Author Topic: Rules of engagement?  (Read 5976 times)

ksnecktieman

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Rules of engagement?
« on: March 06, 2010, 09:13:52 AM »
   An editorial in the Washinton Times today says that our soldiers are not allowed to shoot afghans, unless they are being actively fired on. What I read is similar to "if you come home and interrupt a burgler you are not allowed to shoot if he leaves."  Can someone do a fact check on this and see if it is really true?

quote from the Times
The rules of engagement are probably the most restrictive ever seen for a war of this nature. NATO forces cannot fire on suspected Taliban fighters unless they are clearly visible, armed and posing a direct threat. Buildings suspected of containing insurgents cannot be targeted unless it is certain that civilians are not also present. Air strikes and night raids are limited, and prisoners have to be released or transferred within four days, making for a 96-hour catch-and-release program.

In Marjah, the enemy quickly adapted to the rules, which led to bizarre circumstances such as Taliban fighters throwing down their weapons when they were out of ammunition and taunting coalition troops with impunity or walking in plain view with women behind them carrying their weapons like caddies.
End quote

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/06/ready-aim-hold-your-fire/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_must-read-stories-today

   This is not war. This is a political fantasy. What is next, a "Barney Fife" program where each soldier only gets one bullet? If this is all we will allow our soldiers to do we should leave the area and let them kill each other, as they have for many years.

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,993
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2010, 09:33:12 AM »
It's been almost a year since I left the AOR, and that sounds to me like a purposly restrictivr reading of the ROE's.

That's close to what they briefed us on except the times leaves out the whole second part which says roughly: "remember however, you can always defend yourself. if you're taking fire, return it and kill the folks shooting at you.  PS don't blow up a mosque."

Offensive operations' rules are a lot more restrictive on what you can and can't blow up.  They require much more restrictive PID, and more levels of approval for any buiding destruction.

Which actually makes a little sense.  We are trying to get the civilians to like us, so making absolutly sure the folks we're killing are actually bad guys, and not folks in the wrong place at the wrong time is a good idea.

Now like I said it's been a little since I was there, so ROE's could have changed, but run down the list of things they list from an enemy propaganda perspective.

Quote
Buildings suspected of containing insurgents cannot be targeted unless it is certain that civilians are not also present.
Mess that one up, and the headline in Kabul is "US bombs Day Care, kills 45 children.  Insurgent in the basement escapes"

Quote
Taliban fighters throwing down their weapons when they were out of ammunition and taunting coalition troops
US executes unarmed boy because he says: Yankee go Home!!"

Quote
walking in plain view with women behind them carrying their weapons like caddies
"US guns down young wife while unarmed husband watches in horror"

Now I'm a soldier, so if the civi leadership wants us to go turn Afghanistan into smoking rubble and leave it incapable of projecting terrorists past Pakistan, we can, and happily will do that.  It'd be easier.  But if you guys want us to leave a semi functioning country then we are going to have to leave folks there that could be terrorists, so it'd be better if they liked us rather then hated us.  The ROE's I saw were there to propigate that end.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,702
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2010, 09:35:20 AM »
Maybe that's why we haven't won yet . . .  =(
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2010, 10:38:50 AM »
I read something similar recently. A soldier complained that the enemy would shoot at our troops, then drop their weapons and come out of their hiding places, and our troops couldn't fire on them.

Dunno if it's true or not.

ksnecktieman

  • New Member
  • Posts: 16
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2010, 10:48:21 AM »
Any fact, with the right slant can be made to look good or bad, it is called propaganda.

   If this is the rules we are going to play by maybe we need to rotate our forces in afghanistan? We should withdraw the United States Army, and send in the United States Political Corp.

  I should have included this in the copy and paste in my first post, QUOTE

If World War II had been fought with similar rules, the battles would still be raging. Paradoxically, America's most successful post-conflict reconstructions were in Germany and Japan, where enemy-occupied towns like Marjah were flattened without a second thought.
end quote

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2010, 10:50:19 AM »
Quote
What I read is similar to "if you come home and interrupt a burgler you are not allowed to shoot if he leaves."

