Author Topic: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub  (Read 8200 times)

roo_ster

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2010, 01:27:23 AM »
The "settlements" (many of which are built on the premise that private property is meaningless) are only possible because of American support. 

I agree, but he'll never do that, because without aid and support the settlements are not possible.

If it wasn't for dependence on the US, you all would not be in the position you're in now, because the folks who wanted colonial expansion would've had no means to act.

These are a complete misreading of US aid and its effects on the Izzies.

To put it simply, if there was no US aid, there would have been more settlements built by the Izzies.  The US aid is part of what buys the US influence in Israeli politics.  It is the USA anteing up to show we have skin in the game.  And, since our material interests in the ME rise & set on petroleum, in has been in our interests to rein the Izzies in and specifically, to act as a brake/moderator on Izzie settlement activity.

As MB points out, US aid (or its lack) is not large enough for a developed country to materially effect their ability to doze & build.  Remember, that aid is for military goods and is only to be spent on military goods made in the USA.  Some of what they buy could be had for a fraction elsewhere.

There are many folk who think we ought to cut the aid and let the Izzies repopulate the West Bank / Judea & Samaria as best and as fast as they can.

Quote from: De Selby
At the current rate, the only possible outcome is that eventually the military balances will change, and the hostile neighbors of Israel will destroy it.  Maybe a hundred years, maybe two, but permanent displacement of Palestinians beyond what's already happened can only have that outcome.

I agree with part of this.  I fully expect Israel to eat a nuke or ten after the tech gets pedestrian enough that Arab Muslims in an Arab Muslim country can manage to produce them on their own, without outside help. That would spell the end of Israel, I expect.  But, the Palestinians will have squat to do with it, either implementation-wise or via the issue of Pali displacement.

First, it will be the ruling class of the country that produces them, not displaced Pali squatters.  Second, the Pali displacement is an a convenient throw-away issue used by these sorts of country to keep their rabble distracted (AKA, "Arab Street.").  The "Arab Street" is dangerous mainly only to subjugated minorities within Arab countries, but pose a moderate threat to their own despots (the ones using the Pali displacement as a distraction).  The "Arab Street" is zero threat to anyone outside their particular country.  They don;t have the reach or wits to brutalize any outside fist & AK range.  The vast majority of Palis rate as "Arab Street," dangerous most of all to fellow Palis and second to Israelis, with whom they live cheek by jowl.

It is the well-educated Muslim with means that is a threat outside the borders of ME dungholes, if past performance is to be examined.

Quote from: De Selby
That is why national sovereignty should not be grounded in a race or culture.
I get your argument (or at least at what you are trying to get at), but you'll need to draft different vocabulary, as "nation" is bound up in race, tribe, culture, family, etc.  "Nation" implies common birth and ancestors.  Blood ties.  If you don't believe me, ask a lexicographer or student of Latin.  Put simply, if national sovereignty is not grounded in race or culture, it is not national sovereignty.

Oh, and your described of multicultural state has been successful largely under only despotic imperial rule.  Liberal and consensual gov't requires the kind of trust provided by, at minimum, a common culture.  The more cultures and diversity of any type found in a polity, the lower the level of trust, the higher the level of friction, and the less liberty, as the gov't steps in and claims space formerly occupied and negotiated over between the citizenry.

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roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2010, 01:40:36 AM »
And by the way, there's no such thing as 'Palestians'. 

Then who are those people that live in Paleste?   :P
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Paddy2010

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2010, 01:44:44 AM »
They're rejects from the rest of the Arab world, Josh, who have the money and resources to take them in and stop their 'suffering'.  It's a scam and a sham designed to discredit Israel and the U.S.   Don't buy it.

De Selby

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2010, 03:36:05 AM »
They're rejects from the rest of the Arab world, Josh, who have the money and resources to take them in and stop their 'suffering'.  It's a scam and a sham designed to discredit Israel and the U.S.   Don't buy it.

haha, so how was this "scam" invented?  Why did the early zionists call Israel "Palestine" if there were no palestinians in it???
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roo_ster

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2010, 09:14:20 AM »
As to why BHO treated BN like a red-headed stepchild, I think BHO just plain does not like Jews & therefore really doesn't like a country comprised mostly of Jews.  The building/settlement announcement is an excuse to treat BN like a POS and not having to pretend.   

Antisemitism has been ingrained in every well-educated Muslim of ME or Asian decent I have had the opportunity to get to know, save only a few Turks.  BHO was raised by such folk when he was a child in Asia and, no doubt, learned antisemitism along with other cultural tidbits that could be celebrated as "diversity(1)" in non-white folks.

Then, ol' Barry Obama joins Wright's church, where some old-fashioned black antisemitism & conspiracy theory is preached from the pulpit, with nary a peep from BHO, who is going along to get along.  Besides, he needs to burnish his Black American bona fides, having zero blood or cultural roots in the black American community.

In sum, BHO is a non-stereotypical black antisemite, having hoovered up two different flavors (Muslim & Black) (2).





