually its a confirmation of it.
Plus the fact that you actually took the time to map out how far from where I work Cleveland is, which is not only silly, but downright creepy.

Actually, with the exception of your posts, I'm enjoying the conversation, on all sides. This may come as a shock to you, but people can disagree and still make intelligent, respectful posts to each other.
Actually that "something" was sympathy/admiration/support/agreement.  I think your bias is showing.  Or maybe you are secretly hoping for offers of financial support from board members.  

Quote from: Daniel Flory
I don't think the Rabbi knows how arrogant and condescending he seems to everyone. But if he does know, he should be ashamed of himself, especially with having chosen a title such as "Rabbi".
Well, I thought about "Daniel Flory" but decided I would have no credibility.
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« Reply #138 on: January 19, 2006, 05:20:08 PM »
Quote from: Barbara
Huh.

Btw..do you have an evidence that Jesse Jackson is a financial success? I tend to doubt he his, although I could be wrong.

Personally, I'd prefer to be a moral sucess than a financial success, but I'd be surprised if Jesse pulled off either.
http://www.nlpc.org/gip/cef-e/e-h.htm

With an income of over $300k a year he is some kind of success.  I can't say I admire him much, although you have to give credit to someone who has gotten as far as he has by doing not very much.
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brimic

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« Reply #139 on: January 19, 2006, 06:47:25 PM »
Quote
Btw..do you have an evidence that Jesse Jackson is a financial success? I tend to doubt he his, although I could be wrong.

Personally, I'd prefer to be a moral sucess than a financial success, but I'd be surprised if Jesse pulled off either.
Jesse jackson is a crook and should be behind bars. He makes his money through racial extortion. If he sees something in a sucessful business that he doesn't like such as an underrepresentation of blacks, he creates a media storm out of it and threatens to boycott and escalate his shrillness unless of course the evil corporation donates a million dollars to the rainbow coalition as pennace.  Anheiser Busch was even extorted into selling one of its most lucrative distributorships to jackson's sons for a fraction of what it was worth.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

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« Reply #140 on: January 20, 2006, 03:36:52 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
Funny-odd.  I haven't noticed the Rabbi as being arrogant and condescending...

Smiley, Art
Art,

Just two examples would be completely belittling Barbara's situation in this thread and calling me a "fool" in another thread.

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« Reply #141 on: January 20, 2006, 03:39:58 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Well, I thought about "Daniel Flory" but decided I would have no credibility.
If you were in a John Wayne movie, I could see you getting backhanded by the Duke at some point. At least I have the confidence to use my own name online in a normally friendly discussion forum.

Art Eatman

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« Reply #142 on: January 20, 2006, 05:33:47 AM »
Blackburn, I fully agree with your comment about "wealth".  That's why I made the comment about debt as a tool, not as a support of a lifestyle.  I guess most of us who started life during the Great Depression feel that way.

Debt is like fire:  Used wisely, it's a friend.  Used foolishly, it can be devastating.

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

The Rabbi

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« Reply #143 on: January 20, 2006, 05:42:05 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
Blackburn, I fully agree with your comment about "wealth".  That's why I made the comment about debt as a tool, not as a support of a lifestyle.  I guess most of us who started life during the Great Depression feel that way.

Debt is like fire:  Used wisely, it's a friend.  Used foolishly, it can be devastating.

Art
Art, you are absolutely right.  Some people swear off debt like drugs or something.  But that is also no approach.
Kiyosaki makes an interesting observation: when you go to buy some toy or other, like a car or motorcycle, you just fill out the form.  When you go to buy something serious, like business equipment or rental property, the bank makes you fill out an asset and liability statement.  That statement is the only "report card" the bank is interested in.  So a good rule of thumb is, if they ask for asset/liability statement, it is probably a wortthwhile debt.

Quote
f you were in a John Wayne movie, I could see you getting backhanded by the Duke at some point.
Interesting fantasy.
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Art Eatman

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« Reply #144 on: January 20, 2006, 05:42:18 AM »
Dan, I've sorta made it a rule to cut slack in Internet stuff.  I try to follow the bit about "It's not your duty to understand me; it's my duty to make myself understood."--which is a two-way street, of course.  But regardless of how much I may try, I don't figure I see perfection even when I shave. Smiley

Stuff that's typed doesn''t always come out exactly as intended.   And, no facial expressions or body language.  So, somebody reads an idea they think is foolish, and it gets typed up as "You're a fool." and all that sort of stuff.

