Author Topic: Cape Cod Wind Farm  (Read 18200 times)

PTK

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 06:40:13 PM »
Solar panels on the roof.  =|

So what do I do when it snows - climb up there and shovel the damn thing  ???

Leave them alone, actually. Since they're dark colored, they're very good at melting snow. An alternate way of dealing with this issue is to have them in "hot boxes" and have thermal cells in there as well.
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PTK

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 06:41:23 PM »
GOOD. Cannot say how happy I am. Brownouts in MA are a serious issue during the summer.
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S. Williamson

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 06:49:38 PM »
IIRC, the production of solar cells is energy intensive. The solar panels that are the best for homes use infrared radiation to assist heating of the house and water. Basically they are dark colored polymer panels with a heat exchanger in them.
Since this is where a good chunk of my electricity bill is spent, that's fine by me.  =)
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Jimmy Dean

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 07:02:44 PM »
I grew up 10 miles from the illinois state line, near one of the largest coal gasification plants in the country. The problem with Indiana/Illinois coal is the sulfur content. It's cheaper to bring it in by rail from out west, than it is to remove the sulfur to comply with EPA regulations.

 
I am probably over sensitive to the nuclear thing. I dealt with too many people who wanted a magical easy fix to a problem that is decades in the making. These people often assumed nuclear is the indefinite solution.

If the waste storage facility is finished, I am fine going over 50% nuclear. I don't care if the plant is a mile from me.

What concerns me is public perception that nuclear energy is the magic cure for all of our problems. There will be less support for research into viable indefinite alternatives.

For clarity, I use the term nuclear to refer to the traditional fission power plant. I think the only real solution to the energy problem is fusion. That is trillions of dollars and decades away, if possible at all.

For your previous comment, the only reason that nuc plants will take 10-20 years to build is because they end up having to fight so many court battles.  The actual construction of a nuclear plant CAN be completed within 3 years.  (Remember, the first 6 full scale nuclear reactors IN THE WORLD, THE FIRST ONES, where built in less than a years construction time for each)\

Cost for nuclear plants are also only so high due to court fees for fighting various groups who are anti-nuclear or NIMBY folks, and the fees for the associated beaurocracy.  Some countries, i.e. france and japan, which build extremly reliable nuc reactors, build 1000-1500MW reactors for less than 1,000,000,000 USD.

Non renewable?  Technically, yes, but with literally millions of years of accessible fuel....

No where to safely store?  Yucca Mountain and WIPP are pretty darn good places for starters.   But as mentioned, if we move over to reprocessing fuels, and to breeders and fast breeders, you do not have ANY high lvl radioactive wastes to store....

Nuclear energy is also the only economical source of providing hydrogen for fuel cells to use in transportable energy (fuel cell cars, etc.) Due to the combination of heat and electrolysis needed to seperate water into H2 and O2.  (That gets more into peak power production and how you handle that particular issue, the current process for peak power is to use a nuc reactor for base power and coal/gas plants to make up the differance from base load to peak hours, when if you went nuke to cover peak, then during base load times, you can use the extra energy production to perform electrolysis on the already heated steam to create H2)


As far as teh OP.....idiots think that they can have their cake and eat it to....at least with wind power

alex_trebek

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2010, 07:58:05 PM »
Jimmy Dean:

Yucca mountain was scrapped, but the project was probably a good idea, albeit expensive.

Yes a large chunk of that 20 years is red tape. The red tape will never go away, so I think we better just accept it.

It may be economical to produce H2 from electrolysis, but I am always suspicious of processes that are not thermodynamically efficient (defined as non negative for this conversation). IE it will always take more energy to use electrolysis to capture H2 (that will be used in a non-nuclear reactor to produce energy), than can be generated. H2 O2 Fuel cells have their place, simply not as a main energy supply. Unless the O And H can be gained for nothing.

I will admit that I don't know the percentage of fissible Uranium, but I am skeptical of it being millions of years of an energy supply. I would buy hundreds without citation. Do you have a link?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 08:48:08 PM by alex_trebek »


Balog

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2010, 12:30:39 AM »
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Yes a large chunk of that 20 years is red tape. The red tape will never go away, so I think we better just accept it.