(1) For white people to hold such views, is not "diversity," but racsim & antisemitism.

(2) The stereotypical black antisemite being Jeremiah Wright.
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roo_ster

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lupinus

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2010, 09:24:15 AM »
To me it's not so much an issue of Pro-, Ant-, and anything else Israel. The specific issue doesn't matter to me.

What annoys me is the snub and manor in which Obama treated the PM of a nation America is supposed to be allied with. If he can bow before other foreign leaders that wouldn't blink an eye over our destruction, except for maybe the loss of a huge market, he can at least show basic courtesy, respect, and protocol to Israel.

Right or wrong the PM of a friendly nation deserves at least that much, IMO.
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roo_ster

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2010, 09:48:05 AM »
haha, so how was this "scam" invented?  Why did the early zionists call Israel "Palestine" if there were no palestinians in it???

The term Palestine descends from the term "Philistine", folks who occupied the coast thereabouts in ancient times and colonized other places (Carthage being most notable).

After the Philistines declined & were absorbed into the local cultures, the term went out of use until the Romans had a Jew problem of their own.  The pesky Jews, always vomiting forth a messiah here and ragtag war leader there to stir up trouble, were to be disassociated from the territory as best possible.  Hence, the resurrection of the term "Palestine," despite there being no Philistines on which to apply it...or more likely locations to take such a name (Carthage & environs).

After Rome went into the dustbin of history, the term once again went into disuse for a good, long, while.  For instance, the territory of Israel & the West Bank were part of other provinces in the Ottoman Empire, namely Syria & Egypt.  Jerusalem had a mucky-muck, but the rest of "Palestine" was considered merely part of other Arab provinces.  (I haven't searched out use of the term in Muslim caliphates previous to the Ottomans, perhaps someone else would like to pick up that task?)

The next major appearance is when the Brits & Frogs dismember the Ottoman Empire.  The Brits assign the term to what we know as the entirety of Jordan & Israel. I find more references to Jews in that area referring to themselves as "Palestinians" than Arabs, but that may be a function of Arab illiteracy and unfamiliarity with European languages & publications.  (There is some use of the terms Palestine & Palestinian in the late 19th century, but it is used to refer to all inhabitants of the general area, not just Arabs.)

After Israel is birthed, there seems to be less use of the term until Arafat resurrects it as a club against the Jews again, Roman-style, for the PLO.  In my readings about the birth of modern Israel, I see the Arabs referred to as "Arabs" and not Palestinians, which is more likely applied to Jews at the time.  This includes Nasser's book.

Of course, any data to fill in holes in my readings would be appreciated, especially post the Roman/Byzantine times.
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2010, 10:02:39 AM »
Quote
As to why BHO treated BN like a red-headed stepchild, I think BHO just plain does not like Jews & therefore really doesn't like a country comprised mostly of Jews

Or... maybe he's just a Leftist?
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sanglant

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2010, 11:15:49 AM »
Or... maybe he's just a Leftist?
imposable, after all obama says he isn't a leftist. :angel:

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2010, 12:53:44 PM »
I think it's just inexperience and incompetence on the part of Barry.  He doesn't know how to be a head of state.

Barry has made similarly bad gaffs towards European leaders.

longeyes

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2010, 01:26:31 PM »
Obama's a snubber, unless he's bowing to some potentate.  Israel is a nettle in the Great Caliphate, in his mind, and the Europeans did great mischief in Africa, so they're bad too.  Yes, it's "simplistic" to read the doings of an elevated, sophisticated mind (I'm just going by his rep in lib circles, not my own view) like Obama's in raw enmity toward Jews and "colonialists," but sometimes what's simple is also what's true.  Israel, warts and all,l is not what's wrong with the Middle East, and if and when Obama finally gets Israel to vanish the Middle East isn't going to turn into a paradise any more than Obama's America is.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 05:32:24 PM by longeyes »
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MechAg94

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2010, 02:31:25 PM »
Did Obama at least give him a DVD Collector's Set?   :lol:
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agricola

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2010, 07:41:05 PM »
To me it's not so much an issue of Pro-, Ant-, and anything else Israel. The specific issue doesn't matter to me.

What annoys me is the snub and manor in which Obama treated the PM of a nation America is supposed to be allied with. If he can bow before other foreign leaders that wouldn't blink an eye over our destruction, except for maybe the loss of a huge market, he can at least show basic courtesy, respect, and protocol to Israel.

Right or wrong the PM of a friendly nation deserves at least that much, IMO.

No offence, but the treatment afforded Bibi was far better than he deserved (given that he had just made Biden's visit utterly pointless, as well as making him look even more ridiculous than he makes himself look), and far more support was given to Israel anyway than we - who after all are your allies who actually fight alongside you - got over the recent Falklands spat. 

