Author Topic: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?  (Read 52980 times)

MrRezister

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2010, 10:34:11 PM »
The law is only like 16 pages, may as well just read the thing.  I didn't see anything in it that was super-egregious.  Seems to me like Arizona is just picking up the slack left by the feds refusing to enforce immigration law.  With regard to the "Papers Please" hypothetical, I'm trying to remember the last time a police officer spoke to me without requesting some form of ID.  Are we already there?
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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2010, 10:51:46 PM »
With regard to the "Papers Please" hypothetical, I'm trying to remember the last time a police officer spoke to me without requesting some form of ID.  Are we already there?

Cops ask all kinds o' stuff.  That doesn't mean you are required to carry ID, and can go to jail because of it. 
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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2010, 10:53:27 PM »
Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: fistful on April 25, 2010, 11:06:32 PM
How would Mexico not qualify as Western?

Not being a fully-industrialized country?

The corruption?

The horrific crime?

The various civil rights abuses?
Posted on: April 25, 2010, 11:06:32 PM
Posted by: fistful
Insert Quote
How would Mexico not qualify as Western?
Posted on: April 25, 2010, 09:59:08 PM
Posted by: MicroBalrog
Insert Quote
Quote from: HankB on April 25, 2010, 09:44:57 PM
Not really - I understand Mexico treats illegals along its southern border far more harshly than AZ is proposing.


Mexico was a Western country now? I mean, it is physically in the West, but that doesn't qualify.

I guess I should have said civilized, Mexico rapes/kills/exploits Guatemalan along their southern border, ranchers down there say Guatemalan's are doing the work regular citizens wont do!
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2010, 11:51:31 PM »
so is this just a gesture to the feds?  or are they really gonna enforce it and make some folks richer some jurisdictions poorer?  they've got 90 days before it starts.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AZRedhawk44

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2010, 01:44:01 PM »
Local conservative talk circuit is up in arms about it as a bad thing.

They say it will make AZ poorer, and be a kick-off for the Dems to rally against and defuse the Tea-Party angst that would have rocked the voting booth in November.

I kinda agree with that.

Local cops won't put a dent in the ~1 million illegals in AZ (about 20% of our population).  The roads, the schools, the hospitals, the civic infrastructure to pay for these non-taxpayers (or ID thieves)... it's atrocious.  But, at this point the only thing that will do it properly is:
1 - BURN the employer who uses illegals.  First offense, a $25k fine.  Second offense, revocation of corporate charter and top corporate officer and HR director each does 10 years PMITA time.
2 - militarize the border.  You know, with gunz and stuff.
3 - ICE gets cracking on street-corner loitering.  Home Depots, 7-11's, all the usual informal labor hotspots.

Without all three things there, and a deportation rate in the thousands per day (at least half a million a year), we won't get rid of the illegals.

For the sake of civil liberties and quality of life in this country, I can acknowledge that option 3 is problematic.  I don't care for it at all because it, just like all other federal laws, will never go away.  1 and 2 are enough to make the rest trickle their way back to Mexico.

This approach is more like option 3, than getting AZ DPS down on the border or the AZ national guard.  We already have a lukewarm option 1, but it needs more teeth that directly attack people who derive profit from illegal hiring or are directly accountable for crappy oversight of hiring procedures.
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dogmush

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2010, 02:11:08 PM »
I would point out that there's no real point in militarizing the border untill we (america that is) is actually willing to shoot people.  Otherwise it's an empty threat.

Ask yourself what would happen if CNN broadcast a film of ICE shooting an 18 YO female mexican civilian holding a baby in the middle of the desert.  Never mind right or wrong, or that she's got 5 kilos of mexican brown in her backpack, what do you think the american public's reaction to that would be?

Untill we're ready to shoot these folks, adding more guns to the border, along with crazy ROE just makes us look more impotent.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2010, 02:15:28 PM »
what he said!  in spades!  this issue can bring out the best in us if we find a solution  so far its not been our proudest moment  the new law does not seem likely to break the trend
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2010, 02:59:59 PM »
its kind of personal to me, I enjoy driving taxi's but after selling my guns and jumping thru all the hoops San Francisco had to offer I still couldn't get a cab driver gig in SF.
SF and the rest of the USA is awash with illegal aliens driving cabs, it hurts me personally and I want them out right now, I'm sick of it.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Seenterman

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2010, 03:14:50 PM »
Quote
Ask yourself what would happen if CNN broadcast a film of ICE shooting an 18 YO female mexican civilian holding a baby in the middle of the desert. 


Seriously? You want BP shooting unarmed people that pose no threat to them just for the "shock value". 

Great idea!!  [barf]

Quote
Never mind right or wrong, or that she's got 5 kilos of mexican brown in her backpack, what do you think the american public's reaction to that would be?

Oh wait all Mexican's are drug mules, forgot about that. And everyone knows drug users / suppliers are unpeople deserving to be killed.

