Stunning developments in the 2009 police shooting of Georgia pastor

[Perd Hapley]

Being involved with a drug user/dealer, regardless of your vocation, is a pretty good reason to be suspected of also being involved with drugs yourself.  I'm sorry, but it comes with the territory.  And clergymen are not immune to being criminals.

   I never said they couldn't be criminals, but suspicion would really depend on the nature of the relationship, wouldn't it?  Or do you automatically suspect anyone who runs a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter of drug use/dealing? 

[dogmush]

Being involved with a drug user/dealer, regardless of your vocation, is a pretty good reason to be suspected of also being involved with drugs yourself.  I'm sorry, but it comes with the territory.  And clergymen are not immune to being criminals.

And if these cowboys (there's a loaded phrase for you) had flipped on some lights, called a marked unit, followed him home and then gotten a warant, or in any way not acted like they were recreating "Training Day" they might have a point.  But rolling up, guns drawn, dressed as gangsters, in a gangster-mobile?  Because he might have bought some crack?  How was this proprtional to the suspected customer of a very small time ($50 of crack, remember?) dealer?

[dogmush]

Not quite.  Police are justified in arresting someone they have probable cause to believe has committed a misdemeanor in their presence or a felony anywhere.  I do think they had this when tying to arrest the pastor.  Was the execution of that arrest messed up?  Yep.  But the arrest itself was not unjustified.

Really?  It's the same standard to search a car as to arrest someone?  Why do we bother with warrant's and Terry stops then?

[MicroBalrog]

Not quite.  Police are justified in arresting someone they have probable cause to believe has committed a misdemeanor in their presence or a felony anywhere.  I do think they had this when tying to arrest the pastor.  Was the execution of that arrest messed up?  Yep.  But the arrest itself was not unjustified.

Forget here the issue of drug prohibition.

The problem with this situation is not drugs - it is the desire of some law enforcement officers to treat minor or non-violent suspects as if they were Osama Bin Laden and Charles Manson rolled into one that is causing this sort of event.

[taurusowner]

And rolling up in an unmarked vehicle and jumping out guns drawn that anyone would assume to be a robbery? I consider that the mediating factor here.

Had they blocked him off with black and white, fine whatever. Had they tapped on his window and showed credentials, great.

But they didn't. They used the same exact tactics a car jacker or robber would have used and he reacted accordingly. He had every right to fear for HIS life in the situation, the cops put themselves there with their piss poor tactics.

Perhaps if they received a stiff consequence for their bad tactics that led to an innocent man being killed other officers might be more encouraged to stop and think of the tactics they choose to employee.

Well there are a number of issues here that do not negate each other.

Did they have probable cause to make an arrest?  Yes.
Is this a "drug prohibition" issue? No.
Did they use good tactics in making that arrest?  No.
Did the pastor have a reason to fear he was being carjacked or robbed? Yes.
Did the officers have reason to believe a criminal was fleeing arrest in a vehicle? Also yes.
Should the shooter have been carrying a weapon on the job? No.
Did the shooter have an arguable reason to fear for his life?  Yes.

This is not cut and dry.  And one issue in favor of the pastor does not negate everything in favor of the officers, and vice versa.

This is not "valiant public servants taking down a hardened criminal" OR "jackbooted thugs murdering innocent civilians".  No matter how much either side wants to make it out to be one or the other.

[Perd Hapley]

The problem with this situation is not drugs - it is the desire of some law enforcement officers to treat minor or non-violent suspects as if they were Osama Bin Laden and Charles Manson rolled into one that is causing this sort of event.

So you're saying it would have been OK, if it turned out to be Charles Manson?        

[lupinus]

Forget here the issue of drug prohibition.

The problem with this situation is not drugs - it is the desire of some law enforcement officers to treat minor or non-violent suspects as if they were Osama Bin Laden and Charles Manson rolled into one that is causing this sort of event.

Exactly. It's not the drugs, it's not that he ran and clipped one, hell in some ways it's not even one of the cops shouldn't have been carrying (that's just icing and nothing more, it's the poor tactics that created a situation in which an innocent man was killed.

Had the officers in this case acted as if they had a brain between them and called in a marked unit or just walked up and displayed credentials the whole thing would have probably been resolved in less time then we've spent here discussing it. There used to be such a thing as presumption of innocence and it took a hell of a lot more then loaning someone a few bucks to break that presumption.

And at the end of the day everyone would be home alive and a child would have had the chance to know their dad.

[zxcvbob]

Did the officers have reason to believe a criminal was fleeing arrest in a vehicle? Also yes.

Is that reason enough to fire into the vehicle?  No.

[taurusowner]

Is that reason enough to fire into the vehicle?  No.

Not quite.  That particular issue can be argued either way.