Quote from: jfruser
After Rome went into the dustbin of history, the term once again went into disuse for a good, long, while.  For instance, the territory of Israel & the West Bank were part of other provinces in the Ottoman Empire, namely Syria & Egypt.  Jerusalem had a mucky-muck, but the rest of "Palestine" was considered merely part of other Arab provinces.  (I haven't searched out use of the term in Muslim caliphates previous to the Ottomans, perhaps someone else would like to pick up that task?)

Yes - it was called the Jund of Filastin, up until the chaos caused by and following the Crusades.  The name "Palestine", or related terms, is of considerable antiquity and it is nonsensical to pretend that it doesnt really exist, just because it is currently politically convienient to do so.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2010, 09:15:44 PM »
They're rejects from the rest of the Arab world, Josh,

I didn't know we were on a first-name basis.   =)
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De Selby

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2010, 09:27:58 PM »
I love this - someone deliberately undoes American policy in the region, and now we're speculating that it's just Obama's amateurism that led to that person being snubbed at the white house?

Maybe Bibi got the treatment because he celebrated defiance of an American plan.  That seems to be the obvious answer.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2010, 09:58:04 PM »
Correct.  As a leftist, Obama is allowed to have American policies that our allies should go along with.  When Bush was in office, America's plans were all hegemonic plots that our allies should be brave enough to stand up to.   =)
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2010, 10:02:11 PM »
I didn't know we were on a first-name basis.   =)

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RevDisk

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2010, 08:07:01 AM »
Wasn't it the libs who said that obama would fix America's reputation around the world?  Oh, that's right, only with communist countries.

ah...  Would it be epic bad taste to point out that Israel has a very strong communist community?  And I don't mean that in a "insulting" way, I mean, members of the Communist Party.


This is about "settlements?" You kidding?  Obama will force Israel to compromise its safety and future to get a "peace accord" that will end in mass slaughter--though perhaps not the slaughter Obama envisions.  Obama's vanity, petulance, and sense of unchallengeable rectitude are the issue here.  We cannot afford a petty President, especially now.

I'm sure Obama will be equally miffed when Americans refuse to cede big chunks of their nation to the hard-working folk of Aztlan with their persuasive historical claims.

Settlements have absolutely no direct tie to Israeli national security.  That is like arguing your sock is directly tied to modern space travel.  Most settlements are a handful of crazies that decided God told them to set up a ghetto looking trailer park on someone else's land.   Some are exactly that.  Trailer parks with trash everywhere.  Others have actually grown into full cities and drove the majority of the crazies out. 



The "settlements" (many of which are built on the premise that private property is meaningless) are only possible because of American support.  It's absurd to pretend that the US shouldn't have any say about them, when it's US backing that makes the entire project feasible in the first place.

Now he's antagonizing the only economic power in the world that provides Israel with any meaningful support.  Right on Bibi.
Yes, they do, and in one sense the entire country is a settlement.  But the post-67 expansion, on this scale, would not have been sustainable without US support.  That's what I was referring to.  Israel would have been forced to accept something like the two-state solution along the 1967 line a long time ago if it were without the protection of the United States.

That probably would've been a whole lot better for Israelis and Palestinians as a whole.  Personally, I'm now drawn to the one state solution: there ought to be a government that protects everyone's rights equally, and everyone ought to participate in it there.  I don't accept the notion that states should be racial or cultural expressions of identity; they should exist only to perform limited functions in service to individuals.

I suspect you adjust what you perceive to be the reality of the situation on the ground to your ideology, instead of the other way around.   To answer pretty much every single statement you have made...  Uhm.  No.   No American support has not created the settlements.  Hell not even Israeli government support as done so.  As for your "let's be one big happy family, because folks shouldn't be allowed to have their own government" idea, that would cause significantly more issues than currently experienced.  Not everyone wants to play nice, SS.


I agree with part of this.  I fully expect Israel to eat a nuke or ten after the tech gets pedestrian enough that Arab Muslims in an Arab Muslim country can manage to produce them on their own, without outside help. That would spell the end of Israel, I expect.  But, the Palestinians will have squat to do with it, either implementation-wise or via the issue of Pali displacement.

I doubt it.  Israel has between 100-200 nukes and has unofficially put out word it will swap nukes should anyone start lobbing them.




Anyone else notice a strikingly high percentage of "da Jooz" (as opposed to the more specific and accurate "Israelis") and "Obama is a secret Muslim" comments in this thread?   Look, I'm hardly a fan of a lot of the Isreali govt activities and insanity (I don't have anything against Israelis or Jews, which are not anywhere near the same thing) and I'm certainly not a fan of Obama.  There are plenty of reasons to dislike both entities without starting to wander into territory that is more significantly appropriate to Stormfront than APS. 
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Reports: Netanyahu 'Humiliated' by Obama Snub
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2010, 02:14:31 PM »
Whatever Bibi might have done to p!ss off the "O", or what you might think of the PM,  it is still degrading to the office to use childish snubs against our allies while being chummy with, or bowing and scraping to tinpot dicktators.

Obama is an embarrassment to this country and the principles it was founded on.
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