Obesity

[roo_ster]

As for  BMI:
Back in the Marine Corps, the body builders were often on weight-waivers. It was idiotic that someone who was clearly physically fit, could always pass a PFT, and could bench press a small car had to go yearly for physical waivers.  I knew a few guys that had to have their BDU's tailored to fit their guns....and yet if you looked in thier SRB you'd just see 'weight waiver'.     BMI is useless in my book unless you apply it directly to each and every person's individual traits and physique.

I had a similar problem in the Rangers, but no waiver for jfruser(1).  I am a broad, heavily-built man to begin with.  At 6' and 200lbs, I look (in the words of my wife) like a "bone."  I put on another 25lbs(2) of muscle, got "tape tested," and was counseled on how I was "overweight."  This was directly after a ruck march during which I drove everybody into the ground with my pace and I was able to tote more than anyone in the unit.

I just had to get so effing lean at 225lbs, I tested at ~5% using the skinfold method at the local Gold's Gym.  At 5% skinfold body fat, I was barely under the "tape test" limit (neck & hip circumference and height).

I knew several guys who used pharmaceuticals to aid their efforts, but I shied aways from them.  Pretty damn annoying when one of those guys who was juicing is in the room while you're getting crap for being "overweight."


(1) My first & third XOs didn't care.  I did well at PT and they appreciated having a guy around who could move *expletive deleted*ss and a heavy ruck at a brisk pace.  My 2nd XO, OTOH , was a right bastard, what with his dishonesty and other personality deficits.

(2) During this time, I got into hot water for permanently bending one of the olympic bars in the weight room. I can't recall if it was doing squats or bar shrugs.  None of the juicers managed that trick. 

The trouble with eating healthy though, is produce.  Grains and legumes are quite affordable, but ample amounts of fresh fruits and vegetables are not.

Also, they spoil so dang quickly.  I have pretty much just assumed I am going to pay through the nose for produce and that a significant portion will go bad before it is consumed.

[Iain]

While we're on it, the "BMI is useless" is technically true, but far too often used as a cop-out by those who do no physical activity of the weight-bearing variety that builds this BMI-defeating muscle mass.

I'm about 180lbs at 5'7", and with a slight frame, this takes a lot of work in the gym and in the kitchen. I could stand to lose a few % of bodyfat too. I'm technically overweight, but look very different to friends with similar BMIs that do no exercise. To get here I've had to develop the strength to do things like squat something in the 2-2.5x my bodyweight (and not the unrack bar, bend knees slightly, scream and stand up variety of squat)

Bodyfat % - a lot of BS out there about this. Unless you can see abs all the time you are very unlikely to have 10% bodyfat, unlikely to have that low a bodyfat at all if you are female. Single figures is 'shredded' in common parlance, and bodybuilder stage condition is absolutely peeled, in mid single figures and unsustainable for more than a few hours at a time. Your average man is probably high teens.

Caliper tests are as reliable as the person doing them, I've seen photos of guys with abs who came out with low teens bodyfat percentages in the much more accurate hydrostatic and DEXA scan methods.

[Brad Johnson]

Everyone has a microwave and an oven+stove, but how many people have a steamer, slow cooker, pressure cooker, and/or specialized rice cooker?  Without some of those appliances, the only way to take advantage of lower (bulk) grain/legume prices is to baby sit stuff on the stove, which is no fun and can easily frustrate people to the point of giving up that kind of diet.

Strongly disagree.  That argument falls squarely in the "Want vs Need" category.  There is absolutely NO valid reason why someone with a basic kitchen setup (even one without a microwave) cannot eat healthy, balanced meals using bulk food items, or any other food item for that matter.  Saying "it's too much trouble" because you don't have all the gadgetry and whiz-bang food prep items is a entitlement-mentality copout, an excuse to not do something just because it isn't "right now" convenient.

Brad

[AmbulanceDriver]

While we're on it, the "BMI is useless" is technically true, but far too often used as a cop-out by those who do no physical activity of the weight-bearing variety that builds this BMI-defeating muscle mass.

