Author Topic: If you aren't sure what they are trying to accomplish, this should clarify it...  (Read 44771 times)

mellestad

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This ^^^ is a thoroughly dishonest re-(mis)statement of folks' arguments.  I'd be ashamed to so blatantly "misrepresent" someone's argument in such a manner.  But, shame has been driven out of the public square by the self-esteem boosters, who think that everyone (no matter how worthless) has the right to feel good about themselves.

Even those who do not see a role for gov't here have not objected to private charity taking up the slack.  Especially since private charity did all the heavy lifting before bloated gov't bureaucrats, who are incentivised to keep people on the gov't teat, shoved them to the side.
 

Quote from: JamisJockey
Dump all forms of public health care assistance.  Let people be whatever they want to be.  If they can't afford to pay for the decisions they make in life (eating too much, smoking, drinking too much...), then let them die.  Life is a bitch.

Mhmm.  Why would private charities step in more than they do now, or did in the past?  If my 80 year old grandmother falls and breaks a hip and ends up with a 100k hospital bill, exactly what charity is she supposed to go to?  Or is it her fault she doesn’t have a nest egg of a couple million?

I dunno man.  If private charities were a viable alternative to a government safety net, I don’t think a government safety net would have ever been created.  Oh yea, evil socialist conspiracy right?

makattak

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Mhmm.  Why would private charities step in more than they do now, or did in the past?  If my 80 year old grandmother falls and breaks a hip and ends up with a 100k hospital bill, exactly what charity is she supposed to go to?  Or is it her fault she doesn’t have a nest egg of a couple million?

I dunno man.  If private charities were a viable alternative to a government safety net, I don’t think a government safety net would have ever been created.  Oh yea, evil socialist conspiracy right?


Really?

It doesn't require an evil socialist conspiracy, it requires stupid people who don't understand incentives, moral hazard and adverse selection.

It requires stupid people who think they can, from Washington, better decide who needs charity than the people at the point handing out the charity.

It requires stupid people who think that despite losing the "war on poverty" for 40 years, we can make it better with MORE government control.

A conspiracy isn't necessary when human stupidity has no bounds.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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I don't know about the best, but I certainly believe in the concept of a safety net for society.  Most of the rugged individualists here generally do not, though, unless we bring back the Dickensian concept of the workhouse.  
I believe in the concept of safety nets, too.  I just think the people who want them should provide them for themselves.

It's certainly possible for people to buy their own insurance (and pay a price commensurate with the risk they represent) so that they don't have to rely on an employer.  It's also possible to provide yourself disability insurance, save up some cash against unforeseen events like a layoff, and so forth.  And we could even buy our own unemployment insurance too, if only the government hadn't monopolized that particular market.

Aside from stuff like fighting wars and running a post office, there isn't much that the government can do for us that we can't do better ourselves.

Sad to say, it's been so long since we've really taken care of ourselves without needing government that many of us don't even remember it's possible.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 01:28:17 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Pumping that much money into any market will grossly distort it (not to mention the uncounted regs).  Gov't dollars pumped into the market inflates the price to all and those who get it worst are those with no insurance.  We've seen the same pernicious effect of gov't largess in the higher education market.  It is no coincidence that higher ed & health care, two markets awash with gov't money & people who are oh-so-generous with other people's money, are two segments of the economy with rates of inflation that consistently outpace the mean for the economy. 

Gov't (taxpayer) money causes outsized inflation, costs rise, than calls for more gov't money ensue. 
Don't forget the housing market inflation caused by Freddie and Fannie and regulations against sane lending pushed by guys like Barney Frank.

MillCreek

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Since many people here in this thread believe that the current system of "safety nets" are broken, I would be interested to see your thoughts on a better system.  And not just by saying that neighbors, private charities or family should take the place of the current system.

What are your specific points in terms of client selection, deciding on an equitable distribution of resources, where the resources would come from to assist those in need, client monitoring and client assistance.  How do you decide, in a legal, equitable and moral manner, who gets help and who does not?
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

mellestad

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Really?

It doesn't require an evil socialist conspiracy, it requires stupid people who don't understand incentives, moral hazard and adverse selection.

It requires stupid people who think they can, from Washington, better decide who needs charity than the people at the point handing out the charity.

It requires stupid people who think that despite losing the "war on poverty" for 40 years, we can make it better with MORE government control.

