Author Topic: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read  (Read 24039 times)

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2010, 03:59:30 AM »
Except that's a category error.  God is supernatural, literally outside nature, not bound by or contained within either time or space.  It is impossible to prove or disprove Him using the scientific method which is bound and limited by both. 

To even try is incoherent in the philosophical sense.

You might as well try to weigh a memory on a scale.
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2010, 04:44:56 AM »
Tell that to the people who think science definitely disproves God.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2010, 05:34:15 AM »
Tell that to the people who think science definitely disproves God.

Their prima facia wrong.  That's why it's a category error.
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mellestad

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2010, 11:35:36 AM »
Quote from: rag
So God would be unable to make the water recede like normal water leaving evidence along the way, but vanish as it recedes so all that water is not still on Earth?

I've done some work with Police Explorers in my area, and one of the things we have them do is crime scene analysis.  We make up a crime scene, and they have to come in, do the sketching, photographs, evidence log, photo log, etc.  Did a crime really happen? No.  Did we create the illusion of a crime? Yes.  Can those students use our illusion within the context of the training to come to a conclusion?  Yes they can.  

God can plant evidence.  God can make things seem older than they are, or younger.  God can choose to leave behind signs of his work, or not.  He can put clues in place for us to read if He wants to, or not.  The question isn't whether you believe in the acts of the God of the Bible, but if you believe in Him.  If you do, the mental roadblocks of "I can't understand this, so I must dismiss it" vanish.  If of course, deep down one does not believe in Him, forcing the world to fit into one's understanding is really the only choice.

God, as defined as an omnipotent being would of course be able to do anything It wanted to.  If you think your God is willing to manipulate things just to confuse people who value science and rationality I'm not sure what to tell you, besides pointing out how it makes science impossible on the things you think He is involved with.

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There's no evidence of Noah's flood, eh?  Have you looked?  

There is no evidence of a global flood, if that is how you define Noah's flood.  There might have been a local flood in the regain, if there was I don't particularly care.  Flood myths are common in societies that live in places where floods happen, just like volcano myths are common in societies that live in places where volcanoes are active.

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God doesn't want us to have scientific proof (therefor, we don't) of his existence because then there would be no need for faith.

God didn't have a problem with that in the past, why the change of heart?

Their prima facia wrong.  That's why it's a category error.

I am not aware of anyone who has claimed that science disproves the Christian God.  In fact, the Christian God, as defined, is not falsifiable with science (some would say It is falsifiable logically).  What is claimed is that there is no conclusive evidence to be made for God existing, and positing a deity only creates more questions than it answers so there is no reason to believe in God.

mellestad

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2010, 11:39:28 AM »
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/04/27/2280442.aspx

Pics and a couple of quotes for non-involved archeologists.

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2010, 01:17:53 PM »
From a Christian perspective, belief in God's existence is not really the goal.  Faith is also needed (I would say primarily needed) in order to trust that God is right about matters of opinion, even when you think that He is wrong.

Besides, if God didn't want us to be certain of His existence, He wouldn't have left so much evidence.   =)
Well, of course there's evidence.  But he doesn't carve mountains into Bible verses to leave zero doubt in peoples' minds either.  I'd say it's "Just the right amount" of evidence.
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God didn't have a problem with that in the past, why the change of heart?
It's true that he didn't, especially to the certain special people.  But even to crowd and sometimes entire cities he made himself known.
Why doesn't he do it now?  Only he knows.  I think it's safe to say it's part of his plan.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 01:21:11 PM by Mabs »
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mellestad

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2010, 01:55:19 PM »
Well, of course there's evidence.  But he doesn't carve mountains into Bible verses to leave zero doubt in peoples' minds either.  I'd say it's "Just the right amount" of evidence.It's true that he didn't, especially to the certain special people.  But even to crowd and sometimes entire cities he made himself known.
Why doesn't he do it now?  Only he knows.  I think it's safe to say it's part of his plan.

I suppose it depends on your brand of theism whether or not it makes sense.

Traditionally, people who do not accept John 3:16 are doomed.  To me, if that is true, there is no benefit for God to keep Himself hidden because it isn't about having faith, it is about committing a conscious act.  Lots of people never even know about John 3:16, and lots of people don't see evidence that the Bible or John 3:16 are accurate or correct.  For people who want rational proof before they commit to an act, God isn't making a very good case for any specific type of theism by remaining behind the curtain.  Doubly so because Christianity is simply one mutually exclusive variation of religion among many.

If you are a traditional Christian, to me, it seems like it would make sense for your God to make Itself known and then judge on obedience to Its commands, rather than set up a system where you don't even get to that point unless you are lucky enough to hold certain theistic beliefs in the first place.