[lupinus]

Well there are a number of issues here that do not negate each other.

Did they have probable cause to make an arrest?  Yes.

This is not cut and dry.  And one issue in favor of the pastor does not negate everything in favor of the officers, and vice versa.

Under the circumstances, with the tactics used, I would say it does negate anything in the officers favor. They created a situation immeasurably more dangerous that it had to be with their poor tactics and a predictable result happened.

It's no different then performing a no knock on the wrong house and a man defending himself and young child against what he has every reason to believe are home invaders, and then sending him away when one of the officers is killed. Police should be held responsible when their poor tactics create such situations, else what reason do they have to use any thought or moderation?

[taurusowner]

Under the circumstances, with the tactics used, I would say it does negate anything in the officers favor. They created a situation immeasurably more dangerous that it had to be with their poor tactics and a predictable result happened.

And I think you're wrong.  Not much else to say about it.

[MicroBalrog]

Under the circumstances, with the tactics used, I would say it does negate anything in the officers favor. They created a situation immeasurably more dangerous that it had to be with their poor tactics and a predictable result happened.

This is the problem here.

Nobody is suggesting, I think, that the officers set out to murder the pastor.

But the problem is this: when people who are not trained military or LEO personnel get put into a volatile situation, they do not always act reasonably. Once you create such a situation, someone is going to get hurt.

Because these people set up - through incompetence, and overzealousness - a volatile situation, someone was going to get hurt. That was a result of the situation they created.

[tyme]

Nobody is suggesting, I think, that the officers set out to murder the pastor.

In Georgia, and most other places, it is also murder if you end up killing someone during the commission of a felony, whether or not there is premeditation.

The question becomes whether the officers' conduct is far enough outside the bounds of normal police procedure to constitute a felony on their part.

If it is, they should be charged with murder and attempted murder.

If it is not, there is something horribly wrong with the existing bounds of normal police procedure.

[zxcvbob]

In Georgia, and most other places, it is also murder if you end up killing someone during the commission of a felony, whether or not there is premeditation.  The question becomes whether the officers' conduct is far enough outside the bounds of normal police procedure to constitute a felony on their part.

Bingo.  It's called the "felony murder rule".  You can also argue that there was premeditation in this case, but it's a weak argument and it's not required for a conviction.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you know the non cop witnesses said they identified themselves as cops. this didn't happen outa sight or hearing somewhere

[zxcvbob]

I'm sure they did identify themselves to the witnesses.  Under the circumstances, wouldn't you?

[Balog]

you know the non cop witnesses said they identified themselves as cops. this didn't happen outa sight or hearing somewhere

Yeah, guys in ski masks jump out of a car waving guns and yelling right after I withdrew money from an ATM, I'd A. understand what they said in spite of rolled up windows AC and radio & B. believe them.

It's funny, CSD and RD love to claim the other side is biased, but they conveniently forget their own bias don't they? I really should search up the thread where CSD was saying how wonderful it was when cops beat suspects to teach them respect, how that helped him straighten his life out when it happened to him. A good illustration of his mindset imho.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

nice balkoism!  the eyewitnesses said that they heard the cops identify themselves as cops .

[dogmush]

nice balkoism!  the eyewitnesses said that they heard the cops identify themselves as cops .

Yes and had their target not been in a car with the windows rolled up and AC and radio on he probably would have heard them. If he was so dangerous they needed the guns already drawn and the fast-takedown tactics, maybe they should have put one of these on:

  Then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

"I really should search up the thread where CSD was saying how wonderful it was when cops beat suspects to teach them respect, how that helped him straighten his life out when it happened to him. A good illustration of his mindset imho."

if you can find that thread let me know  post it  i won;t hold my breath

[MechAg94]

nice balkoism!  the eyewitnesses said that they heard the cops identify themselves as cops .

And you would believe them?  

If you were a CHL nearby, you would say "oh, they are cops" and turn the other way?  What if they didn't yell "cops" immediately, but wait a few seconds?  What if you were in your car waiting in line to fill up and couldn't hear them?  That sort of thing bothers me.    

I don't know if I would go for murder charges or not, but I would agree that their tactics and procedure suck and any competent investigation should have pointed that out.  The presence of even one marked police car with uniform would have changed the whole look of this incident from the view of the target and the witnesses.  They could have had a marked unit pull him over down the street then moved in to execute the arrest/search at that time.  

I am also curious if they bothered to call in his license plates and find out who he was?  

[MechAg94]

Seeing some of the comments like this so soon after going through the thread about executing innocent people just seem very ironic/funny to me.  Here we have an innocent guy who was shot and killed by police due to circumstances created by obvious tactical/strategic errors by the police.  Yet we find reasons to say this is okay. 

[Jamisjockey]

Oh sweet baby tentacled one.  Enough.