A conspiracy isn't necessary when human stupidity has no bounds.

*sigh*
Your entire point seems to rest on the idea that if we have any government interference, we have communism.  I'm sick of hearing about how all our problems can be fixed by making sure the government does nothing, just like I am sick of people on the other side saying anything a private company does is evil by default.  Obviously you need social safety nets and obviously you need incentives to perform.  Show me a society that has operated at your ideal level and I'll show you why most people wouldn't want to live there.  Has there ever been a society that operates in your ideal?

You didn't answer my questions, either.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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*sigh*
Your entire point seems to rest on the idea that if we have any government interference, we have communism.  I'm sick of hearing about how all our problems can be fixed by making sure the government does nothing, just like I am sick of people on the other side saying anything a private company does is evil by default.  Obviously you need social safety nets and obviously you need incentives to perform.  Show me a society that has operated at your ideal level and I'll show you why most people wouldn't want to live there.  Has there ever been a society that operates in your ideal?

You didn't answer my questions, either.
I think you missed mak's point.  You seem to assume the rasion d'etre for the government safety nets is to keep people safe, that the reason they were created was because there existed no safety before the government stepped in to create it.

Mak has pointed out several reasons why this reasoning is likely false.

I could point out several more non-safety-related reasons for the government safety nets, including vote-buying and power-grabbing.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 10:10:39 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Perd Hapley

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Obviously you need social safety nets

 No, that's not obvious at all. 

At the very least, we don't need can do better than having safety nets on the national level. 

At the not-so-least, we could let private organizations supply the safety nets. 
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Scout26

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Let me toss, my $.02 since I have an incurable disease, and have (against my will) become a partial ward of the state.

One of the first things I would change is having employer provided health insurance.  I should be able to choose my own with the ability to choose from a menu of optional coverages, much like car insurance.

When I went to work for my last employer I selected disability and term life insurance coverage.  Mrs. Scout works for a large health insurance company, we went with her employer provided coverage, since the plan offered by my employer was the EXACT SAME policy that she could get for much less per month then I, we went with her coverage.

At the point I told my boss I needed frequent periodic time-off (via FMLA) to receive and recover from Chemo, he told me to have my doc fill out the insurance company disability form.  I spent 6 months getting Short-term disability (Company paid) and then 6 months of Long Term from the Disability Insurance provider (No it's not the Duck company).   Buried in the fine print of the LTDI is something to the effect of "After a year, we're going to do our damnedest to pawn you off onto Social Security and we damned well expect you to cooperate."   Well I've "cooperated".  :angel: However it's not my fault forms didn't get mailed in on time, I couldn't help traffic that made me late for my hearing, etc, etc, etc.

Finally despite all my "cooperation", this past January the .gov finally gave in and "approved" me for SS and Madicare. 

I farking hate it.

As I stated many times to my "Case Manager", I have a contract with your company, not the government.

Even if I didn't have insurance, I would rather workout terms with my docs and the hospitals then take .gov money and deal with their BULLSH!TE.   
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BReilley

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Quote from: mellestad
Mhmm.  Why would private charities step in more than they do now, or did in the past?  If my 80 year old grandmother falls and breaks a hip and ends up with a 100k hospital bill, exactly what charity is she supposed to go to?

Does your grandmother not have insurance?  I know mine does and I'm very glad for it, because last year around Thanksgiving she fell and broke her wrist.  Kind of a big deal for an 87-year-old woman living alone in an old two-floor house in Massachusetts.  Her insurance, paid for out of the savings that my grandfather kept so that they could retire(quite modestly), fully covered the costs of her treatment and recovery.

What if she didn't have insurance though?  Why would that concern you at all?

Quote from: mellestad
Or is it her fault she doesn’t have a nest egg of a couple million?

In America today, if you retire without a huge chunk of money in the bank, you're not really "retiring", you're quitting work and hoping that nothing serious happens to you medically, and that your savings and social security payments are enough to pay your bills.  You either failed to save responsibly, or you planned to live off of others, or you plain had bad luck and, say, lost half your worth in a housing market crash. 
The first two situations could reasonably be called willfully negligent, and in the third situation, everybody else is probably hurting as badly due to the same market crash.
If, however, you spend and save wisely like your parents(hopefully) told you to, you'll probably be alright.  Like most anything else, retirement costs money.

