What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?

[Nitrogen]

its kind of personal to me, I enjoy driving taxi's but after selling my guns and jumping thru all the hoops San Francisco had to offer I still couldn't get a cab driver gig in SF.
SF and the rest of the USA is awash with illegal aliens driving cabs, it hurts me personally and I want them out right now, I'm sick of it.

This reason right here is why Liberals should be ALL OVER the illegal immigration problem.  Yet they are not, and it baffles me.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

This reason right here is why Liberals should be ALL OVER the illegal immigration problem.  Yet they are not, and it baffles me.

The hardcore libs I know love 2nd and 3rd world "diversity", so long as they can take it in small manageable chunks, like brief cab rides.  Gives 'em something interesting to chat about after they return to their regular homogeneously euro-white social circles.

[Balog]

White guilt is the basis of most liberal policies.

i think one would have a tough time getting our guys to fire on unarmed folks  much less women and kids. mines or an electric fence make that a non issue but doesn't solve the problem of seeing the carnage on the internet and news

I'm still not seeing a whole lotta people hopping a razor wire fence to walk through a minefield. But yeah, let's have our foreign policy dictated by fear of those nasty ole international newspapers saying mean things about us.

Many of the jobs held today by cheap illegal immigrant laborers were likely created specifically because that cheap labor was available.  Take away the cheap labor and the job could well go with it.

The majority of illegals I've known worked as truck drivers, construction workers, animal processing plants, or harvesting fruits/veggies. I doubt any of those (except construction, perhaps) would just magically disappear. If the tax and regulatory burden is too high for citizen workers maybe we should lower those burdens...

[longeyes]

White guilt?  For what exactly?  I stopped owning slaves a long time ago, truth be told.  The Feds have taken a few trillion dollars from people like me for welfare since the '60s.  Guilt? 

Guilt is too kind a word for the kind of self-devouring sickness that permeates liberalism.  It's a radical form of self-contempt that is based in alternating self-indulgence and an embarrassment at being alive. 

No, we should not shoot women and children, but we shouldn't become their de facto slaves either.  Will the best and brightest of us come up with a wise Solomonic solution to this dilemma?

[Perd Hapley]

Will the best and brightest of us come up with a wise Solomonic solution to this dilemma?

Oh, why do I have to do everything?   

[longeyes]

Because, well, you are The Anointed One...  And to think we thought it was Obama.

This government behaves as if its citizens are the trespassers and squatters, but we have to pay for the privilege of being used.

[Sindawe]

I'm still not seeing a whole lotta people hopping a razor wire fence to walk through a minefield.

You forgot the roaming prides of African lions. 

Will the best and brightest of us come up with a wise Solomonic solution to this dilemma?

I don't think I'm as wise as Soloman, but I'll take a shot at it.

For illegal aliens here now.

The Nine Month Plan

0 - 90 days, Thanks for visiting, come again soon.: All illegal aliens are invited to leave, selling any property they desire to leave.  Non-movable property such as real estate may be registered with a third party/agent and sold at no penalty to the illegal aliens.  Once outside the nation's borders former illegal aliens may apply for resident visas just like any other immigrant.

90 - 180 days, Golly, look the time!: All illegal aliens are directed to depart.  All movable property and funds may be taken home at no penalty.  All non-movable property may be registered with a third party/agent and sold at a 10% penalty.  Once outside the nation's borders former illegal aliens may apply for resident visas just like any other immigrant.  All illegal aliens apprehended during this time frame who are not actively packing up to leave forfeit all non-movable property and are barred from re-admittance for a period of five years.

180 - 270 days, Get the frak out!: All illegal aliens are ordered to leave immediately.  Take what you can carry.  Any non-movable property may be sold at a 33% penalty. Those registering property are barred from visa application for one year.  All illegal's apprehended during this time who are not actively packing up to leave are microchipped and ejected with naught but the clothes on their backs and a forbidden entry for a period of 5 years, under pain of banishment to the meanest penal colony available for 15 years.

270+ days, No more Mr. Nic-Guy: Sneak back across the border, it is your ONLY option. All illegal's apprehended during this time are microchipped and ejected with naught but the clothes on their backs and a forbidden entry for life.  Those illegal aliens who have been microchipped, ejected and again apprehended in this county get a life time vacation at the above noted penal colony.

