Author Topic: Polish President and other top officials dead in plane crash (Read 6876 times)

wmenorr67 · « **on:** April 10, 2010, 12:21:28 PM »

It is on all the major news sources. Several aides and military officials were also on board.

RevDisk · « **Reply #1 on:** April 10, 2010, 01:12:31 PM »

Ouch. Most likely an accident, he was flying on a Tupelov Tu-154.

International Air Transport Association statistics show that Western-built jets crash at a rate of .81 (one loss per 1.2 million flights). Eastern-built planes at 12.11 (one loss per 83,000 flights). It's not just the planes themselves of course. It's also the infrastructure, strictness of regulations, general levels of training, etc. I have a feeling the Poland's President was simply and sadly brought down by lack of strict maintenance.

I hope PZL Mielec wasn't the maintenance contractor...

charby · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2010, 01:28:58 PM »

Looks like pilot error this early in the game.

I hope that Poland can swifty restablish leadership for their nation.

RocketMan · « **Reply #3 on:** April 10, 2010, 01:34:29 PM »

According to news reports, an alternate landing site was suggested to the pilot by ATC. There was fog at the intended destination. He elected to land, anyway.

drewtam · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2010, 01:36:24 PM »

Honestly, when I read the article, I felt like there was some Russian funny business going on. It just felt like there was some sort of message being sent.

The Polish and Russian gov'ts have not gotten along since the 90s; they were on route to a memorial of Polish massacres at the hands of the Russians, in Russian airspace. Putin was supposed to meet them there. Putin is the head of the investigative committee. Poland isn't a 3rd world country, and it was thier "air force 1" flying. Not some shoestring airliner.

It just doesn't add up to me.

RevDisk · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2010, 01:39:23 PM »

Ok, read up a bit more and started calling Polish aviation folks.

The dead are the following: Kaczysnki (president), his wife, Aleksander Szczyglo (Head of National Security Bureau), Jerzy Szmajdzinski (deputy parliament speaker), Andrzej Kremer (Deputy Foreign Minister), Gen. Franciszek Gagor (army chief of staff), Slawomir Skrzypek (National Bank of Poland), Janusz Kurtyka — (National Remembrance Institute, national anti-communist organization), some lawmakers, aids, priests, etc.

It crashed in Smolensk, Russia. Cause is currently thought to be fog on the landing approach and the pilot error. The last overhaul was done by Aviakor in Samara, Russia in December.

Of all the ironies, the plane was on the way to the Katyn massacre site. Putin has gone to the crash site and is "heading" the investigation in person. Considering that a huge chunk of the Polish leadership just died in Russia, on the way to a Russian atrocity site, this is not exactly surprising.

RevDisk · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2010, 01:44:09 PM »

Quote from: drewtam on April 10, 2010, 01:36:24 PM

The Polish and Russian gov'ts have not gotten along since the 90s; they were on route to a memorial of Polish massacres at the hands of the Russians, in Russian airspace. Putin was supposed to meet them there. Putin is the head of the investigative committee. Poland isn't a 3rd world country, and it was thier "air force 1" flying. Not some shoestring airliner.

Actually, this is more or less exactly what it was. The Presidential Tupolev Tu-154 was supposed to be retired, but there were funding issues.

Yes, it's REALLY friggin bad news that it crashed on Russian soil. And just about the WORST friggin place it could have crashed on Russian soil was at Katyn.

No country on the planet does the quality work of 89th Airlift Wing does for Air Force one and HMX-1 does for Marine One. The levels of maintenance done on POTUS aircraft is amazing. Pretty much every consumable part is replaced at half of normal manufacturer suggested intervals. It's not a good idea to compare 89th and HMX-1 to every other country's Presidential aircraft maintenance unit.

lupinus · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2010, 01:50:00 PM »

Quote from: drewtam on April 10, 2010, 01:36:24 PM

Honestly, when I read the article, I felt like there was some Russian funny business going on. It just felt like there was some sort of message being sent.

My initial thought as well given bad feelings, especially when Eastern Europe snubbed the Russians with missile defense prior to Obama leaving them hanging.

However, there's currently no evidence of it and I've lost that feeling once the initial headline reaction passed.

tyme · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2010, 03:54:39 PM »

Can a Tu-154 land on autopilot? Did that airport not have the necessary nav beacons?

RevDisk · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2010, 03:56:28 PM »

Quote from: lupinus on April 10, 2010, 01:50:00 PM

My initial thought as well given bad feelings, especially when Eastern Europe snubbed the Russians with missile defense prior to Obama leaving them hanging.

However, there's currently no evidence of it and I've lost that feeling once the initial headline reaction passed.

Once I read that the pilot tried to land a Tu-154 on a non-ILS airfield in the fog after ATC told him to divert to Moscow or Minsk, that was all I needed.

tyme · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2010, 04:01:00 PM »

WTF? Who was flying that aircraft? I'd be interested in the crew's service records.

lee n. field · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2010, 04:18:03 PM »

Quote from: wmenorr67 on April 10, 2010, 12:21:28 PM

It is on all the major news sources. Several aides and military officials were also on board.

I've seen the "we're in teh end-times" nutters chattering about it. Appearently it matches something in some Joel Rosenberg thriller.

(I am not kidding.)

Balog · « **Reply #12 on:** April 10, 2010, 04:32:36 PM »

Too bad, Poland has been a pretty staunch ally. And that's a big swath of their top leadership. I wonder what the procedures for establishing new leadership are in Poland?

White Horseradish · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2010, 04:52:50 PM »

The crash, apparently, happened on their 4th landing attempt. Looks like they were too low and clipped a tree with a wing. They hit just a few hundred feet short of the runway. On one of the Russian boards there is a guy who said he can see the approach from his window in normal visibility (he couldn't at the time of the crash). He heard the crash and a sudden change in engine sound just before, like the pilot saw ground and tried to pull up.

The speculation at this point is that the pilot was ordered by the brass to land. There was a previous incident where the Polish presidential plane did not land at the intended destination because the pilot deemed it unsafe and the president was publicly displeased. He may have got a more agreeable pilot after that. Incidentally, Minsk was a politically unacceptable place for them to go since Poland recently declared that they would not allow the Belarussian president to enter Poland.

tyme · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2010, 04:57:04 PM »

Oh, lovely. Did the Polish president and other government officials stay in a Holiday Inn last night, if they were in fact ordering the Captain around?

gunsmith · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2010, 05:38:40 PM »

Putin investigating this? Isn't there a Fox somewhere investigating a raid at a Hen house?
Isn't it true that the Russians killed more the a few muck raking journalist and whistle blowers?
imho, there's something really suspicious about this.

White Horseradish · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2010, 07:06:51 PM »

It's fairly reasonable to have the highest official you can come up with investigating the death of most of a foreign government. I also doubt that the Russian government would do something so brazen. Soviet Union might have, but it's a much less powerful country now.

Holiday Inn is a definite possibility, even if they didn't order the pilot around. Seriously, packing that much brass into a single plane - what could possibly be wrong with that? Incidentally, Russia learned this lesson somewhere around 1980 when a plane crash killed the commander of a fleet and his entire staff. High ranking officers and their next-in-line subordinates are not allowed to share flights.

The latest news is that flight recorders have been recovered. No word on what they contain yet.

Tallpine · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2010, 07:29:47 PM »

Quote

No country on the planet does the quality work of 89th Airlift Wing does for Air Force one and HMX-1 does for Marine One. The levels of maintenance done on POTUS aircraft is amazing. Pretty much every consumable part is replaced at half of normal manufacturer suggested intervals. It's not a good idea to compare 89th and HMX-1 to every other country's Presidential aircraft maintenance unit.

I was just thinking that the US could save a lot of money in these hard times by contracting out that work to Russia ...

S. Williamson · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2010, 07:40:35 PM »

Quote from: Tallpine on April 10, 2010, 07:29:47 PM

I was just thinking that the US could save a lot of money in these hard times by contracting out that work to Russia ...

They could save a lot of money by employing Americans willing to work at reduced pay, too.

Sorry, it's a sore spot for me.

stevelyn · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2010, 08:02:43 PM »

Quote from: Dionysusigma on April 10, 2010, 07:40:35 PM

They could save a lot of money by employing Americans willing to work at reduced pay, too.

Sorry, it's a sore spot for me.

I think you missed an important point in there.

Regardless of how suspicious it may look, those airplanes are still flown by human pilots capable of human error. Even the pilots who fly for national heads of state.

RevDisk · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2010, 08:31:19 PM »

Quote from: Tallpine on April 10, 2010, 07:29:47 PM

I was just thinking that the US could save a lot of money in these hard times by contracting out that work to Russia ...

They just about did, Tallpine. They wanted to buy VH-71 as the replacement POTUS helicopters, which is a AgustaWestland AW101 (formerly EH101) which would actually be made in Yeovil, England and Vergiate, Italy. The price tag went up to nearly half a billion per airframe, at only a few aircraft delivered.

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2010, 09:44:37 PM »

Quote

I think you missed an important point in there.

You beat me to it.

Tallpine · « **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2010, 09:55:37 PM »

Quote from: RevDisk on April 10, 2010, 08:31:19 PM

They just about did, Tallpine. They wanted to buy VH-71 as the replacement POTUS helicopters, which is a AgustaWestland AW101 (formerly EH101) which would actually be made in Yeovil, England and Vergiate, Italy. The price tag went up to nearly half a billion per airframe, at only a few aircraft delivered.

Well, I actually did some work for Westland (indirectly, but for one of their products).

But that really wasn't my point. A few people got it ...

S. Williamson · « **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2010, 10:04:01 PM »

I get blinded by rage easily.

Boomhauer · « **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2010, 10:44:37 PM »

I wrote my thesis on the Katyn Massacre. There is still so much anger between Poland and Russia over Katyn/the other massacres...

Damn, this is just strange...

News:

Author Topic: Polish President and other top officials dead in plane crash (Read 6876 times)