As it stands religion is more about where you were born and what your parents and community believe than it is about a rational decision between competing ideas (with exceptions, but they are not the rule).  To me that isn't an acceptable method to hand out eternal rewards and punishments.  If you want someone to make an informed choice about something, you need to give them good data that can be verified objectively.

Harold Tuttle

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2010, 02:32:16 PM »
Give a Sumerian campfire tale 3000 years, and all the trout were bigger than aardvarks
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2010, 07:38:25 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Matthew Carberry on Today at 12:34:15 AM
Their prima facia wrong.  That's why it's a category error.


I am not aware of anyone who has claimed that science disproves the Christian God.  In fact, the Christian God, as defined, is not falsifiable with science (some would say It is falsifiable logically).  What is claimed is that there is no conclusive evidence to be made for God existing, and positing a deity only creates more questions than it answers so there is no reason to believe in God.

I agree that from a purely rational standpoint God is not "necessary" for the system to work as we understand it, that's why I get frustrated with Christians trying for proofs. 

Knowing the logical arguments against, I find them unconvincing for the same reason He is not falsifiable scientifically; there's no reason to presume God's reasoning is completely comprehensible to the human intellect, in fact within doctrine it is made clear it is not.

Not sure how belief introduces complexity though, the few questions it raises are more or less irrelevent to those who don't accept His existence in the first place.  For instance, the "problem of evil" is only a problem if you believe in or are trying to disprove God (looking for trouble intellectually so to speak).  If you don't believe in or don't care about God, you should just go with naturalistic explanations which are perfectly sufficient.  No complexity QED.

Anyway, you've NEVER heard some idiot, usually an aggressive atheist pot stirrer, claim that science makes God impossible or some such? You need to get out more.  =D
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mellestad

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2010, 07:59:21 PM »
I agree that from a purely rational standpoint God is not "necessary" for the system to work as we understand it, that's why I get frustrated with Christians trying for proofs. 

Knowing the logical arguments against, I find them unconvincing for the same reason He is not falsifiable scientifically; there's no reason to presume God's reasoning is completely comprehensible to the human intellect, in fact within doctrine it is made clear it is not.

Not sure how belief introduces complexity though, the few questions it raises are more or less irrelevent to those who don't accept His existence in the first place.  For instance, the "problem of evil" is only a problem if you believe in or are trying to disprove God (looking for trouble intellectually so to speak).  If you don't believe in or don't care about God, you should just go with naturalistic explanations which are perfectly sufficient.  No complexity QED.

Anyway, you've NEVER heard some idiot, usually an aggressive atheist pot stirrer, claim that science makes God impossible or some such? You need to get out more.  =D

Complexity:  One of the traditional arguments for God is "a "Prime Mover" is needed, or a first cause.  This is because every action has a cause, and that causal chain leads back to infinity.  Since there cannot be a causal chain leading back to infinity there must have been something outside of that causal chain and thus outside of time."  This is from Aquinas.

The problem is a real causal chain involves complex events being caused by less complex events, all the way to an ideal 'simple' cause.  When you interject God into this chain you get down to "almost simple" and then you inject an infinitely complex being into the mix, which starts the causal chain over again in a massive event of complexity.

You do this by special pleading.  All events need a cause, therefore something exists outside of these events, that is God.

The problem is by creating a being outside the causal chain you invalidate the need for such a being, since now you have an event that doesn't need a cause, so, "all events need a cause" is broken.  Essentially, what caused God?  And if a causeless event is needed, it is more likely the event is infinitely simple rather than infinitely complex, or "why call the event God?"

The problem of evil is only a problem for the modern traits given to God, namely omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.  They don’t play into cosmological arguments.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2010, 08:09:23 PM »
Gah.

Look, it only adds complexity if you are actively looking for a proof of God (which is an irrational act)pursuant to appealing to divinity for an ethic or something.  A believer doesn't need a rational proof for their belief/faith and unbeliever should simply not care.  Doing so by either is a voluntary intellectual effort separate from the trust and moving of the Spirit basis of faith.

You can't describe belief as necessarily adding complexity to life, as there's no complexity necessarily inherent to having it.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2010, 09:11:57 PM »
Personally, I don't expect the origins debate to "prove" whether God exists or not.  What I do find important is whether the Bible checks out, factually.  If not, I will stop believing in it, as anything more than a thought-provoking book like any other.  Ergo, if I become convinced that the evolutionary model is correct,* I will cease being a Christian.  The two fundamentally conflict.*

*I'm not referring to things like natural selection.  I refer to the narrative of man, mammals, etc, evolving from single-celled organisms. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 10:42:42 PM by fistful »
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2010, 11:07:56 PM »
Quote
What I do find important is whether the Bible checks out, factually.