I don't pay a lot of attention to it except when moderating over at THR's L&P.  It's rarely a problem in the Hunt or Rifle forums there or at TFL.

Art
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« Reply #145 on: January 20, 2006, 09:46:53 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
Dan, I've sorta made it a rule to cut slack in Internet stuff.  I try to follow the bit about "It's not your duty to understand me; it's my duty to make myself understood."--which is a two-way street, of course.  But regardless of how much I may try, I don't figure I see perfection even when I shave. Smiley

Stuff that's typed doesn''t always come out exactly as intended.   And, no facial expressions or body language.  So, somebody reads an idea they think is foolish, and it gets typed up as "You're a fool." and all that sort of stuff.

I don't pay a lot of attention to it except when moderating over at THR's L&P.  It's rarely a problem in the Hunt or Rifle forums there or at TFL.

Art
Art,

I completely agree. I don't get too fired up but in another thread where someone refered to me as an "expert" (which I am far from...especially since I'm 24 years old), and the Rabbi replied "ROFL" which of course means "rolling on the floor laughing" I'm inclined to take personal offense. For example, I work in commercial banking and most of our portfolio consists of commerical real estate; I have no desire to post anything that I know about RE since it could turn into a peeing contest with the Rabbi. I've already received e-mails from people saying that he isn't worth my time, but unfortunately, APS doesn't have an ignore button.

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« Reply #146 on: January 20, 2006, 09:47:40 AM »
Telewinz,
The text you quoted is indecipherable. But my point isnt that you cut and pasted incorrectly, its that the sources you quote are either flat out wrong or misleading you in some way. When I said look it up, I was hoping you would look up the numbers, not parrot back statements that the tax system favors the rich. I dont have the time today, but I will look on the IRS website and find for you how much more the rich pay than the poor. Will that prove to your satisfaction that the statement Even when everybody abides by the law, middle-income households pay more taxes than rich ones is not only wrong, but totally wrong?
Sent from a stone age computer via an ordinary keyboard.

Brad Johnson

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« Reply #147 on: January 20, 2006, 10:14:39 AM »
To save Telewinz the effort...

Here, a direct link to the Tax Foundation's analysis of the last full tax return year (2003).

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html

According to the breakdown:

Top 1% of wage earners (those with incomes of $295,495 or higher) fund 24.31% of the total taxes paid. Adjusted for average income, the effective rate for this group of taxpayers is 34.27%.

Top 25% of wage earners (those with incomes of $57,343 or higher) fund 83.88% of the total taxes paid. Adjusted for average income, the effective rate for this group of taxpayers is 15.38%

Bottom 50% of wage earners (those with incomes lower than $29,019) fund a mere 3.46% of the total taxes paid. Adjusted for average income, the effective rate for this group of taxpayers is 2.95%

Now what was that about the 'poor' getting the shaft and the 'rich' not paying their fair share?

Brad
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« Reply #148 on: January 20, 2006, 11:25:00 AM »
Quote
I have no desire to post anything that I know about RE
Thanks, Brad.  I didnt realize the "top 25%" kicked in at a lousy $57k.  I will be in that category this year.
Which brings another good point.  Many people, even in the top 1%, are there for one year only.  Take my case: I have a condo I bought about 4 years ago and sold it for a profit of about $25-30k, given depreciation and all.  That will shove me into the top 25% of earners, "The Wealthy".  But I don't do that every year (unfortunately).  So next year I will be hanging with the middle class again.
The categories of "wealthy" and "poor" are not static.  People in either one are not likely to be there 5 years from now.
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« Reply #149 on: January 20, 2006, 12:03:16 PM »
I just looked back at the above post and my terminology is a little misleading. The tax foundation didn't arbitrarily assign income levels for their calculations. The income level split points are determined as percentages of total returns and taxes paid. The split points for income levels are dynamic and change every year.

Brad
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