Quote from: mellestad
I dunno man.  If private charities were a viable alternative to a government safety net, I don’t think a government safety net would have ever been created.  Oh yea, evil socialist conspiracy right?

Existence is not proof of validity.  I'm not calling you stupid, and I know what you're getting at, but to say that a government program, of all things, is worthy and necessary simply because it exists is just not the way to make a point in this company :)

Also, I have specifically included both organized and individual charity in my responses.  A neighbor can help a neighbor, and that's still charity, even though it's not a big nonprofit.  I bring that up because you keep mentioning private charities, but you neglect to consider the possibilities of the individual or community level.

*sigh*
Your entire point seems to rest on the idea that if we have any government interference, we have communism.  I'm sick of hearing about how all our problems can be fixed by making sure the government does nothing, just like I am sick of people on the other side saying anything a private company does is evil by default.  Obviously you need social safety nets and obviously you need incentives to perform.  Show me a society that has operated at your ideal level and I'll show you why most people wouldn't want to live there.  Has there ever been a society that operates in your ideal?

It's still not obvious why we need government-administered social safety nets, and what more incentive need there be than personal gain or profit?

No society has ever operated at my ideal level.  The 19th-century U.S. came close, with the obvious(but clearly necessary to mention) exclusion of slavery and general racial injustice, foreign involvement, etc.
I fully admit that life might suck in the libertarian utopia of my dreams - certainly it would be difficult - but we can be confident from history that socialist experiments don't go well.

Can you provide an example of a society operating at your ideal level?  I don't mean that sarcastically; I would be interested in seeing something you'd consider even close to ideal.

PTK

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Let me toss, my $.02 since I have an incurable disease, and have (against my will) become a partial ward of the state.

One of the first things I would change is having employer provided health insurance.  I should be able to choose my own with the ability to choose from a menu of optional coverages, much like car insurance.

When I went to work for my last employer I selected disability and term life insurance coverage.  Mrs. Scout works for a large health insurance company, we went with her employer provided coverage, since the plan offered by my employer was the EXACT SAME policy that she could get for much less per month then I, we went with her coverage.

At the point I told my boss I needed frequent periodic time-off (via FMLA) to receive and recover from Chemo, he told me to have my doc fill out the insurance company disability form.  I spent 6 months getting Short-term disability (Company paid) and then 6 months of Long Term from the Disability Insurance provider (No it's not the Duck company).   Buried in the fine print of the LTDI is something to the effect of "After a year, we're going to do our damnedest to pawn you off onto Social Security and we damned well expect you to cooperate."   Well I've "cooperated".  :angel: However it's not my fault forms didn't get mailed in on time, I couldn't help traffic that made me late for my hearing, etc, etc, etc.

Finally despite all my "cooperation", this past January the .gov finally gave in and "approved" me for SS and Madicare. 

I farking hate it.

As I stated many times to my "Case Manager", I have a contract with your company, not the government.

Even if I didn't have insurance, I would rather workout terms with my docs and the hospitals then take .gov money and deal with their BULLSH!TE.   


AMEN! I cannot adequately describe in words how much I share your feelings, friend.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

mellestad

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@BB and Fistful:

That is pretty much my point...neither one of you can show me a working example of what you advocate, past or present.  The think that made me leave the libertarian movement was the realization that it was almost pure theory.  You want everything privatized, but the reason we have most federal programs is because there was a gap in something the private sector was doing, or some sort of problem.  This discussion is a good example...no-one wants the fed to run it, but most people don't want to go back to health care circa 1800AD.  You can't just say you hope private charities and such will take care of the problem when those organizations have never taken care of the problem at the scale we are talking about.

I have a huge soft spot for libertarianism, it is one of the reasons I am on this forum.  My problem is practicality and actual implementation.  I'm not willing to gamble the future of a nuclear superpower on something that has never been done.  It also doesn't hurt that I don't feel the moral outrage at socialism that seems to pop up here so often, and I don't have any emotional attachment to the constitutionalism type movements either.  I'm not interested in perfect, I am interested in the best we can do right now, for the most people.

roo_ster

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...neither one of you can show me a working example of what you advocate, past or present.

Dude, read some history.  Your posts demonstrate no understanding of what occurred & why various events occurred, just acceptance that "something was wrong or the gov't wouldn't have acted."  Such an acceptance of benevolence, competence, and omniscience on the part of gov't is what one expects of a subject, and is not to be praised in a citizen.

