Author Topic: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?  (Read 52976 times)

roo_ster

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #175 on: May 08, 2010, 10:47:26 PM »
If the problem with illegals is that they cost so much, the easy solution is to choose not to pay for them.

Hard to do that.  Do it for long enough and the tax-man brings humorless men with guns to negotiate with .40 cal persuasiveness.

In the mean time, another solution is for the employers of illegal aliens to grow a sense of morality, stop employing them, privatizing the profits, and socializing the costs & screwing their neighbors good & hard by dumping the cost of their health care,education, police, etc. on those tax-paying neighbors.

Illegal aliens, for all their law-breaking and messing of the American nest, I can sympathize with.  I sucks where they came from and America is better.  Those who employ them, however, get no sympathy from me, as they deliberately screw over their fellow tax-paying neighbors. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #176 on: May 09, 2010, 04:17:54 AM »
Given how hard said neighbors screw over said businesspeople...
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roo_ster

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #177 on: May 09, 2010, 02:11:09 PM »
Given how hard said neighbors screw over said businesspeople...

Your statement is ambiguous.  FTR, it is business folk with retarded business plans that require illegal alien labor who are screwing over their neighbors.  If one's business plan requires both violating federal law and giving it to your neighbors good & hard sans lube, perhaps a businessman with ethics ought to figure out some other way to earn an honest buck.
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roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #178 on: May 09, 2010, 05:02:11 PM »
Hard to do that.  Do it for long enough and the tax-man brings humorless men with guns to negotiate with .40 cal persuasiveness.
Are you saying we can't change the laws to cease paying handouts to illegals?  We'll get shot if we do that?

In the mean time, another solution is for the employers of illegal aliens to grow a sense of morality, stop employing them, privatizing the profits, and socializing the costs & screwing their neighbors good & hard by dumping the cost of their health care,education, police, etc. on those tax-paying neighbors.
Strange sense of morality, that.  I don't see anything particularly immoral about two people making a mutually beneficial exchange. 

Illegal aliens, for all their law-breaking and messing of the American nest, I can sympathize with.  I sucks where they came from and America is better.  Those who employ them, however, get no sympathy from me, as they deliberately screw over their fellow tax-paying neighbors. 
We beat employers over the head with our onerous employment laws, and then some of them choose not to comply with those laws.  Go figure.



I see an awful lot of people here complaining about how messed up our current legal/immigration/employment/welfare situation is.  Nobody much wants to look at the real causes of these problems, preferring instead to blame illegal immigrants for problems that are largely the result of our own convoluted and misguided laws.  This is the essence of my disagreement with the consensus position here.  We need to take a good hard look in the mirror before we assume that our problems are all due to those nasty brown skins breaking our righteous laws.

If we had our own house in order immigration would be a lot less problematic than it is now.  The law would be easier to comply with, there would be more incentive to follow the law, less incentive to break the law, and less nastiness resulting from those who persist in breaking the law.  Perhaps most importantly, there'd be a true correlation between actions that violate the law and actions that violate the conscience.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #179 on: May 09, 2010, 06:56:38 PM »
can i quote that on another forum? nice explanation
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Nitrogen

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #180 on: May 09, 2010, 10:19:04 PM »
Remember, we were all illegal immigrants starting in 1492.  The natives here didn't see it as a threat and look what happened to them.

We're next.

That's the real threat that nobody's looking at: losing our culture.

America is a melting pot, but in order to join, you need to melt a little, too.
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #181 on: May 10, 2010, 10:15:27 AM »
Excuse me, but a LOT of people are painfully aware of the cultural "erasure" issue.  That, of course, is the real crux of the matter.  To latinize the U.S.A., without assimilation, is to destroy the philosophical and cultural underpinnings of this nation.  If that sounds "discriminatory," it's meant to be, in the best sense of the word: it is what it is.  Of course the cultural issue will be militantly excluded from public discourse by every media and academic type who knows who keeps him in treats.

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We need to start popping some of the mythic balloons about our Native Americans.  Their record's not clean either.
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red headed stranger

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #182 on: May 10, 2010, 10:31:26 AM »
Regardless of what we do to "reform" immigration law in order to help the "good" immigrants, there is still that matter of keeping bad guys out.  

There are significant numbers of bad guy illegal immigrants in our country that need to be deported and kept out.  (I'm talking about gang members and those that are cartel affiliated) At this point, many near the border have had their property rights trampled on thanks to lax enforcement of the immigration issue.  This is an extreme failure of the federal government to live up to one of its most important functions.  They have had time to address the issue, but have chosen to look away.  I'm glad that the states are stepping up to address the issue in a manner that is consistent with what most citizens want.  
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #183 on: May 10, 2010, 10:59:01 AM »
If you value the rule of law and the will of the people, even "the good ones" are bad.  They remain trespassers, and they remain interlopers, not to mention takers.  However good their table manners, they are party-crashers.
"Domari nolo."