Except we are the ones in their house ...  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Phantom Warrior

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2010, 12:38:15 PM »
  If this is the rules we are going to play by maybe we need to rotate our forces in afghanistan? We should withdraw the United States Army, and send in the United States Political Corp.

If World War II had been fought with similar rules, the battles would still be raging. Paradoxically, America's most successful post-conflict reconstructions were in Germany and Japan, where enemy-occupied towns like Marjah were flattened without a second thought.

People need to stop thinking of this war in terms of WWII.  In WWII we were fighting nation states with a government that we could compel into surrendering by taking their capital or dropping a nuke on them.  The current conflict is mostly about counter-insurgency.  We are fighting a shifting mix of terrorists, criminals, foreign fighters, local dissidents, and people that just don't want us in their  country anymore.  There is no capital for us to seize or head of state for us to force to surrender.

Think of Iraq/Afghanistan like the War on Crime.  How do we fight crime?  If we let the police drop 2000 pound bombs in local neighborhoods and shoot up everything that moves no one would help the police with anything.  Instead police rely on patrols, engagement of the locals, and targeted raids of bad guys.  Combined with community programs and economic development to help get people away from crime and into functioning, law abiding lives.  The principles in a counter-insurgency are somewhat similar.  


Don't think that I support us being in Iraq/Afghanistan any longer.  We've done what we can and more.  Unless we are willing to continue pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into those conflicts for decades ultimately it will be up to the people themselves to fix their problems.  But this concept that if we just turned our Soldiers loose with orders to shoot to kill would fix everything is completely wrong.  Ideally we would send USAID and police over there.  But the military is the only entity with the ability to deploy itself, supply itself, and defend itself in a hostile environment far away from the U.S.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 01:25:23 PM by Phantom Warrior »

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2010, 03:41:18 PM »
Restrictive or free ROE, we're trying to civilize some stone-age cultures in Afghanistan.  I think the ROE is almost incidental to the difficulty relative to the primitive state of the locals.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Grandpa Shooter

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,079
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2010, 07:10:05 PM »
Those were essentially the rules while Paul was there.  They have cut back drastically on night patrols to avoid A. losing more of our people needlessly and B. Killing more civilians needlessly.  Please remember we are not "at war" in Iraq or A'stan.  They are "operations" and are conducted very differently than an actual war would be.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,347
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2010, 09:14:41 PM »
When I was in Vietnam, Camp Enari (4th Infantry Division's base camp in the central highlands) was shelled by mortar fire at night on a pretty regular basis. We were not allowed to return fire because the VC had the mortars set up in a rubber plantation that belonged to Michelin, and the politicians didn't want to have France get mad at us for blowing up Michelin's rubber trees.

At least, that's what the scuttlebutt was around the Division, and 40+ years later I haven't yet heard anyone refute it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2010, 09:24:00 PM »
Maybe that's why we haven't won yet . . .  =(

No, it is not.   If you were familiar with the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, you would realize not only did they lack any ROE's, but any shred of basic humanity.  The list of atrocities committed by the Soviet Union defy the imagination of any American.  They start at intentionally and systematically mutilating children, and only get worse. 

And the Soviets lost. 

Anyone who thinks "we'd win, if we just didn't have to follow pesky rules" is provably wrong. 

Granted, the converse is not provably correct yet.  We may or may not win regardless of any particular strategy, let alone ROE.  I count it as a victory if we emerge from Afghanistan with a relatively intact military.  Few others have managed that much.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2010, 09:43:56 PM »
To add to what Revdisk said:

The official Soviet Officer's manuals recommend napalm and carpet-bombings as the lowest grade of urban warfare. Unofficially, torture (people drawn and quartered), rape and executions (not always in that order), continue to be practiced by the Russian Army as a tactic. Even official 'patriotic' publications by the Russians describe firing FAEs into a village until 'the streets were piled with the dead'.  Unofficial sources go far, far worse.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2010, 09:58:07 PM »
To add to what Revdisk said:

The official Soviet Officer's manuals recommend napalm and carpet-bombings as the lowest grade of urban warfare. Unofficially, torture (people drawn and quartered), rape and executions (not always in that order), continue to be practiced by the Russian Army as a tactic. Even official 'patriotic' publications by the Russians describe firing FAEs into a village until 'the streets were piled with the dead'.  Unofficial sources go far, far worse.