People had medical care before the gov't shoved all the fraternal orgs & charities aside and inflated the cost.  Most paid for it out of pocket.  Some paid for it over time, if it was a large bill.  Some had help from fraternal organizations in which they had previously invested time, effort, & money.  Some had help from charity and still others were treated at the multitude of church-affiliated hospitals, which existed to serve the poor.

For example, before any of the "safety net" was erected, my grandfather was a Moose (http://www.mooseintl.org/public/default.asp) and squared away plenty of his brothers.   And they helped him out when he had hard times.  It sure worked for him & his, and they were nothing special, just farmers.  They also helped my grandmother in her last years, after my grandfather died.  

I'd think a little Alexis de Tocqueville would be a fine place to start to understand just how Americans forged bonds with one another in America.  

...the reason we have most federal programs is because there was a gap in something the private sector was doing, or some sort of problem.

Or because the statists wanted more clients of the state and fewer people who have no need of the state.  A man who can stand on his own two feet (sometimes with the help of neighbors) is a man who doesn't need a meddling gov't and who is a threat to that gov't and to statists, generally.

Quote
...I don't have any emotional attachment to the constitutionalism type movements either.

Some of us took oaths from which we have yet to be released.  Some understand that a gov't that does not hew to the COTUS is a gov't of men and one sure to lead to tyranny, given (here is the h-word again) history's lessons.
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roo_ster

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mellestad

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Dude, read some history.  Your posts demonstrate no understanding of what occurred & why various events occurred, just acceptance that "something was wrong or the gov't wouldn't have acted."  Such an acceptance of benevolence, competence, and omniscience on the part of gov't is what one expects of a subject, and is not to be praised in a citizen.

People had medical care before the gov't shoved all the fraternal orgs & charities aside and inflated the cost.  Most paid for it out of pocket.  Some paid for it over time, if it was a large bill.  Some had help from fraternal organizations in which they had previously invested time, effort, & money.  Some had help from charity and still others were treated at the multitude of church-affiliated hospitals, which existed to serve the poor.

For example, before any of the "safety net" was erected, my grandfather was a Moose (http://www.mooseintl.org/public/default.asp) and squared away plenty of his brothers.   And they helped him out when he had hard times.  It sure worked for him & his, and they were nothing special, just farmers.  They also helped my grandmother in her last years, after my grandfather died.  

I'd think a little Alexis de Tocqueville would be a fine place to start to understand just how Americans forged bonds with one another in America.  

Or because the statists wanted more clients of the state and fewer people who have no need of the state.  A man who can stand on his own two feet (sometimes with the help of neighbors) is a man who doesn't need a meddling gov't and who is a threat to that gov't and to statists, generally.

Some of us took oaths from which we have yet to be released.  Some understand that a gov't that does not hew to the COTUS is a gov't of men and one sure to lead to tyranny, given (here is the h-word again) history's lessons.

I’m not seeing an example of a working society that supports your ideals, all I am seeing is anecdotes about the good old days, along with some fun throwing around, ‘statist’, the hint that I am ignorant, the assumption that I am claiming socialism=utopia, and another hint that anyone who disagrees with your stance about the Constitution is anti-American.

If you feel your position has evidence behind it, show it to me.  Show me why people were healthier/happier/more wealth is generated/whatever in a society that exists or has existed, that follows your political philosophy.  I would love to be convinced that libertarian utopia is possible.

Early America?  Early United Kingdom?  What time period?  Somewhere else?

« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 02:19:22 PM by mellestad »

PTK

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I’m not seeing an example of a working society that supports your ideals, all I am seeing is anecdotes about the good old days, along with some fun throwing around, ‘statist’, the hint that I am ignorant, the assumption that I am claiming socialism=utopia, and another hint that anyone who disagrees with your stance about the Constitution is anti-American.

If you feel your position has evidence behind it, show it to me.  Show me why people were healthier/happier/more wealth is generated/whatever in a society that exists or has existed, that follows your political philosophy.  I would love to be convinced that libertarian utopia is possible.

Early America?  Early United Kingdom?  What time period?  Somewhere else?



I may not like your stance, but you are very good at debating.  =)
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makattak

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I may not like your stance, but you are very good at debating.  =)

You mean throwing out assumptions and then asking people to prove them wrong?