What a defeatist attitude. Are you really saying the US people can't get up the back bone to tell the greens to stfu when France has? France for God's sake!
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alex_trebek

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2010, 10:04:12 AM »
What a defeatist attitude. Are you really saying the US people can't get up the back bone to tell the greens to stfu when France has? France for God's sake!

The people don't care enough to protest over nuclear power restrictions. Even if they did, politicians wouldn't listen or care. It would like tea party version 2.

Yes I think most Americans don't have the back bone. They don't have the back bone to give up new HD TVs, or their SUVs. What makes you think they have the back bone?

I can't think of an instance where there was true deregulation in my life. Maybe Regan, but I am too young to remember. The fact that we are looking a quarter of a centry in the past to see true deregulation, tells me all I need to know about the odds.

It may be a defeatist attitude, but I don't go to Vegas and bet everything against the house for a reason.

Comparing this issue to france is invalid. Europeans don't have the same negative perceptions on nuclear power that Americans have.

Balog

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2010, 11:18:56 AM »
Have you ever talked to a European about nuclear power? I have. They have the same eco-weenies we do, they just tell them to stfu.

I view energy a lot like SS, Medicare/caid, illegal immigration, and the various welfare and entitlement programs. We've ignored them for a long time, but at some point you have to deal with them. Kinda like a person running up debt. You can get a huge mortgage, several car loans, a HELOC, and a dozen credit cards, you can ignore them and act like it'll last forever, but eventually you have to deal with the issue whether you want to or not.
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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2010, 11:39:24 AM »
What a defeatist attitude. Are you really saying the US people can't get up the back bone to tell the greens to stfu when France has? France for God's sake!
Keep in mind that the French blew up a Greenpeace ship.

Firethorn

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2010, 11:40:40 AM »
I agree with all of those problems except the new school. Research indicates that children don't benefit from smaller class sizes until you get to the point of 1 teacher to 2-3 pupils. At that point, they're a private tutor.

Do you have a source on that?  I'd imagine that it'd be on a curve;  You could probably easily convince me that there's not much difference between 20 and 30 kids, but get 100 elementary school kids in a class and you'll get a lord of the flies scenario before you get learning.

My quick research says different:
http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/ReducingClass/Class_size.html - 1978 study concluded major benefits at 'fewer than 20' with 'student assignment carefully controlled'.  1986 - smaller class sizes most beneficial k-3, disadvantaged;minority.  Teacher has to adapt teaching style to smaller classes to be effective.  1989 - 'best evidence synthesis':  For studies where the reduced class lasted at least a year, less than 20 compared to 'substantially larger', students comparable.  result:  Small positive effect that didn't persist after reduced class.

Going through the whole page; Reducing class size under 20 has a statistical benefit; but you gotta keep it up, and it's sometimes questionable as to whether it's worth the cost.  After all, going from 22 kids per class to 18 will, on average, raise the number of teachers needed 22%, along with the cost for that many more teachers.

IIRC, the production of solar cells is energy intensive. The solar panels that are the best for homes use infrared radiation to assist heating of the house and water. Basically they are dark colored polymer panels with a heat exchanger in them.

I've been trying to sell solar water heaters to my familiy down in Florida.  Still, electrical solar cells produce enough electricity to cover the energy used to make them in 2-3 years on average. 

No where to safely store?  Yucca Mountain and WIPP are pretty darn good places for starters.   But as mentioned, if we move over to reprocessing fuels, and to breeders and fast breeders, you do not have ANY high lvl radioactive wastes to store....

While I agree with you for everything else, my compulsive honesty makes me chime out on this - while you reduce the high level was problem some 90% with breeders, there is still some waste.  Still, it's actually 'more radioactive' which is another way to say 'decays faster' which leads to 'highly radioactive for less time'.  Couple centuries vs eons.

Yucca mountain was scrapped, but the project was probably a good idea, albeit expensive.