Obviously, MB is aware of this as he translated the bloody manual.

The Soviet Union had no humanity.  Their own training manuals detailed nuking a city and driving their own troops through the blast zone as part of their MOUT doctrine.  Not as some weird last ditch hail mary or whatnot, but as a standard training exercise. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2010, 10:08:29 PM »
Wrong.

The manual calls for nuking a city block with a tacnuke, bombing and shelling the blast zone for 40 minutes, then driving troops through the blast zone while using napalm and artillery for close support..

No. I am not joking.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2010, 10:15:05 PM »
The manual calls for nuking a city block with a tacnuke, bombing and shelling the blast zone for 40 minutes, then driving troops through the blast zone while using napalm and artillery for close support..

No. I am not joking.

Well...  I'll say this much.  I hate communism with all of the rage and fury in my heart.  But at least they have a proper appreciation for "supporting fire".

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2010, 10:50:04 PM »
Well...  I'll say this much.  I hate communism with all of the rage and fury in my heart.  But at least they have a proper appreciation for "supporting fire".
It might be because I've had a bottle of Burgundy plus a couple glasses of rum.  Or it might be because I'm a former artilleryman, but that was pretty friggin funny.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,702
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2010, 10:55:39 PM »
Anyone who thinks "we'd win, if we just didn't have to follow pesky rules" is provably wrong.
Ditto for those who support following the "pesky" rules that are providing the Taliban with a daily source of amusement.

Maybe there's a sensible middle ground between the pro-Taliban ROEs we're laboring under and the boobytrap toys/maim children methods of the Soviets . . . Step 1 is to either make the sandbox entirely "off limits" to the JAG corps . . . or embed JAG brass with the front line units that see the most action. (Point vehicle in convoys, of course.)
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2010, 11:16:34 PM »
It might be because I've had a bottle of Burgundy plus a couple glasses of rum.  Or it might be because I'm a former artilleryman, but that was pretty friggin funny.

Sure, it is horrible and such to do all of that...

But as a former artilleryman myself...   I got slightly misty eyed at the thought of watching all of that outbound ordinance.  Only thing better would be 280mm arty and nuke rounds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gy_krPau8
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Phantom Warrior

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2010, 11:17:35 PM »
Maybe there's a sensible middle ground between the pro-Taliban ROEs we're laboring under and the boobytrap toys/maim children methods of the Soviets . . . Step 1 is to either make the sandbox entirely "off limits" to the JAG corps . . . or embed JAG brass with the front line units that see the most action. (Point vehicle in convoys, of course.)

You realize that JAG doesn't set the ROE, right?  They advise the commander and the commander decides what the ROE should be.  If GEN McCrystal wanted to make the ROE "kill them all and let God sort them out", he could.  Since he didn't, maybe he's trying to convince the Afghan people we are there to help them, not slaughter them.  *insert the second paragraph of my earlier post here*

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2010, 11:31:51 PM »
You realize that JAG doesn't set the ROE, right?  They advise the commander and the commander decides what the ROE should be.  If GEN McCrystal wanted to make the ROE "kill them all and let God sort them out", he could.  Since he didn't, maybe he's trying to convince the Afghan people we are there to help them, not slaughter them.  *insert the second paragraph of my earlier post here*

Shhh...

You'll disturb the whole "we could lick 'em if one arm weren't tied behind our back by the REMF's" vibe.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2010, 11:33:27 PM »
Sure, it is horrible and such to do all of that...