Of course, we whould have to HAVE a penal colony.  I suppose the Moon would do in a pinch.

For the businesses that hire illegal aliens

Unwitting hire, Be sure, or be spanked: $500 file for each illegal alien/month of employment. 

Knowingly hire, Welcome to pauperdom: All financial assets are forfeit and disbursed to any legal employees except executives and officers as compensation for their unemployment.  All physical assets are forfeit and crushed to dust.  All IP assets are cast into the public domain.  All assets of all company executives & officers are seized at a 75% penalty and the proceeds dispersed to the rest of the legal employees.  All executives and officers are forever barred from holding such positions again.


On the border

Granted mine fields and African lions might be a bit extreame, as would shooting to kill the unarmed attempting entry illegally.  So I suggest a more reasonable approch.

Set up automated sentry guns with overlapping fields of fire, targeting algorythms designed to only ID human shape and movement patterns.  Ammo loads on the guns is a mix of a biodegradable nautural dye (Indigo is nice) and capsaicin powder/oil pellets.  Staff monitoring posts to check on sentry gun activation or disablment.  Those apprehended while seeking entry illegally are treated under points two, three and four above for each successive violation.

[Nitrogen]

The hardcore libs I know love 2nd and 3rd world "diversity", so long as they can take it in small manageable chunks, like brief cab rides.  Gives 'em something interesting to chat about after they return to their regular homogeneously euro-white social circles.

Hey I love diversity, it meant my relatives could come here when Hitler was being a twerp.  They did it legally though, through a bribe :)

[kgbsquirrel]

Well at least Sindawe actually has a plan of action, unlike certain elected groups. As for the fence, I'm partial to the Jurassic Park style with a couple improvements. First, a simple ten foot chain link fence. Big signs in English, Spanish and pictograph denoting what the next fence is. Next fence, 3 foot high and six food wide concrete base, 20 foot high pylons suspending 1" diameter high tension steel cable with 8 inches of spacing. Repeat chain link fence on the other side. And don't forget the seismic sensors to detect tunneling (I'd suggest driving I-beams into the ground but the tunnelers would just cut through them and you wouldn't know about it top side). I'd say 5000 volts @ 200 amps would be a sufficient deterrent, and remember, it's not actually discharging current until something grounds the wires.

Seriously, all the work passes and travel visas in the world aren't going to do squat if you're not willing to address the physical problems in any significant and meaningful manner. The whole electronic surveillance boarder is a crock of $#!^. People will still attempt to cross illegally (be it for work, human trafficking or drug smuggling) until you make the consequences of attempting the illegal act far outweigh the incentives for committing it, and those consequences an assured occurrence rather than just a remote possibility.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The majority of illegals I've known worked as truck drivers, construction workers, animal processing plants, or harvesting fruits/veggies. I doubt any of those (except construction, perhaps) would just magically disappear. If the tax and regulatory burden is too high for citizen workers maybe we should lower those burdens...

I think many of these jobs could be phased out in large part by the use of automated equipment.  Many more than you might first think.

Most of these jobs simply aren't worth the prices Americans would expect to be paid for the work.  If it costs $8/hour plus benefits plus taxes/FICO/unemployment/Medicare to hire an American to pick tomatoes or cut 2x4s, the price of tomatoes and houses would increase to the point that people would stop buying 'em.  Or, more likely, the tomato growing operations would find a way to make tomatoes amenable to mechanized farming, and the homebuilders would switch to prefab materials and structures.

Fact is, many of these jobs simply aren't worth higher prices.  The market wouldn't pay them.  People often assume that employers use illegals simply because they're cheaper than American workers, and that without cheap illegals holding wages down there'd be an equal number of Americans doing the exact same jobs only at higher wages.  This simply isn't so.  

The economy is not a zero-sum-game.  The employment market is a reflection of the available workforce.  Change the workforce, and the available jobs will change and adapt to match.

I do agree with eliminating regulatory, tax, and wage restrictions on the workforce.  If we quit manipulating the job market it probably won't take long to discover just what any given job is really worth.  We might find that the manual labor farming industry isn't worth a dime, but the mechanized farm equipment industry is actually worth a lot more than we otherwise would have known.  Is it fair to subsidize unskilled hand farming at the expense of skilled heavy equipment manufacturing?