I'm about 180lbs at 5'7", and with a slight frame, this takes a lot of work in the gym and in the kitchen. I could stand to lose a few % of bodyfat too. I'm technically overweight, but look very different to friends with similar BMIs that do no exercise. To get here I've had to develop the strength to do things like squat something in the 2-2.5x my bodyweight (and not the unrack bar, bend knees slightly, scream and stand up variety of squat)

Bodyfat % - a lot of BS out there about this. Unless you can see abs all the time you are very unlikely to have 10% bodyfat, unlikely to have that low a bodyfat at all if you are female. Single figures is 'shredded' in common parlance, and bodybuilder stage condition is absolutely peeled, in mid single figures and unsustainable for more than a few hours at a time. Your average man is probably high teens.

Caliper tests are as reliable as the person doing them, I've seen photos of guys with abs who came out with low teens bodyfat percentages in the much more accurate hydrostatic and DEXA scan methods.

Iain, I have to agree here.  I"m 6'4, and 300 lbs.  I can definitely stand to lose more than a few pounds.  That being said, were I to instantly lose every ounce of fat, I'd still weigh in at 220-225.  And still be smack in the middle of the "overweight" BMI range.  Before I buggered up my knees, I could leg press in excess of half a ton.  And I do mean true leg press.  Knees to at least 90 degrees, closer to 110...  My calculated one-rep-max was in excess of 1400 lbs.  (never tried it, broke the leg press machine with 1000 lbs on it and that scared the crap outta me).  I may not set land speed records, but not exactly a weakling either.  

[KD5NRH]

(2) During this time, I got into hot water for permanently bending one of the olympic bars in the weight room. I can't recall if it was doing squats or bar shrugs.  None of the juicers managed that trick.

If you demonstrate that you can do it with your butt cheeks, they'll leave you alone.

Especially if the one doing your tape test is the same one that will be doing your...more intimate tests next time.

[Monkeyleg]

I can't believe how ready some are to relinquish their freedoms and the freedoms of others.

[Brad Johnson]

But it's for your own good... *puke*

Brad

[Sawdust]

At this rate, we're eventually going to have a population that it at least 50% diabetic.

=

<<<<<<<<<<<  job security

Sawdust

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

I can't believe how ready some are to relinquish their freedoms and the freedoms of others.

Hey. The Lefties aren't the only ones who corner the " it's for the greater good, like it or not" market.

I'm like some in here with my opinion. You want to be fat, obese. Go have at it. As long as you "obesity" does not effect anyone else. If you can afford to keep your ass fat, who am I to try to stop you. But. The first time I have to pay extra at the doctors office to offset the " run for lunch bunch" or on a plane having to sit by someone so obese that they have 2 smaller people orbiting around them, then it's bothering me.

And yes. If you can't fit your ass into an airline seat, you should have to buy an extra seat.

[mellestad]

I can't believe how ready some are to relinquish their freedoms and the freedoms of others.

Would you care to be more specific as to which of the things I mentioned was terribly out of line?  Unless this is just the argument that any taxes equal a loss of freedom, in which case nevermind.

Or was that directed at someone else?

[mellestad]

Hey. The Lefties aren't the only ones who corner the " it's for the greater good, like it or not" market.

I'm like some in here with my opinion. You want to be fat, obese. Go have at it. As long as you "obesity" does not effect anyone else. If you can afford to keep your ass fat, who am I to try to stop you. But. The first time I have to pay extra at the doctors office to offset the " run for lunch bunch" or on a plane having to sit by someone so obese that they have 2 smaller people orbiting around them, then it's bothering me.

And yes. If you can't fit your ass into an airline seat or pay, you should have to buy an extra seat.

The issue is that under the current system it will have consequences to you and every other tax payer.  Unless you think there is a realistic chance of removing all social safety nets like Medicare before another fat person goes broke after a weight related illness, you are just whistling in the dark.  These issues have already caused an increase in the amount of money the gov puts out, the amount insurers charge for coverage, and the amount doctors charge for care as well as the impact of losing a member of the labor force.

So again, the question is what to do with it.  If your only answer is, “They should take care of themselves without any government help” you are just saying that you are willing to absorb that extra cost.  Why?  Because that isn’t the way it works right now, and that is not going to change any time soon.  Realistically, it is going to get ‘worse’ from your perspective, not better.  Less Libertarian, more Socialist.  So the challenge, like all political challenges, is to come up with ideas that might actually have some impact rather than endlessly lamenting the entire system.