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grampster

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #184 on: May 10, 2010, 11:12:03 AM »
  George Will pretty much hits the nail on the head:

Jewish World Review April 28, 2010/ 14 Iyar 5770

A law Arizona can live with

By George Will

 http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | "Misguided and irresponsible" is how Arizona's new law pertaining to illegal immigration is characterized by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. She represents San Francisco, which calls itself a "sanctuary city," an exercise in exhibitionism that means it will be essentially uncooperative regarding enforcement of immigration laws. Yet as many states go to court to challenge the constitutionality of the federal mandate to buy health insurance, scandalized liberals invoke 19th-century specters of "nullification" and "interposition," anarchy and disunion. Strange.

It is passing strange for federal officials, including the president, to accuse Arizona of irresponsibility while the federal government is refusing to fulfill its responsibility to control the nation's borders. Such control is an essential attribute of national sovereignty. America is the only developed nation that has a 2,000-mile border with a developing nation, and the government's refusal to control that border is why there are an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona and why the nation, sensibly insisting on first things first, resists "comprehensive" immigration reform.

Arizona's law makes what is already a federal offense — being in the country illegally — a state offense. Some critics seem not to understand Arizona's right to assert concurrent jurisdiction. The Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund attacks Gov. Jan Brewer's character and motives, saying she "caved to the radical fringe." This poses a semantic puzzle: Can the large majority of Arizonans who support the law be a "fringe" of their state?

Popularity makes no law invulnerable to invalidation. Americans accept judicial supervision of their democracy — judicial review of popular but possibly unconstitutional statutes — because they know that if the Constitution is truly to constitute the nation, it must trump some majority preferences. The Constitution, the Supreme Court has said, puts certain things "beyond the reach of majorities."

But Arizona's statute is not presumptively unconstitutional merely because it says that police officers are required to try to make "a reasonable attempt" to determine the status of a person "where reasonable suspicion exists" that the person is here illegally. The fact that the meaning of "reasonable" will not be obvious in many contexts does not make the law obviously too vague to stand. The Bill of Rights — the Fourth Amendment — proscribes "unreasonable searches and seizures." What "reasonable" means in practice is still being refined by case law — as is that amendment's stipulation that no warrants shall be issued "but upon probable cause." There has also been careful case-by-case refinement of the familiar and indispensable concept of "reasonable suspicion."

 Brewer says, "We must enforce the law evenly, and without regard to skin color, accent or social status." Because the nation thinks as Brewer does, airport passenger screeners wand Norwegian grandmothers. This is an acceptable, even admirable, homage to the virtue of "evenness" as we seek to deter violence by a few, mostly Middle Eastern, young men.

Some critics say Arizona's law is unconstitutional because the 14th Amendment's guarantee of "equal protection of the laws" prevents the government from taking action on the basis of race. Liberals, however, cannot comfortably make this argument because they support racial set-asides in government contracting, racial preferences in college admissions, racial gerrymandering of legislative districts and other aspects of a racial spoils system. Although liberals are appalled by racial profiling, some seem to think vocational profiling (police officers are insensitive incompetents) is merely intellectual efficiency, as is state profiling (Arizonans are xenophobic).

Probably 30 percent of Arizona's residents are Hispanic. Arizona police officers, like officers everywhere, have enough to do without being required to seek arrests by violating settled law with random stops of people who speak Spanish. In the practice of the complex and demanding craft of policing, good officers — the vast majority — routinely make nuanced judgments about when there is probable cause for acting on reasonable suspicions of illegality.

Arizona's law might give the nation information about whether judicious enforcement discourages illegality. If so, it is a worthwhile experiment in federalism.

Non-Hispanic Arizonans of all sorts live congenially with all sorts of persons of Hispanic descent. These include some whose ancestors got to Arizona before statehood — some even before it was a territory. They were in America before most Americans' ancestors arrived. Arizonans should not be judged disdainfully and from a distance by people whose closest contacts with Hispanics are with fine men and women who trim their lawns and put plates in front of them at restaurants, not with illegal immigrants passing through their back yards at 3 a.m.
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MechAg94

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #185 on: May 10, 2010, 12:10:36 PM »
If you value the rule of law and the will of the people, even "the good ones" are bad.  They remain trespassers, and they remain interlopers, not to mention takers.  However good their table manners, they are party-crashers.
My position comes down to this:  We currently have people breaking the law.  We should either enforce the law as it is or change the law to something we are willing to enforce.  The current system of turning a blind eye is unacceptable in the long term.
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #186 on: May 10, 2010, 12:16:18 PM »
The majority of the American people is sensible and willing to enforce current laws.  They do understand the problem.  It is government that won't enforce the laws.  The cost of changing the law to what's considered "enforceable" by government as it currently exists is unacceptable; it is tantamount to surrendering the country, at least in my view.

Of course, these days, in just about everything, everywhere, appeasement has become the rule.
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roo_ster

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #187 on: May 10, 2010, 09:05:20 PM »
Are you saying we can't change the laws to cease paying handouts to illegals?  We'll get shot if we do that?
Now you're being obtuse.  Your reading comprehension is not so poor as to not understand my point.

Strange sense of morality, that.  I don't see anything particularly immoral about two people making a mutually beneficial exchange.
That was freaking uncalled for-----edited out by the mod

I see an awful lot of people here complaining about how messed up our current legal/immigration/employment/welfare situation is.  Nobody much wants to look at the real causes of these problems, preferring instead to blame illegal immigrants for problems that are largely the result of our own convoluted and misguided laws.  This is the essence of my disagreement with the consensus position here.  We need to take a good hard look in the mirror before we assume that our problems are all due to those nasty brown skins breaking our righteous laws.

If we had our own house in order immigration would be a lot less problematic than it is now.  The law would be easier to comply with, there would be more incentive to follow the law, less incentive to break the law, and less nastiness resulting from those who persist in breaking the law.  Perhaps most importantly, there'd be a true correlation between actions that violate the law and actions that violate the conscience.

Nice try, but both entitlements and illegal immigration are both problems can be worked in parallel.  They are serial only in your mind.

If your conscience is not worried by inflicting your neighbors with the costs of hiring illegals, you need to trade yours in, because it is broke.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 07:33:22 AM by JamisJockey »
Regards,

roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #188 on: May 10, 2010, 09:59:21 PM »
I guess some folk just think it is OK to stick it to your neighbor, nowadays.  Welcome to America, 2010.  The idea of doing something like that just never gets past the "do unto others as you would have done unto you" stage in my thinking. 

I wouldn't deliberately bring my dog to crap on a neighbors lawn or screw them out of their hard-earned wages through underhanded business practices or any other way.  It is just something one doesn't do to people you have any regard for.

And a lot of the costs of illegal aliens are borne very close to home, in the form of property taxes that support education, public hospitals, LEOs, etc.  If one employs illegals, one's neighbors take it in the jimmy due to increased property taxes.  For instance, Dallas county's public hospital, Parkland, has its own property tax levy.  Of the ~16,000 babies born there every year, some ~11,000 are anchor babies.  Federal law says we can't deny them access to emergency care and I don't think we would want to. The money to pay for all that doesn't just fall from the sky.  My neighbors and I must work hard to pay for it while illegal alien employers reap the benefits. 

Or, like on the border, your neighbors will never make enough money to pay for a public hospital to support them and the multitude of illegals who roll in.  There are some places on the border that are 4-5 hours by auto from a hospital.  Home births aren't just a fad, they are a necessity, as many expectant mothers will never reach a hospital in time.  Anything truly dire means you get to go on a helicopter ride and pay one whopper of a bill for it.

I guess I ought not be surprised, given contemporary morality. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #189 on: May 10, 2010, 10:14:29 PM »
Now you're being obtuse.  Your reading comprehension is not so poor as to not understand my point.
No, I'm illiustrating your absudity by being absurd.  Those ill-tempered men with the .40's work for us.  If we tell 'em to pay for illegals, they will.  If we tell 'em to quit paying for illegals, they will.

Did one of your neighbors touch you in an inappropriate way, years back, because you sure don't mind giving it back to your neighbors in the pants.  If you don't understand the immorality of reaping the benefits while leaving your neighbors to clean up the mess you created, I doubt reading any forum will fix your crippled sense of morality.
You wanna accuse me of giving it to my neighbors in the pants?  Gimme an effing break.  Between my day job and my work on our family business, I provide jobs for my neighbors, I provide valuable goods and services for my neighbors, I provide ample charity for my neighbors, and I get raped by the IRS for my efforts.  I'd wager I pay far more in taxes than you do, and you want tell me how I'm an evil bastage for not wanting to pay more, or that I'm somehow not willing to pay my fair share?  You're gonna tell me that I need to give up even more of what's mine because your warped sense of morality demands it?  And you think that gives the the moral high ground?

Phuque that.

I'd say the share I pay earns me the right to question the sanctity of our current laws without folks like you questioning my decency.

Nice try, but both entitlements and illegal immigration are both problems can be worked in parallel.  They are serial only in your mind.
The mistake is yours for thinking illegal immigration and welfare are separate problems with separate solutions.

If your conscience is not worried by inflicting your neighbors with the costs of hiring illegals, you need to trade yours in, because it is broke.
Fine.  If my views on immigration make me an immoral bastage in your mind, then so be it.  I'd have to wonder about myself if people like you fully approved of me and my actions.

I've never had an occasion to hire illegals, but if I ever do I'll smile and think of you.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 11:06:01 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Balog

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #190 on: May 10, 2010, 11:13:51 PM »
Might wanna visit the border states and see the damage illegals do to real people before you wear that high horse out.
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KD5NRH

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #191 on: May 11, 2010, 12:23:19 AM »
Might wanna visit the border states and see the damage illegals do to real people before you wear that high horse out.

Exactly; I notice all the people supporting illegal immigration are pretty well isolated from the damage in areas like Laredo, where the farmers are having to deal with constant theft and vandalism.


Balog

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #192 on: May 11, 2010, 01:44:12 AM »
It's a very ivory tower view on the subject, in terms of isolation from reality.
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