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Sindawe's plan is a good start.

Me. I am more mean about it. Before we can address the llegals that are already here. We must secure/close the open borders where the illegals cross. And I mean secure and close. Military or private contractors. I don't care. Mount 50 cals, interlocking fields of fire. Load and fire when ready. This is an invasion. You repel an invasion by force. We have pussyfooted around long enough. Yes my stance is extreme. But so is the illegal problem.

The ones that are here. I wouldn't be as kind as Sindawe. You turn yourself in, you gets to leave with your stuff. You have 180 days. If after that time frame, we catch you. We confiscate you stuff. All your stuff. Then we microchip and deport your ass back to Mexico. And you are banned from entry for life. We catch you inside the US, no prison, you just die.

With this Arizona Law and the rioting going on, if you think a non violent solution
will work. Your kiddng yourself. You are seeing the illegals
finally realizing that their "ride" is about to be curtailed severely or come to
an end. And they ain't happy about it and they will get mean

[Lennyjoe]

I applaud Arizona and their decision to uphold the federal laws that this .gov will not do.

[red headed stranger]

It will remain to be seen how this plays out.  The governor is directing that a set of guidelines be set as to what actually constitutes the reasonable suspicion that someone is here illegally, and setting up training for officers as to how to apply those guidelines.  IN her speech to LEOs after singing the bill she made it very clear people will be watching, and that they would have to be very by the book and probably conservative in the applying of this law. 

This bill was talked about a lot at the range the other day.  There were current and former sheriff deputies discussing some of the stops thay have done in the past that would likely be considered sufficient PC under the upcoming guidelines:

• A traffic stop of a pickup truck truck and discovering persons hiding under the lumber in the bed.
• A traffic stop of a minivan that is filled above capacity with people who the driver cannot name.

Apparently, around here, those kind of stops are pretty common. 

I'm glad for one of the other provisions in the bill that makes it illegal to obstruct traffic when picking up day laborers.  More than once, I have had guys run up to my truck trying to signal me that they are available for work. They can be very aggressive, and it makes me antsy. 

[longeyes]

I am another who is dubious about the illegal alien problem being resolved peacefully.  Illegal immigrants are just one more element of the entitlement culture.  Our value for them is to provide them with jobs, welfare, education, while they send money back home.  Are we using each other?  Sure, but I don't buy the "studies" that show them giving more than they getting.  Where I live they have overwhelmed the education system; no way they are paying up full pop for all the kids they are getting educated on our dime.

There is also a lot of empty palaver about creating a tough border.  Fine, but what happens after they get across?  And what about the many millions here already?  The full impact of illegals, their children, and the family members they will be able to sponsor is more than vast, it is a killshot to traditional American culture and values.

[Sindawe]

As a society we have to give a good honest try at resolving the situation peacefully.  If those who are here in contradiction to your immigration laws don't want to play nice, well we DO have a decent record at resolving things in a unpeacefull fashion when the need arises.

And what about the many millions here already?

Make it unprofitable/painfull for them to stay, with the pain increasing over time.

[longeyes]

Isn't the issue whether American culture is really so perfused with its obsession with "compassion" that it is constitutionally unable--I don't mean legally--to come down hard on anyone (except conservatives)?

[kgbsquirrel]

As a society we have to give a good honest try at resolving the situation peacefully.  If those who are here in contradiction to your immigration laws don't want to play nice, well we DO have a decent record at resolving things in a unpeacefull fashion when the need arises.

I was under the impression that the peaceful resolution has been attempted for the past 20-30 years. 

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

I was under the impression that the peaceful resolution has been attempted for the past 20-30 years

it has. Half ass attempts. But you are seeing the violence. On their part. And that will have to be dealt with by force on our part. Anything less will not change a thing

[AZRedhawk44]

it has. Half ass attempts. But you are seeing the violence. On their part. And that will have to be dealt with by force on our part. Anything less will not change a thing

Which is why I find myself carrying a little more self protection on days that the illegals get out and try to project mob force by marching.

[longeyes]

And there's something else...

State against state.  CA threatening AZ with boycotts?  This is serious.

We may mark this as the de facto inception of civil war in America.   Not unexpectedly it is about amnesty.