Having said that, “Do nothing” is a valid option, as long as you are willing to deal with the consequences that will spring up and are springing up in the real, right now world.  Just don’t assume that by choosing to do nothing you are also choosing not to pay, because you are.

[Brad Johnson]

Everything has a cost.  Too much of something, too little of something.  There is always a cost.  It's called life.  If you legislate via the expense of an action then the very act of reproduction must be regulated as every new life has a cost associated with it.

Brad

[Nick1911]

Everything has a cost.  Too much of something, too little of something.  There is always a cost.  It's called life.  If you legislate via the expense of an action then the very act of reproduction must be regulated as every new life has a cost associated with it.

Brad

Ah, the China model!

[mellestad]

Everything has a cost.  Too much of something, too little of something.  There is always a cost.  It's called life.  If you legislate via the expense of an action then the very act of reproduction must be regulated as every new life has a cost associated with it.

Brad

And my point is that doing nothing is a cost at this point, so I don't want people to pretend that it is a free option that will only have consequences for those directly involved.

I didn't start this thread to advocate anything, and one of my initial options was even, "Do nothing"...but "Do nothing" needs to acknowledge the inherent cost of that inaction rather than pretending it will only matter to those who are directly impacted.  That's my only point.

The idea could be a valid position, but it would have to be framed as, "Remove all social services involving health".  That is a valid option, although that also has costs associated with it.  It isn't practical in today's political environment, but it does have the virtue of quixotic honesty.

[Fjolnirsson]

The issue is that under the current system it will have consequences to you and every other tax payer.  Unless you think there is a realistic chance of removing all social safety nets like Medicare before another fat person goes broke after a weight related illness, you are just whistling in the dark.  These issues have already caused an increase in the amount of money the gov puts out, the amount insurers charge for coverage, and the amount doctors charge for care as well as the impact of losing a member of the labor force.

So again, the question is what to do with it.  If your only answer is, “They should take care of themselves without any government help” you are just saying that you are willing to absorb that extra cost.  Why?  Because that isn’t the way it works right now, and that is not going to change any time soon.  Realistically, it is going to get ‘worse’ from your perspective, not better.  Less Libertarian, more Socialist.  So the challenge, like all political challenges, is to come up with ideas that might actually have some impact rather than endlessly lamenting the entire system.

Having said that, “Do nothing” is a valid option, as long as you are willing to deal with the consequences that will spring up and are springing up in the real, right now world.  Just don’t assume that by choosing to do nothing you are also choosing not to pay, because you are.

No, the challenge is to find a way of rolling back the endless progression of evermore intrusive laws we labor under. The solution is not to throw our hands in the air and figure the people in charge are going to screw us, so let's lets figure out which brand of lubricant we like best. The solution is to educate and inform people, to work tirelessly to return our country to something which at least pretends to honor the Constitution.

[makattak]

And my point is that doing nothing is a cost at this point, so I don't want people to pretend that it is a free option that will only have consequences for those directly involved.

I didn't start this thread to advocate anything, and one of my initial options was even, "Do nothing"...but "Do nothing" needs to acknowledge the inherent cost of that inaction rather than pretending it will only matter to those who are directly impacted.  That's my only point.

The idea could be a valid position, but it would have to be framed as, "Remove all social services involving health".  That is a valid option, although that also has costs associated with it.  It isn't practical in today's political environment, but it does have the virtue of quixotic honesty.

That's ok. Our entitlements are unsustainable. If we don't seriously cut back on them, the country will collapse soon*. We'll be left with an oppressive state or a lawless frontier (or, maybe we'll get lucky and get BOTH like Argentina).

*Soon means within the next generation. I'm starting to doubt we even have 20 years left.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Eat two meals a day. Stop 'liking' food. Avoid potato products. Tooth pain helps considerably.

[Nick1911]

Well, this thread is becoming tiring.

  Less Libertarian, more Socialist.  So the challenge, like all political challenges, is to come up with ideas that might actually have some impact rather than endlessly lamenting the entire system.