It's still around, congress voted to not completely defund it.  Obama says it's no longer an option; but that could change in as little as 3 years.  Personally though, I'd go with reprocessing - most of that 'waste' is actually fuel.

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Yes a large chunk of that 20 years is red tape. The red tape will never go away, so I think we better just accept it.
As Balong notes, what a defeatist attitude.  I'll note that piss people off with high enough energy prices the red tape will go away.

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It may be economical to produce H2 from electrolysis, but I am always suspicious of processes that are not thermodynamically efficient (defined as non negative for this conversation). IE it will always take more energy to use electrolysis to capture H2 (that will be used in a non-nuclear reactor to produce energy), than can be generated. H2 O2 Fuel cells have their place, simply not as a main energy supply. Unless the O And H can be gained for nothing.

NO process is 'thermodynamically efficient' by your standard.  We use all sorts of thermodynamically inefficient processes to provide power.  Don't think of the H2 as a fuel source, think of it as a battery.  It's converting the non-portable nuclear power to portable H2 power.  Whether you use hydrogen or batteries or something else just depends on what works out to best cover your needs for the cost.

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I will admit that I don't know the percentage of fissible Uranium, but I am skeptical of it being millions of years of an energy supply. I would buy hundreds without citation. Do you have a link?

The millions of years isn't just using Uranium, but Thorium as well.  As a note, with using Thorium and breeder reactors, it's an energy positive operation to distill the stuff out of seawater;)

In the end, I don't want us to be powered 100% by nuclear, but 50% seems to be a good figure.

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The offshore wind farm, nine years in the planning, has been blasted by critics like the Kennedys as an "economic boondoggle" that will cost taxpayers billions, hurt commercial fishing and pose a danger to wildlife along a pristine stretch of the Nantucket Sound.

Uneconomical?  Maybe to Likely;
Hurt commercial fishing?  Less likely - Commercial Fishing is Commercial Fishing's worst enemy; if anything the turbine supports will have the same effect as oil platform supports - provide shelter/attachments for fish and other sea life; creating local 'oasises' and helping commercial fishing by providing zones where breeding adults can be fully established, increasing the number of fish available for capture.
Pose a danger to wildlife?  As I said; Oil platforms actually HELP sea life.  We sink ships to help establish new spots for sea life. 

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"We're the windiest country on earth and we have lots and lots of land" on which to build wind farms, the younger Kennedy said. "Americans don’t want to pay 27 cents a kilowatt hour for energy."

You object to the potential view of turbine 5 miles and more from shore; yet support putting them on land, where presumably there'd be a lot of people closer than 5 miles away?  The cost, if true, would be a valid reason to oppose.  Quick google search says 9.06 cents per kwh, not 27.  Still high, but within limits.

Personally, I think that a lot of the questions posed could have been addressed by a single, or better yet, a small set of test turbines - it'd also give you the benefit of having a number of turbines that are older than the ones built for weathering/maintenance study purposes.


AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2010, 12:34:22 PM »
On the nuke issue.

At some point in time, we're gonna have to stand up on our own two feet and tell the nutjob enviro's to shut the hell up. 

I don't think that's gonna happen until we're looking at at least doubling or tripling our energy costs.  People just won't wake up unless it hits them in the wallet, and hits them hard. 

Personally, I think a network of small, cookie-cutter construction pebble bed reactors is one of the best approaches.  Keeps construction costs relatively low, especially if you use a modular design, something like this:  http://www.pbmr.co.za/

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mellestad

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2010, 12:44:18 PM »
On the nuke issue.

At some point in time, we're gonna have to stand up on our own two feet and tell the nutjob enviro's to shut the hell up. 

I don't think that's gonna happen until we're looking at at least doubling or tripling our energy costs.  People just won't wake up unless it hits them in the wallet, and hits them hard. 

Personally, I think a network of small, cookie-cutter construction pebble bed reactors is one of the best approaches.  Keeps construction costs relatively low, especially if you use a modular design, something like this:  http://www.pbmr.co.za/



Aren't they already doing this?  Even Obama is saying he wants a nuke reactor construction program up and running asap.