But as a former artilleryman myself...   I got slightly misty eyed at the thought of watching all of that outbound ordinance.  Only thing better would be 280mm arty and nuke rounds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6gy_krPau8
You take it however you want to take it. 
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,702
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2010, 08:13:54 AM »
You realize that JAG doesn't set the ROE, right?  They advise the commander and the commander decides what the ROE should be.  If GEN McCrystal wanted to make the ROE "kill them all and let God sort them out", he could.  Since he didn't, maybe he's trying to convince the Afghan people we are there to help them, not slaughter them.  *insert the second paragraph of my earlier post here*
But it's the JAG corps that prosecutes soldiers for violating protocol, right? (There have been more than a few stories about baseless prosecutions because soldiers shot back too much . . . and isn't there one going on now because some SEALS allegedly gave a bad guy a bloody lip?) And as for ". . . trying to convince the Afghan people we are there to help them . . . "  yeah, that's why we've finally won after over 8 bleeping years . . . oh, wait . . .  ;/

Like I wrote earlier - we don't have to start booby trapping toys like the Soviets, or adopt a ""kill them all and let God sort them out" policy (which Congress/Obama  wouldn't let McChrystal do anyway, contrary to your assertion) but maybe our pro-Taliban ROEs are TOO restrictive, and some modification is in order.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2010, 08:33:16 AM »
the prosecution of those 3 seals makes even some of the liberal college kids say big deal.  the person who decided to press the case will be famous for that one
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Phantom Warrior

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 926
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2010, 08:30:17 PM »
But it's the JAG corps that prosecutes soldiers for violating protocol, right? (There have been more than a few stories about baseless prosecutions because soldiers shot back too much . . . and isn't there one going on now because some SEALS allegedly gave a bad guy a bloody lip?)
JAG's job is to handle the prosecution for violations of the policy that the commander sets.  Blaming JAG for prosecutions is like blaming the police for speeding laws.

And as for ". . . trying to convince the Afghan people we are there to help them . . . "  yeah, that's why we've finally won after over 8 bleeping years . . . oh, wait . . .  ;/
The reason we haven't "won" yet is because we are fighting a ridiculous counterinsurgency that can and probably will go on forever.  Not for lack of firepower.  We can't even find all the bad guys and there are new and different ones every day.  Going back to my earlier analogy, does anyone think crime would go away if we gave the police permission to kill every criminal they found?  Like jfruser said, a lot of our problems have more to do with the fact that we are trying to import civilization, a strong central government, and Western values to illiterate, rural Afghan tribesmen.


Like I wrote earlier - we don't have to start booby trapping toys like the Soviets, or adopt a ""kill them all and let God sort them out" policy (which Congress/Obama  wouldn't let McChrystal do anyway, contrary to your assertion) but maybe our pro-Taliban ROEs are TOO restrictive, and some modification is in order.
This is my last try.  It is not pro-Taliban.  It is pro-don't-piss-the-Afghan-people-off-so-they-hate-and-mistrust-us-even-more-than-they-already-do.  To succeed in a counterinsurgency you have to get the people to like and trust you so they will stop trying to kill you and start telling you about the bad guys that still are.


RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Rules of engagement?
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2010, 08:40:56 PM »
This is my last try.  It is not pro-Taliban.  It is pro-don't-piss-the-Afghan-people-off-so-they-hate-and-mistrust-us-even-more-than-they-already-do.  To succeed in a counterinsurgency you have to get the people to like and trust you so they will stop trying to kill you and start telling you about the bad guys that still are.

Dude, you just have to accept not everyone wants to actually win a war.  They want to fight the war they imagine or want, not what is the reality on the ground.  Hell, that is more than half of the current Generals and Admirals.  They want to fight the Nazis, commies or ChiComs.  Not deal with the immensely more difficult counterinsurgency warfare. 

To be fair...  They can't get excellent paying jobs post-retirement from counterinsurgency.  They can get excellent jobs lobbying for new fighters, ships, and other multi-billion dollar weapon systems.  And besides, said fighters, ships, etc are a lot sexier and career rewarding than teaching illiterate or semi-literate hillbillies to be soldiers or form a country.

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.