If my options are "change nothing" or "take MORE of my money to fund YET ANOTHER noble, altruistic government program that pays for other peoples bad decisions while I keep making good ones and getting stuck with the bill for everyone else", I'll stick with do nothing.

[makattak]

Well, this thread is becoming tiring.

If my options are "change nothing" or "take MORE of my money to fund YET ANOTHER noble, altruistic government program that pays for other peoples bad decisions while I keep making good ones and getting stuck with the bill for everyone else", I'll stick with do nothing.

Yeah, it's funny how this argument is exactly like the healthcare argument.

"Our healthcare costs are spiraling up and up and up!!! We have to DO SOMETHING!!!!111"

Yeah... there's a problem with that. Throwing an anchor to a drowning man may be "doing something" but it's unlikely to help the situation.

[tyme]

Strongly disagree.  That argument falls squarely in the "Want vs Need" category.  There is absolutely NO valid reason why someone with a basic kitchen setup (even one without a microwave) cannot eat healthy, balanced meals using bulk food items, or any other food item for that matter.  Saying "it's too much trouble" because you don't have all the gadgetry and whiz-bang food prep items is a entitlement-mentality copout, an excuse to not do something just because it isn't "right now" convenient.

With an outlook like that, how do you even have a computer?  Isn't that a modern technological gizmo that just contributes to the decay of society and your own entitlement mentality of having gadgets do the work that Real People (tm) do by hand?

Like I said, you have the option of kitchen gadgets or baby sitting food while it cooks so it doesn't stick/burn/blow up.  You might view the latter as a badge of honor.  I prefer the gadgets, and all I was saying is that for a lot of people, baby sitting food is a no-go regardless of how character building you think it is.

[BridgeRunner]

Well, this thread is becoming tiring.

Indeed.

I'm still not sure why private action is clearly unworkable, nor why gov't action is warranted or, in many cases, even legal.  

[mellestad]

Well, this thread is becoming tiring.

If my options are "change nothing" or "take MORE of my money to fund YET ANOTHER noble, altruistic government program that pays for other peoples bad decisions while I keep making good ones and getting stuck with the bill for everyone else", I'll stick with do nothing.

Like I said, that is a valid option as long as you are aware of it.

No, the challenge is to find a way of rolling back the endless progression of evermore intrusive laws we labor under. The solution is not to throw our hands in the air and figure the people in charge are going to screw us, so let's lets figure out which brand of lubricant we like best. The solution is to educate and inform people, to work tirelessly to return our country to something which at least pretends to honor the Constitution.

I guess I've just never understood why you can't fight for a idealized world while you are trying to make the real world work better at the same time.  All or nothing doesn’t seem to get much done.  I think you devalue what little power you do have by doing so.
*shrug* Good luck. 

[Monkeyleg]

We have an endless list of behaviors that have an effect on each other. Smoking, obesity, driving, shooting guns, drinking alcohol...you name it, it's probably impacting someone.

There's a reason why insurance companies have you answer a zillion questions when you apply for a policy, and you'll pay for any destructive behaviors. My health insurance premium dropped significantly when I quit smoking.

That's the marketplace. Using the tax system to regulate behavior doesn't work and never has. 

[mellestad]

We have an endless list of behaviors that have an effect on each other. Smoking, obesity, driving, shooting guns, drinking alcohol...you name it, it's probably impacting someone.

There's a reason why insurance companies have you answer a zillion questions when you apply for a policy, and you'll pay for any destructive behaviors. My health insurance premium dropped significantly when I quit smoking.

That's the marketplace. Using the tax system to regulate behavior doesn't work and never has. 

You don't think taxes had any impact on smoking related illness?  I'm not saying anything about right or wrong, I'm just asking if it had any impact at all.  From a bit of Googling it looks to me like taxation , publically funded ad campaigns and legislation have severly impacted smoking.

[sanglant]

Eric, have you tried boosting your protein intake? i mean going to 3 to 4 times the recommended levels. i start feeling bad(well worse ) if i don't enough, not going to give any numbers because i don't want to make you sick or something.
this place is kind of odd, but there are some interesting ideas in the forum. i have ordered from the supporting site and they ship fast and there prices are good enough. the vitamin shop is handy if you have one local.

oh and muscle milk is good.

edit: misspelled my own middle name, sorry man.