Honestly, the greens that were against nukes are literally dying.  The next generation of greens aren't as anti-nuke.

MechAg94

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2010, 04:30:10 PM »
Solar panels on the roof.  =|

So what do I do when it snows - climb up there and shovel the damn thing  ???
I live on the Gulf Coast.  What snow?

I would have to ask how many homes could be solarized for the subsidy cost of 1 big wind turbine?  Solar would probably be in service more days of the year than wind turbines also. 

It would be interesting to find a neighborhood willing to do this.  Put solar on every roof and set up metering on the lines entering the neighborhood.  See how the power input to that neighborhood was affected.  I bet they would be near energy independent except for the hotter parts of the day with all the A/C's are running.  
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 04:36:21 PM by MechAg94 »
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Jimmy Dean

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2010, 05:45:45 PM »
On the nuke issue.

At some point in time, we're gonna have to stand up on our own two feet and tell the nutjob enviro's to shut the hell up. 

I don't think that's gonna happen until we're looking at at least doubling or tripling our energy costs.  People just won't wake up unless it hits them in the wallet, and hits them hard. 

Personally, I think a network of small, cookie-cutter construction pebble bed reactors is one of the best approaches.  Keeps construction costs relatively low, especially if you use a modular design, something like this:  http://www.pbmr.co.za/



Noone mentioned it, so I will bring it up again.  There is a town in Alaska that is working on the red tape right now to install what is called a nuclear Battery.  I am working on a project in Ruston Louisiana to present to the public to install a Nuclear battery (the same one as Alaska).  The mayor and city coucil are deliberating between this and replacing the current gas plant with another gas plant.  We are looking to convince them to go nuclear.  The idea is outstanding actually, it is a replacable below surface unit that you change out, like a battery, every 30 years (they could go longer as well if needed)  It only produces 1/20th of many of the larger reactors in the country, but that is all that is needed as it is to be used to power JUSt the town of Ruston.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2010, 08:36:28 PM »
Aren't they already doing this?  Even Obama is saying he wants a nuke reactor construction program up and running asap.

What a politician says and what exists in reality are not necessarily the same thing.

Obama has done nothing of substance to remove the impediments that are preventing nuke construction.

mellestad

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2010, 11:18:21 PM »
What a politician says and what exists in reality are not necessarily the same thing.

Obama has done nothing of substance to remove the impediments that are preventing nuke construction.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/16/AR2010021601302.html

?

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2010, 12:11:45 AM »
Yucca mountain was scrapped, but the project was probably a good idea, albeit expensive.

I will admit that I don't know the percentage of fissible Uranium, but I am skeptical of it being millions of years of an energy supply. I would buy hundreds without citation. Do you have a link?

For the first problem, European countries utilizing nuclear power don't process the waste the same way we do. They reprocess it through isotope separation which removes the worst and most useless resultant isotopes. The remainder is processed into a mixed oxide fuel rod, called such because it now contains both plutonium and uranium fuels. The total mass of the spent fuel rod lost during this reprocessing is only 5%. This 5% is sealed in glass and stashed away. Here in the U.S. we chuck the entire spent fuel rod without reprocessing. A most wasteful method.

The second point, 0.7% of naturally occurring Uranium is fissionable (Ur-235), however there are reactor types (pressurized heavy water) that can utilized the normally non-fissionable Uranium remainder (Ur-238) which when separated from the other isotope is commonly known as Depleted Uranium. Since DU is no longer politically correct for use as weapon penetrators, and it's other uses are limited, that leaves much for use in fueling such reactors. In reality, we have far more DU than we use practical applications for it. Current estimated world stocks of DU are around 1,188,000 tonnes. A side effect of such reactors is that they produce excess amounts of plutonium along with some other isotopes. This raises concerns about nuclear proliferation, however for the purpose of energy generation this is actually a boon, because as stated earlier the fuel rods can be reprocessed into MOX (Mixed Oxide Fuel) rods. In essence you're burning one kind of fuel to create a second kind that you can put right back into the same machine to burn again. Additionally there is a vast amount of plutonium salvaged from obsolete and decommissioned nuclear weapons, this can also be processed into the fuel rods for additional fuel. Last time I checked there was some 20,000 tonnes of plutonium awaiting destruction as part of various nuclear reduction treaties.

red headed stranger

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2010, 04:15:20 PM »
Quote
I would have to ask how many homes could be solarized for the subsidy cost of 1 big wind turbine?  Solar would probably be in service more days of the year than wind turbines also. 