Thats where I am at as well.  Being Wiccan is a way of believing for me, that is not organized.  I worship and give thanks to a Deity on my terms.  Which is the way I believe early christians actually wanted.  More of a direct line of contact.  Kings and Church leaders said, whoa.  We dont have control if we let them do that.  So changes were made and christianity has not been tampered with to the extent that the Bible has or christianity has been hijacked to control the people.  Lets face it.  From Council at Nicaea by Constantine, Catholic power strugles and King James, the Christian Bible has, well, been altered to a version that "the powers that be" wanted it to say, not what it was intended to say.  I grew up baptist.  So I am well aware of the christian practices.  But like fistful, I would like to see a biblical story backed up be some hard archaeological fact.  That would be interesting and it would be a joy to see. 

About the only data I have seen/read about that is a good working theory attempting to back up a biblical story, is the destruction of Sodom and Gammorah(SP).  Interesting theories on that, backed up by data found in ancient Sumaria, astrological/astronomical data.  The Sumarians were sky watchers, and they rivaled the Mayans in recored keeping and sky watching. 
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2010, 11:22:21 PM »

I am not aware of anyone who has claimed that science disproves the Christian God.  
Perhaps you need to get out more.  A great many people operate on the premise that science refutes concepts of God and religion.

 ;)

...and positing a deity only creates more questions than it answers so there is no reason to believe in God.
I would say that the existence of a Creator and of a loving God (not necessarily separate entities) answers a good many questions more than it asks.  It's a far more elegant, satisfying, and reasonable answer to the greater questions in life than anything science and nature have been able to yield up to date.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2010, 11:37:06 PM »
But like fistful, I would like to see a biblical story backed up be some hard archaeological fact.  That would be interesting and it would be a joy to see. 

About the only data I have seen/read about that is a good working theory attempting to back up a biblical story, is the destruction of Sodom and Gammorah(SP).  Interesting theories on that, backed up by data found in ancient Sumaria, astrological/astronomical data.  The Sumarians were sky watchers, and they rivaled the Mayans in recored keeping and sky watching. 

Erm, that kind of thing is cool, but not quite what I meant. 

As far as the Bible and archeology, that's a pretty broad field.  Artifacts have been found that correspond to the scriptures.  Doesn't really make an airtight case, of course. 
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2010, 11:43:15 PM »
There are somewhere around 24k full or partial manuscripts of the New Testament from antiquity. It has several orders of magnitude more copies of the original manuscript available than any other book of similar antiquity, and the gap between penning the original the the oldest known copy is far smaller than other ancient books. The early church fathers quote almost the entire NT (only something like 13 verses or so are not found quoted) and those quotes agree with the current version. When the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, they were roughly 1000 years older than the previously oldest known manuscript copy of the Old Testament. They were basically identical.

To claim that the Bible has been altered by The Man to "keep you down" is factually incorrect and displays a total lack of knowledge about the subject matter. And that is the opinion of every serious scholar of the work, including many non-Christians and non-religious scholars.
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2010, 11:55:57 PM »
So the "books" that were excluded by the Niceaan council have no merit?  Constantine and early church members gathering together to decide on what books would be called the bible?  If that is not man keeping you down by deciding what will be released and what will not, I dont know what is.  Its control of subject matter. 

The Gospel of Thomas.  Early as the Death of Christ.  Not included.  Why?
THE APOCALYPSE OF PETER.  Not included.  Why?
The Book of Enoch.  Not included.  Why?

Why did the early leaders and a Roman Emperor decide what folks needed to read.  Then go on a rampage to erase and destroy the books they deemed not worthy.

These are just some that the "powers that be" decided the flock did not need to know or have knowledge.  Its a documented part of history, and is not incorrect.  This too has been studied and a many of papers submitted on this subjest matter, by religious scholars and non belivers.  The Dead Sea Scrolls also shed some light as to different versions of the same books, Genisis as an example.  So to say I have a lack of knowledge, is a bit of a stretch.  The fact of the matter is, we probably will never know the real deal.  The Bible was written by man, and anything by man is tainted. 
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2010, 11:59:43 PM »
The Gnostic Gospels and other heretical works were excluded because they directly contradicted the rest of the Bible, and suffered other issues as well. The Council of Nicaea and other canon establishing events are well documented, as are their reason for rejecting the various extra-biblical books. To claim some sort of vast conspiracy to oppress the commoners is, well.... Do you think 9/11 was an inside job?
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2010, 12:18:01 AM »
Nope, 9/11 was a murdeous rampage by Islamic crazies. 

And yes, the Gnostic Gospels hold merit.  Just because some Pagan, turned christian after a battle and Priests wanting more power over the nw religion say the Gnostic Gospels hold not weight, doesnt make it so.  You called it a conspiracy, not me.  I called it for what it is.  A meeting to design a bible, organize a religion, approved by Rome and the Religious leaders at the time.  They picked books that supported their views and ignored others that did not.  Sounds like to me that those folks that cherished the Gnostic Gospels were SOL.  And then searching and destroying said Gospels, really lends credence that there was something that they did not want to be read or contiune to grow.  Remember, Jesus preached that only through him could salvation be reached.  He died on the cross for the sins of all people.  And through god all things were possible.  Well, Roman Emperors dont want any competition.  Church leaders did not want to be outshadowed by people ignoring them and going straight to god with their prayers. 

Examples of pagan rituals being obliterated and replaced with Christian rituals, Christmas and Easter come to mind.  Destruction of pagan sites and the building of Churches upon the ruins.  Crap like that.

We will just have to agree to disagree..
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2010, 12:53:07 AM »
Remember, Jesus preached that only through him could salvation be reached.  He died on the cross for the sins of all people.  And through god all things were possible.  Well, Roman Emperors dont want any competition.  Church leaders did not want to be outshadowed by people ignoring them and going straight to god with their prayers. 

Are you saying the bolded portion is the original-recipe Christianity they wanted suppress?  If so, those people simply failed, because every English version of the Bible I've seen lays out exactly that.  Or do I misunderstand you?


Why do you date the Gospel of Thomas so early?  From what I have read, it was fairly late. 
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2010, 01:08:00 AM »
I've heard both. Early and late. Scholars argue on the dating, from around the death of christ to about 200CE. At any rate. It's obvious the Niceaan council was about control. Plain and simple, deciding what the divinity of Jesus would be and what religion the state would mandate.

My favorite reads of the non canonical books is the Book Of Enoch. Very interesting read that fills in the gaps of genisis. The apyropha is a good scource of reading as well. There were
12 disiples. Why do Matthew, Mark, Luke, And John only get to write their story.

If I can find the link, I remember a few years ago reading about some of the finds of the Dead Sea Scrolls containing approx 5-7 versions of the book of genisis. Some shorter that the king James version. Some longer.

The message of the bible is a good road map to live by. The authenticity is what I question. Religion and politics have always been used to control.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2010, 01:28:06 AM »
The purpose of the Councils (which weren't run by Rome BTW, Rome was a sideshow to the Bishops in the East for the first few Centuries, interesting story on how that changed) wasn't to "create" a consistent narrative, it was a gathering of men who were taught by the men who were taught by the men who were there (the Apostles) when Jesus was teaching.

That's what Apostolic succession really refers to.  They didn't HAVE a single leader making doctrine, it was always based on consensus and cross-checking with those in the know.

The Creeds came about because people NOT in the direct line started introducing error either accidentally or deliberately.  Hell, the first Gnostic the apostles had to deal with, bandwagonning onto the truth for personal gain, was Simon Magister in Rome who had to be taken out by Peter.

The truthers are a good parallel, people not qualified grab *expletive deleted*it out of context and mix in enough fact to make it sound sort of legit to the credulous for their own purposes.  But just because they write it down doesn't make it true even if it provides support to one's own prejudices about the church.

It's popular to bash the early church fathers (again, the Papacy is a late-comer) as some cabal of power-mongerers but the history just doesn't support that.  From a lovingly skeptical perspective see Garry Wills book, Why I Am A Catholic.
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2010, 01:52:59 AM »
Quote
Quote
Remember, Jesus preached that only through him could salvation be reached.  He died on the cross for the sins of all people.  And through god all things were possible.  Well, Roman Emperors dont want any competition.  Church leaders did not want to be outshadowed by people ignoring them and going straight to god with their prayers.
 

Are you saying the bolded portion is the original-recipe Christianity they wanted suppress?  If so, those people simply failed, because every English version of the Bible I've seen lays out exactly that.  Or do I misunderstand you?


You may be misunderstanding that, fistful.  I think Battle Monkey of Zardoz was trying to point out that these concepts virtually guaranteed that folks had to go to the Church  for absolution of their sins through Christ.  And another thing not pointed out is that one of the tenets of the Church is that we are all born sinners  --Original Sin --which again leads one back to the Church and Priests to solve that problem.

Blessed be,

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 01:58:22 AM by 230RN »
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2010, 07:06:54 AM »
Hmph, 3 pages on religion in a public forum and no big squabbles. I'm impressed. Interesting read too.  =)
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Re: Has Noahs Ark been found. Interesting read
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2010, 08:29:56 AM »
IMHO post year 312 christianity has always been about controlling political power
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"