Yeah, that's a great "debating" tactic.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

PTK

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You mean throwing out assumptions and then asking people to prove them wrong?

Yeah, that's a great "debating" tactic.

No, he's actually debating. Again, while I don't agree with him, he's asking for proof one way or the other; both sides, at this point, are simple referencing anecdotes.  ;)
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makattak

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No, he's actually debating. Again, while I don't agree with him, he's asking for proof one way or the other; both sides, at this point, are simple referencing anecdotes.  ;)

Asking for proof while not documenting his own claims is more than a little hypocritical, no?

For example:

I dunno man.  If private charities were a viable alternative to a government safety net, I don’t think a government safety net would have ever been created.  Oh yea, evil socialist conspiracy right?


He just assumes the government must have stepped in because charities weren't doing the job.

Then asks that we prove him wrong.

Either he offers evidence to support his position or he accepts this is a theoretical debate. He doesn't get to make theoretical claims and then shoot down others position as "merely theoretical claims."

I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Tallpine

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I would love to be convinced that libertarian utopia is possible.

Neither libertarian nor socialist utopia is possible.

You either believe that humans have a right to direct their own affairs and utilize the fruits of their labors as they see fit, or you believe that someone else should own all or part of their persons and their productivity.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

PTK

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Neither libertarian nor socialist utopia is possible.

You either believe that humans have a right to direct their own affairs and utilize the fruits of their labors as they see fit, or you believe that someone else should own all or part of their persons and their productivity.

We have a winner.  =D
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mellestad

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Neither libertarian nor socialist utopia is possible.

You either believe that humans have a right to direct their own affairs and utilize the fruits of their labors as they see fit, or you believe that someone else should own all or part of their persons and their productivity.

I agree 100% with your first statement.  Where I part ways is your second statement, which indicates the same black and white mentality that I am tired of.  I believe libertarianism has a place and socialism has a place.  An ideal system is a mix, not an either or, the trick is deciding what your priorities are, then giving and taking until you get to some sort of equilibrium that the majority can live with.  Politics.

Rather than plagiarize an acquaintance, I'll just quote him since he sums up my feelings more poetically than I do.

Quote
Personally, I believe the only system that has any merit at all is one that incorporates elements of several political philosophies, without elevating any of them as the answer to all of life's problems.  The fundamental problem is that utopia is impossible, and it's also impossible to agree on what ought to be the biggest goal of a government.  Do we want to eliminate poverty?  We can do that, but with wealth redistribution comes a certain unavoidable unfairness.  Some people really do work harder than others, and it doesn't feel fair to work so hard without also making a lot more money. 
We can say the same kind of thing about any societal goal.  You want this?  Ok, but you have to sacrifice some of that.  The only solution that makes any sense is to hybridize the government such that some things are socialized while others remain largely unregulated by the government.  Prevent abject poverty as best you can.  Allow people to create their own rewards if they want to elevate their standards of living, but don't let them create an unsustainable income gap.  Encourage small businesses by preventing enormous businesses from using predatory market tactics, but don't regulate so heavily that it becomes impossible to grow.  Etc, etc...
As several have said, there's no existing political philosophy which, taken to an extreme, allows this kind of pluralism.


@PTK: I imagine you won’t get many people here to agree with you, haha.

mellestad

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Asking for proof while not documenting his own claims is more than a little hypocritical, no?

For example:

He just assumes the government must have stepped in because charities weren't doing the job.

Then asks that we prove him wrong.

Either he offers evidence to support his position or he accepts this is a theoretical debate. He doesn't get to make theoretical claims and then shoot down others position as "merely theoretical claims."



I guess I assumed that was common knowledge.  Should I start quoting Roosevelt and social security?  There are two choices (There might be more, if there are feel free, I don’t have anything riding on this, it is off the cuff!): 1) These programs were put in place because of a (edit: perceived need, since you can argue whether it was really needed or not) need.  2) Socialist conspiracy to bring down the little man.  If you are down the rabbit hole far enough that your answer is 2 I think we are beyond the point of debate, aren’t we?

Again, I don’t want to live in the America that existed before any government social programs existed.  I’m sorry but I really don’t.  You aren’t going to have much luck convincing mainstream people that they want to either.