[Mabs2]

I think I would rather current illegals be fined a crap ton to make up for what they've leeched.  Say a cop finds one, he goes to jail and they figure up about how much he would be paying into taxes and etc per year were he legally here.  Multiply that by three.  How long have you been here?  Three years?  Can you prove that?  No?  So we're going to assume 15 years.
This would probably give a lot of the ones currently here quite a bit of motivation to gtfo.  And deter ones thinking of coming over.  "Man if I go over there tomorrow and get caught after 15 minutes I'll be forced to pay $$$."
The only problem I see is if they can't pay they either get deported and off the hook or get jail time which'll likely strain the jail system more than it already is.
But were it I in charge, this wouldn't be the only thing I'd change...there are a few things we can do that can alleviate jail strain and things we can do to remove incentive for people to hire illegals, but most of those are off topic to this thread.

[AZRedhawk44]

And there's something else...

State against state.  CA threatening AZ with boycotts?  This is serious.

We may mark this as the de facto inception of civil war in America.   Not unexpectedly it is about amnesty.

Well, it's only San Fran so far, not all of CA.

It'll be hard getting by without Levis and Rice-a-roni.  But, Mabs isn't in AZ so he doesn't have to worry about his supply of ass-less chaps for his GAY parties.

[Mabs2]

:(

[gunsmith]

Well, it's only San Fran so far, not all of CA.

It'll be hard getting by without Levis and Rice-a-roni.  But, Mabs isn't in AZ so he doesn't have to worry about his supply of ass-less chaps for his GAY parties.

I think Levi's are actually made in Mexico only the corporate HQ is in Frisco., I also lived there for years, never seen Rice-a-roni. eaten anywhere

[roo_ster]

Wouldn't take very many of those, before the border traffic completely stopped.  100%.


i think you are mistaken  its that bad down there that folks come knowing they might die. i think thats a major failing when americans try to understand folks from other countries mindset from their air conditioned flat screen world

Bah, relative to America, Mexico is a shiitehole, yes.  But, the average Mexican is richer than 5 billion other people on the planet.  Check the numbers in the CIA Factbook.  Mexico is in the top quintile of nations, prosperity-wise.

As in earlier crackdowns, the vast majority of illegals leave on their own, once it becomes too difficult to stay in the USA.  The ratio was over 10:1 for Operation Wetback, IIRC.

I think many of these jobs could be phased out in large part by the use of automated equipment.  Many more than you might first think.

Most of these jobs simply aren't worth the prices Americans would expect to be paid for the work.

To the extent that you are correct, that is a Good Thing^TM and nothing but upside.  The tomato growers cried like babies during Operation Wetback.  Wailing how they will go out of business if they are unable to break federal law by hiring illegals and screw over their neighbors by privatizing the profits and socializing the costs (medical, education, welfare, police, etc.).

What happened was that some enterprising soul developed a mechanized tomato picker that did the work of a whole crew of illegals which required only one American to run it.  Yes, some tomato growers went tits up.  Well, if your business model requires breaking federal law and burdening your neighbors with the costs, you business ought to go under.

Also, the contribution illegals make to the economy is ridiculously small relative to their numbers.  The proportion of the GDP attributable to illegal alien labor is lost in rounding errors.  This is because they are for the most part illiterate(0), no or low-skilled labor.  I recall a study done to determine the illegal alien labor component of a head of iceberg lettuce.  It worked out to be a a few cents at most.  Doubling the labor cost to the grower did not result in doubling the price to the consumer, it resulted in something like less than a nickel increase per head of lettuce.

The cost of some goods & services would go up.  But not as much as the doomsayers say.  In some cases, if American ingenuity managed to replace unskilled labor with capital investment, the end-user price could very well drop.


Lots of good ways to keep illegals out and those already here on the road back home.  An Israeli Gaza-style fence is the first step.

I would include a Joe Arpaio-inspired "Penalty Box" to any illegals caught.  We all have read about the illegal caught crossing the border who is deported and comes back over the next day.  Make it cost them by building a tent city holding facility in the middle of the desert and keeping them there "in process" for 6+ months.  Use Arpaio's cost-saving measures and methods to keep the cost down: tents, not structures.  Cold meals.  Pink underwear fo rthe guys.  

If these illegals have no money to pay a fine, take what they do have: time.




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