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2010, 03:24:28 PM »
ZED has it basically right.  Perhaps the biggest effect will be indirect.  For entirely too long US immigration policy has been very predictable.  We will huff and puff and in the end do nothing.  What AZ just did is insert uncertainty into the calculations of those who would crash the border.  AZ is no longer in essence a sanctuary state.  I'd be willing to predict AZ will see an exodus of border jumpers to other states.  Those who planned to cross the AZ border will either plan a quick pass through AZ or move to another state (Tejas, New Mexico, or Cali).  In any case what AZ just did will spread to other states fairly quickly.
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dogmush

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2010, 03:25:31 PM »


Seriously? You want BP shooting unarmed people that pose no threat to them just for the "shock value". 

Great idea!!  [barf]

Oh wait all Mexican's are drug mules, forgot about that. And everyone knows drug users / suppliers are unpeople deserving to be killed.

Ummm...... no, you missed my point completely.

I don't want to just shoot folks walking across the border, and I don't think most of America would be OK with that either.  And if we're not going to shoot them, I think militarizing the border with lots of guns and prohibitive ROE's (because we're not shooting them, remember) is at best counterproductive, and quite possibly dangerous.

I threw the 18YO scenario in there as an example of how militarizing the border could go very bad, very quickly. Because the majority of the illegals coming across the border are unarmed, and not much of a threat.

I was argueing against it.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2010, 03:55:34 PM »
and a darn good example of how it could go badly wrong.  it would be just as bad if some vigilante did the shooting.  could real quick end up with soldiers having to shoot citizens.cor us to close our border MIGHT become possible if the mexican gov cooperated by controlling movements on their side of the line but thats not gonna happen
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AZRedhawk44

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2010, 04:17:18 PM »
Might make me a cold-hearted no good SOB, but I'm okay with that footage on CNN.  Or Fox.  Or even MSNBC.

Wouldn't take very many of those, before the border traffic completely stopped.  100%.

Average that against the number of 18yo women with babies that get raped by their coyotes on the trip across, or the number of unguided illegals that die from dehydration, or the number of US Citizens that get killed by (uninsured illegal motorists, drugs muled by illegals, opportunistic crime gone wrong involving illegals as the criminals).

So, I'm all for it "Jonathan Swift" style, modest proposal.

I'm also all for it since I consider the southern border an invasion, using poverty as a weapon. 

I'm not popular for either perspective, but it is my cold, rational thoughts on it.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2010, 04:30:19 PM »
Wouldn't take very many of those, before the border traffic completely stopped.  100%.


i think you are mistaken  its that bad down there that folks come knowing they might die. i think thats a major failing when americans try to understand folks from other countries mindset from their air conditioned flat screen world
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AJ Dual

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2010, 05:00:09 PM »
Wouldn't take very many of those, before the border traffic completely stopped.  100%.


i think you are mistaken  its that bad down there that folks come knowing they might die. i think thats a major failing when americans try to understand folks from other countries mindset from their air conditioned flat screen world

IMO you're partly right.

However, even the window-dressing crackdowns under the Bush administration had noticeable impacts in the illegal immigration rates. As has the economic downturn and housing slump.

If all of them were "willing to risk death" to get here, they'd not let these minor things stop them, but they do.

I can only conclude that this is largely economic immigration of convenience. If it were immigration of survival, like in Africa, and other places experiencing war, genocide, refugees etc. they'd keep on coming. And I think in part the "willing to die to get here" is a product of their own self delusion, and coyotes who don't give them the truth until it's too late.

If a few poultry plant raids in the news can make a noticeable dip of 20% or more, getting serious about the things Zed Wanted to Carry a Redhawk lists, namely just #1 and #2, we can make a serious dent in it, more than 50%.

And that's the other thing that gets my goat. The conservatives who are in favor of amnesty etc. because "you can't stop them all" type of logic. I certainly think stopping or reducing illegal immigration by 50% is a laudable and very worthwhile goal.

If we could ever really crack down on illegal immigration I see some long-term HUGE upsides for both America and Mexico.

1. The American welfare underclass needs to be forced (in market terms, not authoritarian) into the labor pool that the illegal immigrants is now filling. (and many of these are not bad paying jobs.) This increases tax revenue, and reduction of welfare costs could be huge, and it could start to reverse the dangerous cancers of inter-generational dependency and joblessness.

2. Illegal immigration into the U.S. is Mexico's safety valve for both social and economic pressures. It's subtle, but Mexico is a very racist country, and very economically divided. The white Spaniards are on top, and the mixed/Indian blooded, below...
And Mexican politicians and important people have stated on record that they believe Mexico needs it's underclass to stay where it is. They practice win-lose capitalism there, vs. the American variety which at least tries to be more win-win in nature.

If that safety valve were to be shut off, Mexico may finally be forced to deal with it's own huge internal political, social, and economic problems and inequities. I think the powers that be in both Mexico and the U.S. know this, and both settle on the situation as-is, because they fear having another Chavez/Venezuela right on our southern border.

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2010, 05:10:27 PM »
Local conservative talk circuit is up in arms about it as a bad thing.

They say it will make AZ poorer, and be a kick-off for the Dems to rally against and defuse the Tea-Party angst that would have rocked the voting booth in November.

I kinda agree with that.
Hmmm . . . so deporting thousands of illegals working in contravention of the law won't create a demand for NON-illegals to fill the vacancies?

Poorer? With tens or hundreds of thousands of illegal alien children no longer requiring taxpayer-provided schooling at $8k - $11k per year each, AZ would be poorer? And no more ER burdens at the hospitals due to illegals?

I'm not seeing AZ becoming poorer by massively cutting expenses.

. . . and a deportation rate in the thousands per day (at least half a million a year), we won't get rid of the illegals.
Once you catch the illegals - in short order, that will become a problem - transportation isn't an issue. Say you allocate 1000 busses for transportation; sounds like a lot, but it's how many Ray Nagin let be flooded in NOLA during Katrina - and NOLA isn't a huge city. Put 40 illegals on each bus, that's 40,000 illegals. Each bus makes 3 trips south per week, 120,000 per week. 100 weeks - less than 2 years - that's 12,000,000 illegals.

Now, not all illegals are Mexicans to be sure . . . and of course, CATCHING them is the big challenge. But once you have your hands on them, even in large numbers, transporting them in a humane manner isn't that big a deal.





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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2010, 05:11:34 PM »
Well, we can have "Venezuela" on our southern border, or we can have "Venezuela" right here in River City.  The reality is that "Venezuela" is part of the overall process we have permitted to take root and metastatize over the decades in this country.  It is deep and it is pervasive, part of spreading cultural fabric of "diversity" and "multiculturalism" that is the new reiigion of the elites.  There is no good way to deal with this that doesn't involve conflict; that is the price of integrity.  If we don't have the cojones to defend citizenship, the law, and sovereignty, we might as well fold the tent now and recognize we are a nation in name only.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2010, 05:21:22 PM »
Quote
Poorer? With tens or hundreds of thousands of illegal alien children no longer requiring taxpayer-provided schooling at $8k - $11k per year each, AZ would be poorer? And no more ER burdens at the hospitals due to illegals?

I'm not seeing AZ becoming poorer by massively cutting expenses.

Let's say in the next year, PHX and other suburban AZ police depts capture, detain and process 20k illegals.

Then Obama backs a class action lawsuit against the state of AZ.

FedGov wins.

Then the Mexican Consulate pushes a class action lawsuit for each deported illegal.  Settlement is $100k per illegal.  That's $2 billion.

Our state is $1 billion in the red right now with a total expense sheet of $9.6 billion.  That would be 20% added to our state budget.

That's what I meant by "poorer."
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2010, 05:25:38 PM »
i think getting usa soldiers to pull the trigger on unarmed folk,  particularly unarmed women and children, would be problematic. i certainly hope so. maybe we should recruit from the internet there appears to be a glut of "qualified " folks there
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2010, 07:47:42 PM »
Hmmm . . . so deporting thousands of illegals working in contravention of the law won't create a demand for NON-illegals to fill the vacancies?

Probably not as much as you'd think.  There tends to be less demand for any given product (in this case labor) when prices are high vs when they're low.  Simply removing the illegals that work for dirt-cheap wages  doesn't really do anything to ensure that there'll be lots of newly-available higher paying jobs for Americans to fill. 

Many of the jobs held today by cheap illegal immigrant laborers were likely created specifically because that cheap labor was available.  Take away the cheap labor and the job could well go with it.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2010, 07:49:43 PM »
the job could well go with it.

along with the factory   to mexico
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2010, 07:50:38 PM »
i think getting usa soldiers to pull the trigger on unarmed folk,  particularly unarmed women and children, would be problematic. i certainly hope so. maybe we should recruit from the internet there appears to be a glut of "qualified " folks there

You figure a lot of Mexican women would try to scale a razor wire fence with manned MG nests? My, the illegals you know must be far more motivated than the ones I met in AZ.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2010, 07:54:55 PM »
nope i think you only need one and her picture all over the world before the bodys cold. i think you could get a group of women carrying kids to walk towards a fence.  would you pull a trigger? or give the order to?  don't bluff unless you can back it up
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2010, 08:09:55 PM »
If our soldiers are bluffing you can bet it won't take long for the illegals to figure it out, and to start acting accordingly.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2010, 08:15:02 PM »
i think one would have a tough time getting our guys to fire on unarmed folks  much less women and kids. mines or an electric fence make that a non issue but doesn't solve the problem of seeing the carnage on the internet and news
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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