And if you want evidence, just ask for it.  Here’s the thing: I can show you working, socialist societies that I wouldn’t mind living in….including America.  Every first world country in the world is socialist to one degree or another.  Simple fact.  I don’t feel the need to defend every single detail of ‘socialism’ because that is not the point.  My point is simply that socialism is a part of modern society, has been a part of society, and will continue to be a part of modern society, and the world has not imploded yet.  If you want to convince me that ‘socialism’ is evil and we would all be better off without it, you’ve got a heck of a burden of proof you need to justify because you are staring down almost every facet of modern first world existence.  A large part of the burden is showing me a society that operates under the principles you advocate, so I can see whether or not I would like to be involved in that society.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 06:37:08 PM by mellestad »

Perd Hapley

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@BB and Fistful:

That is pretty much my point...neither one of you can show me a working example of what you advocate, past or present.

Neither can you.  As far as I can tell, by "working example" you mean a place with no govt. social spending and private charities fill every need.  Of course, no such place exists.  But it is equally clear that govt. safety nets also fail this test.  The question is whether they actually increase suffering (and I believe they often do) and whether they are morally permissible (and I'm not so sure they are). 

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The think that made me leave the libertarian movement was the realization that it was almost pure theory.  You want everything privatized, but the reason we have most federal programs is because there was a gap in something the private sector was doing, or some sort of problem.  This discussion is a good example...no-one wants the fed to run it, but most people don't want to go back to health care circa 1800AD.  You can't just say you hope private charities and such will take care of the problem when those organizations have never taken care of the problem at the scale we are talking about.

You presume that government has a responsibility to fill in the gaps left by private efforts.  Why? 

You also presume that government social programs are effective in alleviating poverty and other "social injustices."  Why? 


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It also doesn't hurt that I don't feel the moral outrage at socialism that seems to pop up here so often.
So government programs that impoverish vast numbers of people, while curtailing their liberties, cause you no moral outrage?  You think this is a good thing?   =|  It seems to me like a moral failing, along with a lack of enlightenment, but whatever.  Let me just say that, as a working-class person, and someone who is that close from falling into poverty, I am not yours to take care of.  You don't know what my needs are, and you have no business "taking care" of me.  Thank you.
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Perd Hapley

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Here’s the thing: I can show you working, socialist societies that I wouldn’t mind living in….including America.  Every first world country in the world is socialist to one degree or another.  Simple fact.  I don’t feel the need to defend every single detail of ‘socialism’ because that is not the point.  My point is simply that socialism is a part of modern society, has been a part of society, and will continue to be a part of modern society, and the world has not imploded yet.  If you want to convince me that ‘socialism’ is evil and we would all be better off without it, you’ve got a heck of a burden of proof you need to justify because you are staring down almost every facet of modern first world existence.  A large part of the burden is showing me a society that operates under the principles you advocate, so I can see whether or not I would like to be involved in that society.

Yet vast numbers of people in these socialist nations (like America) live in poverty, with social problems like domestic violence, sexual abuse, drug addiction, lack of education, chronic unemployment and incarceration.  And most of these are the people living in urban centers of the socialist safety net, governed by those most sympathetic to socialism, and most likely to be the recipients of socialist "aid."  Don't tell me the world hasn't imploded.  Tell that to the people living in your socialist paradises.   =(

Now run off and find us a first-world, socialist nation (like America) that "works."   =)
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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If it's examples we're talking here, maybe the socialists can show even one example of an effective, viable, sustainable social welfare system.  

And if it's examples we're looking at, let's look at the vaunted War On Poverty.  We've been fighting this war for 50 years now.  We've spent uncounted trillions of dollars.  We've sacrificed the liberty and the wealth of the younger generations on the alter of socialism.  We've thrown everything but the kitchen sink at the problem of poverty, just as the socialists say we should.

Has poverty been eliminated yet?

How long do we have to watch and wait before declaring the obvious, that the socialist approach isn't working and should be abandoned?  Is 50 years enough, or do we have to wait another 50, 100, 200 years before we recognize the reality that's staring us right in the face?  How much are we expected to lose before we put this insanity away?

Socialism doesn't work.  It hasn't worked in the US.  It hasn't worked in Europe.  It failed spectacularly in Russia, the place where socialism was embraced most strongly.

So, name for me a good example of socialism succeeding.  I dare you.

And in response, I offer the example of the United States (up until the failed New Deal and the Great Society experiments) as a gleaming example of the alternative to socialism.  Liberty and individualism worked for as long as we were willing to use them.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 07:16:50 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »