Author Topic: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?  (Read 6355 times)

roo_ster

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What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« on: April 23, 2010, 12:42:25 PM »





The article goes into the history of the label as applied to BHO and the disingenuous way it has been denied, something we have seen here at APS.  The author then goes into what has been meant by the term "socialism" over time, its various incarnations, and the urges underpinning the socialist mindset.  The author comes to the conclusion that BHO is a socialist in the mirror image of the way the original neoconservatives were conservatives.

[The article is much too long to post in its entirety.  It is worth every minute one spends reading it, so I would heartily suggest mashing the link.  I will post only tidbits.]



http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/what-kind-of-socialist-is-barack-obama--15421?page=all

What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?

Now, when conservatives dare to suggest, tentatively or otherwise, that Obama or his party might be in the thrall of some variant of socialism, they are derided for it...

...Newsweek editor Jon Meacham mocked the president’s critics for considering Obama to be a “crypto-socialist.” By these lights, socialism is a very sophisticated, highly technical, and historically precise phenomenon that has nothing to do with the politics or ideas of the present moment, and conservatives who invoke the term to describe Obama’s policies and ideas are at best wildly imprecise and at worst purposefully rabble-rousing. And yet when liberals themselves discuss socialism and its relation to Obama, the definition of the term “socialist” seems to loosen up considerably. Only four months before Meacham’s mockery of conservatives, he co-authored a cover story for his magazine titled “We’re All Socialists Now...”

...Surely if fans of President Obama’s program feel free to call it socialist, critics may be permitted to do likewise...

...But is it correct, as an objective matter, to call Obama’s agenda “socialist”? That depends on what one means by socialism.  The term has so many associations and has been used to describe so many divergent political and economic approaches that the only meaning sure to garner consensus is an assertive statism applied in the larger cause of “equality,” usually through redistributive economic policies that involve a bias toward taking an intrusive and domineering role in the workings of the private sector...

...By concentrating on the notion of reform rather than revolution, progressives can work to attract both ideologues of the Left and moderates at the same time. This allows moderates to be seduced by their own rhetoric about the virtues of a specific reform as an end in itself. Meanwhile, more sophisticated ideologues understand that they are supporting a camel’s-nose strategy...

...often goes by the name of “social democracy,” though it is perhaps best understood as an American variant of Fabianism, the late-Victorian British socialist tendency. “There will never come a moment when we can say ‘now Socialism is established,’” explained Sidney Webb, Britain’s leading Fabian, in 1887...

...The political virtue of Fabianism is that since “socialism” is always around the corner and has never been fully implemented, it can never be held to blame for the failings of the statist policies that have already been enacted. The cure is always more incremental socialism. And the disease is, always and forever, laissez-faire capitalism...

...“Social-ism” is something different. It is an orientation, a way of thinking about politics and governance—it is oriented toward government control but is not monomaniacally committed to it as the be-all and end-all...

...But at a far more important level, “social-ism” is a fundamentally religious impulse, a utopian yearning to create a perfect society unconstrained by the natural trade-offs of mortal life...

...one of the key liberal techniques for fending off accusations of socialism, and discrediting those who make the charge, is to equate Marxism with socialism and then insist (often correctly) that since liberals aren’t Marxists, anyone who says liberals are socialists is a fool or a partisan ideologue...

...The contribution Marxism made to the socialism from which it arose was to offer a pseudo-scientific gloss to the ill-defined urges and impulses of those who despised the rising system of capitalism and the growing middle class to which it gave birth...

...But at its core, socialism remains a rationalization for a fundamentally tribal and premodern understanding of economics...

...very few successful socialist propagandists ever bothered to focus on the empirical case for socialism...its preachers testify about “social justice,” “humane policies,” “fairness,” and “equality.” In short, socialism—be it Marxist, Fabian, nationalistic, progressive—is merely one of many pseudo-empirical rationalizations of the deeper psychological impulse...

...It’s worth recalling that both Marx and Engels came to their socialism via their atheism, not the other way around. But in America in the early 20th century, “social-ism” most powerfully manifested itself as Christian progressivism...

...The promise and purpose of “social-ism” are most obviously on display in the worldview of environmentalism...

...Obama is no Marxist. This is a point lost on some who like to highlight the president’s indebtedness to the ideas of the late radical Saul Alinsky, who was no Marxist either. Rather, Alinsky was a radical leftist and a proponent of “social-ism” before Blair named it...

..T.R.’s [Teddy Roosevelt's] “super-socialism”: “It is not the Marxian Socialism. Much that Karl Marx taught is rejected by present-day Socialists. Mr. Roosevelt achieves the redistribution of wealth in a simpler and easier way”—by soaking the rich and yoking big business to the state. “It has all the simplicity of theft and much of its impudence,” the [New York] Times asserted...

...President Obama’s health-care plan is a pristine example of this approach...

...Obama still scoffs at the suggestion that he is a socialist largely to delegitimize his opponents...He reserves for himself the mantle of technocrat, disinterested, pragmatic, pushed to use the powers of government by the failings of his predecessor and the madness of the free market...

...Denying that you are an ideologue is not the same thing as proving the point. And certainly Obama’s insistence that ideology is something only his critics suffer from is no defense when stacked against the evidence of his actions...

...What do we call Obama’s “social-ism”? John Judis’s formulation—“liberal socialism”—is perfectly serviceable, and so is “social democracy” or, for that matter, simply “progressivism.” My own, perhaps too playful, suggestion would be neosocialism...

...as neoconservatism matured, it did become a distinct approach to domestic politics, one that sought to reign in government excess while pursuing conservative ends within the confines of the welfare state.

In many respects, Barack Obama’s neo-socialism is neoconservatism’s mirror image...

...While neoconservatism erred on the side of trusting the nongovernmental sphere—mediating institutions like markets, civil society, and the family—neosocialism gives the benefit of the doubt to government. Whereas neoconservatism was inherently skeptical of the ability of social planners to repeal the law of unintended consequences, Obama’s ideal is to leave social policy in their hands and to bemoan the interference of the merely political...

Whereas Ronald Reagan saw the answers to our problems in the private sphere (“in this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem”), Obama seeks to expand confidence in, and reliance on, government wherever and whenever he can, albeit within the confines of a generally Center-Right nation and the “unfortunate” demands of democracy.

As with Webb’s Fabian socialism, one will never be able to say of Obama’s developing doctrine, “now socialism has arrived.” On the night the House of Representatives passed the health-care bill, Obama said, “This legislation will not fix everything that ails our health care system. But it moves us decisively in the right direction.” Then, speaking specifically of another vote to be taken in the Senate but also cleverly to those not yet satisfied with what had been achieved, he added, “Now, as momentous as this day is, it’s not the end of this journey.”

Under Obama’s neosocialism, that journey will be endless, and no matter how far down the road toward socialism we go, he will always be there to tell the increasingly beleaguered marchers that we have only taken a “critical first step.”
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Waitone

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 01:44:55 PM »
He is not a garden variety socialist.  He is a different variant with which we in the west are not familiar.  Socialism is just one of the many political and social facets that constitutes this president.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/obama_the_african_colonial.html 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 07:38:35 PM »
I haven't read the article yet, but I'm pretty sure it is racist. 
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longeyes

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 11:17:06 PM »
We've seen his kind of socialist before--in various "post-colonial" autocrats who claim to be the saviors of their people.  He wouldn't be the first would-be dictator with a Harvard degree.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 01:10:50 AM »
I haven't said this since election season, but here it is again - he's dreamy.   :laugh:
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taurusowner

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 03:00:03 AM »
I haven't read the article yet, but I'm pretty sure it is racist. 

Any criticism of BHO is automatically racist, you know that.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 03:06:41 AM »
I haven't said this since election season, but here it is again - he's dreamy.   :laugh:

Dreamy in a Freddy Kruger meets Karl Marx nightmarish sort of way?

KD5NRH

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 03:16:33 AM »
Dreamy in a Freddy Kruger meets Karl Marx nightmarish sort of way?

I was thinking more of a flying neon paisley alligators sort of way - you know, as in "this crap really shouldn't be happening."


Perd Hapley

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 08:45:57 AM »
Yeah, that second one. 
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longeyes

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 01:40:31 PM »
Obama's heart lies in Africa; that is where his models are.  He is going to live out his father's dreams. 
"Domari nolo."

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Boomhauer

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2010, 07:04:46 PM »
Obama's heart lies in Africa; that is where his models are.  He is going to live out his father's dreams. 

Sweet, I'll get a job sending spam emails out...and maybe do some pirating on the side...

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mellestad

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2010, 12:39:07 PM »
Is there an overarching point to the article, or is it just "Any ideology that includes elements of socialism is on a slippery slope to Marxist failure."?

The only reason educated people complain about politicians being called 'socialist' is that the people calling them that are usually using the word like a curse word, rather than a statement of political ideology.  And on top of that no-one familiar with the actual definitions of political ideologies would call Obama (or any modern politician, really) a socialist without some sort of qualifier.

I would agree that he has some leanings towards democratic socialism, but he still supports a free market too much to call him that.  The Swedes would never elect him, he is too conservative and capitalist.

Honestly, I don't get the brew-ha-ha.  Pure socialism, as an ideology, has been as dead as Marx for a long time...no-one supports it anymore (at the state level), not even modern 'communists' in China...and that is what bugs me.  Calling any modern politician a socialist is just setting up a straw man because every viable strain of political ideology that includes elements of socialism also includes property ownership and a free market of some sort.

You need to be specific and accurate in your terminology if you want to criticize in a persuasive manner. 
Wikipedia sucks, but it is a start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_ideologies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Economic_ideologies

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2010, 12:40:23 PM »
I was thinking more of a flying neon paisley alligators sort of way - you know, as in "this crap really shouldn't be happening."


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

longeyes

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2010, 12:46:45 PM »
Socialism is a first-world movement; what we have unfolding before us is a third-world movement.
"Domari nolo."

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roo_ster

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2010, 03:31:46 PM »
Is there an overarching point to the article, or is it just "Any ideology that includes elements of socialism is on a slippery slope to Marxist failure."?

The only reason educated people complain about politicians being called 'socialist' is that the people calling them that are usually using the word like a curse word, rather than a statement of political ideology.  And on top of that no-one familiar with the actual definitions of political ideologies would call Obama (or any modern politician, really) a socialist without some sort of qualifier.

I would agree that he has some leanings towards democratic socialism, but he still supports a free market too much to call him that.  The Swedes would never elect him, he is too conservative and capitalist.

Honestly, I don't get the brew-ha-ha.  Pure socialism, as an ideology, has been as dead as Marx for a long time...no-one supports it anymore (at the state level), not even modern 'communists' in China...and that is what bugs me.  Calling any modern politician a socialist is just setting up a straw man because every viable strain of political ideology that includes elements of socialism also includes property ownership and a free market of some sort.

You need to be specific and accurate in your terminology if you want to criticize in a persuasive manner. 
Wikipedia sucks, but it is a start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_ideologies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Economic_ideologies

Mell:

Might want to read the article before comment.  Pretty obvious you didn't. 

Or, at least didn't read it in English.(0)



(0) That's a joke, BTW. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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mellestad

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2010, 07:04:07 PM »
Mell:

Might want to read the article before comment.  Pretty obvious you didn't.  

Or, at least didn't read it in English.(0)



(0) That's a joke, BTW.  

I skimmed it.  Which is why I asked, "Is there an overarching point to that article or...."

Then I rambled, as I am prone to do.  If you don't want to answer my question there isn't any reason to snipe at me.

roo_ster

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2010, 07:21:16 PM »
I skimmed it.  Which is why I asked, "Is there an overarching point to that article or...."

Then I rambled, as I am prone to do.  If you don't want to answer my question there isn't any reason to snipe at me.

Dude, that ain't sniping.  That is a gentle hint to read the article to have your questions answered & ante up for the discussion.  Nothing personal, I just don't want to have to copypasta the entirety here at APS.  Plus, it is difficult to discuss a topic when some of the discussants aren't up to speed. (FTR, I don't consider the article Holy Writ, but it does address a topic that has been knocking about for some time with some seriousness & rigor.)

Head on down to the tech forum http://slashdot.org/ and ask about content that plainly presented in the article.  You'll get sniped and learn acronyms like, "RTFA" and "RTFM."  Even that is pretty mild relative to lots of other places.  Ask Microbalrog for an introduction, I'm afraid they are a bit too feisty for my tastes.
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roo_ster

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Silver Bullet

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2010, 10:16:36 PM »
As of today ... 1000 days left.

Will the Republic survive ?

taurusowner

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2010, 03:58:31 AM »
As of today ... 1000 days left.

Will the Republic survive ?

Survive those 1000 days?  Probably.
Survive in the long run? No.

mellestad

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2010, 03:05:37 PM »
Dude, that ain't sniping.  That is a gentle hint to read the article to have your questions answered & ante up for the discussion.  Nothing personal, I just don't want to have to copypasta the entirety here at APS.  Plus, it is difficult to discuss a topic when some of the discussants aren't up to speed. (FTR, I don't consider the article Holy Writ, but it does address a topic that has been knocking about for some time with some seriousness & rigor.)

Head on down to the tech forum http://slashdot.org/ and ask about content that plainly presented in the article.  You'll get sniped and learn acronyms like, "RTFA" and "RTFM."  Even that is pretty mild relative to lots of other places.  Ask Microbalrog for an introduction, I'm afraid they are a bit too feisty for my tastes.

I read /. already, thanks though.

I have just read the entire article, and my question is still unanswered. 

Near as I can tell, his point is "Socialism=bad, Obama=Socialist therefore, Obama=bad". 

He gives history sound bites, he drops quotes, he asserts, asserts, asserts.  He isn't making a case for Obama being bad or for modern liberal socialism or democratic socialism being bad, he is just shouting.

He mentions the different flavors of socialism but he never defines why they are separate from traditional socialism.  Then he creates, on the spot, a negative definition of socialism that no socialist of any flavor would accept and he swings away at that straw man for the rest of the article.

My questions stand.  If there is a point beyond my original post, I would be interested to hear it.  That is why I posted, to see if you got something meaningful and enlightening out of the article, or if it is just a intuitive preaching to the choir kind of thing.

MechAg94

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2010, 05:28:31 PM »
I sort of think of Obama as a statist.  He seems to want to be autocratic about things or regulate them heavily.  He doesn't seem to believe in the idea of free market self-regulation at all.
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MechAg94

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2010, 05:30:04 PM »
I would almost say that if there was any relation to the old political types, he would be more fascist than socialist. 
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roo_ster

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2010, 05:44:15 PM »
I read /. already, thanks though.

I have just read the entire article, and my question is still unanswered. 

Near as I can tell, his point is "Socialism=bad, Obama=Socialist therefore, Obama=bad". 

He gives history sound bites, he drops quotes, he asserts, asserts, asserts.  He isn't making a case for Obama being bad or for modern liberal socialism or democratic socialism being bad, he is just shouting.

He mentions the different flavors of socialism but he never defines why they are separate from traditional socialism.  Then he creates, on the spot, a negative definition of socialism that no socialist of any flavor would accept and he swings away at that straw man for the rest of the article.

My questions stand.  If there is a point beyond my original post, I would be interested to hear it.  That is why I posted, to see if you got something meaningful and enlightening out of the article, or if it is just a intuitive preaching to the choir kind of thing.


Maybe you didn't like the article, but your question
Quote
Is there an overarching point to the article, or is it just "Any ideology that includes elements of socialism is on a slippery slope to Marxist failure."?
most certainly was answered, if you read the article. 
1. There is a thesis to the article.
2. The author explicitly declared BHO not a marxist.
3. The merits of marxism as a successful economic policy were not discussed.

The author also described differences between some flavors of socialism and how they might pertain to BHO. 

I am sorry you were unable to pick that up.  I had hoped you might provide an interesting perspective.



I would almost say that if there was any relation to the old political types, he would be more fascist than socialist. 

Fascism is a sub-set/variant of socialism, so there will be some similarities.

I am not convinced BHO is a fascist due to the lack of both militarism and nationalism on the part of BHO.  He shows an aversion to both the military and love of country...though he sure does seem fond of the state apparatus.
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roo_ster

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MechAg94

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2010, 05:49:50 PM »
That is a good point on militarism and nationalism.  I wasn't thinking about that, but those were key parts of those regimes. 

I was listening to Medved right now and this subject has come up.  He asked the question of whether it was Obama that was a radical leftist or was it the Congressional Democrat leadership that are the radical leftists?  It is Pelosi and Reid and their buddies that are writing and pushing all this legislation.  Obama is certainly a leftist, but I don't know quite how radical he really is.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What Kind of Socialist Is Barack Obama?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2010, 05:53:11 PM »
Yeah, I kinda think nationalism is a necessary ingredient of fascism.  Obama is definitely not pro-America in any fashion, and so I'm not willing to call him a fascist.

It is an interesting article, though.  The question of just what kind of -ist is Obama is a good one.  I don't think he fits any of the strict traditional definitions too clearly.  Most of the socialists, fascists, Marxists, commies, etc have all had at least some element of trying to benefit their nations, even if their methods were misguided and their personal characters were marked by power-lust and greed.  I'm simply not convinced that Obama has America's best interests at heart.