It would be interesting to find a neighborhood willing to do this.  Put solar on every roof and set up metering on the lines entering the neighborhood.  See how the power input to that neighborhood was affected.  I bet they would be near energy independent except for the hotter parts of the day with all the A/C's are running. 

I think one of the biggest missed opportunities was not putting panels on all of the new construction that happened in the Southwest during the 90's and 00's. 
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alex_trebek

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2010, 05:13:02 PM »
Solar cells have come a very long way in short amount of time. They aren't quite there yet, wiki claims an energy cost of 4.4 $/kWh in 1998, and in 2005 0.3 $/kWh. That seems a little fast paced to me, I suspect that there was probably a tax incentive or subsidy that lower the price.

Assuming that the governement has not subsidized the price, solar panels are just now becoming viable energy sources.

I think that someday they will be an acceptable supplimental energy source, but not quite yet.

Firethorn

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2010, 01:32:58 PM »
Solar cells have come a very long way in short amount of time. They aren't quite there yet, wiki claims an energy cost of 4.4 $/kWh in 1998, and in 2005 0.3 $/kWh. That seems a little fast paced to me, I suspect that there was probably a tax incentive or subsidy that lower the price.

Assuming that the governement has not subsidized the price, solar panels are just now becoming viable energy sources.

I think that someday they will be an acceptable supplimental energy source, but not quite yet.

Could you post a link to that wiki site?  I have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell, but it doesn't list your figures.  1998 isn't mentioned at all.

What wiki does say is that in 2005 electricity ranged between 60 cents/kwh for central europe down to 30 cents a kwh for 'regions of high solar irradiation'. 

Personally, I know I pay ~10 cents/kwh,  thus I figure that the cost needs to drop down by 2/3rds to be economical even in the best areas.

That's why we haven't mandated putting solar panels on every roof.  It'd be a waste of money.  Get that down to 10 cents/kwh and we'll talk.

alex_trebek

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2010, 03:11:18 PM »
Could you post a link to that wiki site?  I have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell, but it doesn't list your figures.  1998 isn't mentioned at all.

What wiki does say is that in 2005 electricity ranged between 60 cents/kwh for central europe down to 30 cents a kwh for 'regions of high solar irradiation'. 

Personally, I know I pay ~10 cents/kwh,  thus I figure that the cost needs to drop down by 2/3rds to be economical even in the best areas.

That's why we haven't mandated putting solar panels on every roof.  It'd be a waste of money.  Get that down to 10 cents/kwh and we'll talk.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_module?wasRedirected=true

the link might not work since this is being posted from my phone, and the site is for a mobile device.

Aside from the idealistic existence of being independent from the grid, I wouldn't consider solar panels until the cost was more comprable.

I think it is hard to quantify the free market cost. There has to be a metric buttload of subsidies for this industry, and it is a relatively small one.  This could mean the cost is significantly reduced, and unsustainable as a larger market.

I honestly do not know about that.


Tallpine

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2010, 03:16:26 PM »
If you are already off-grid, as in miles off grid, solar panels start looking a bit more reasonable.  ;)

But we would have to replace everything  =(

Our solution was a deep well hand pump, for worst case scenarios.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Cape Cod Wind Farm
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2010, 09:17:52 PM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
What a politician says and what exists in reality are not necessarily the same thing.

Obama has done nothing of substance to remove the impediments that are preventing nuke construction.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/16/AR2010021601302.html

?
Lack of money is not the major impediment standing in the way of new nuke plants.  Red tape (eco issues and court challenges) is the real issue.  To my knowledge Obama has done nothing of substance to eliminate the problem.

It's easy to talk big (and loan out other peoples money) when you know nothing is going to come of it.