Author Topic: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS  (Read 27798 times)

KD5NRH

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2010, 09:53:53 PM »
All road-legal vehicles aren't required to have their plate illuminated anyways

where is this the law?

In Texas, it would be Transportation Code 547.322(f)  A taillamp or a separate lamp shall be constructed and mounted to emit a white light that:
(1)  illuminates the rear license plate; and
(2)  makes the plate clearly legible at a distance of 50 feet from the rear.

Given that auto manufacturers have a lot of pull in these things, and don't want to make 50 different models, I'd expect most staes to be pretty similar.


cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2010, 09:58:59 PM »
is there a state where tag light is optional?  in all the ones i've been in if you had one installed it had to work and all the home built stuff i drove or built to tow hada have tag lights to pass inspection
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2010, 10:03:06 PM »
This thread reminds me, I really need to replace the tag lights on my car.
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Regolith

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2010, 10:20:04 PM »
Kind of like being chased down because you turn to avoid a checkpoint just because you dont want to be bothered.

Had that happen to me once.  The town I was in had two major streets, and they had set up  the roadblock at the end of one of the streets as it went out of town.  They had also put signs and road flairs down the entire half mile of the street, warning people about the DUI checkpoint.

I was going home after dropping off a friend after a school function when I turned onto that street from the end opposite of where the checkpoint was.  My turn to go home was halfway up the street.  Apparently, the police thought I was trying to skip the checkpoint and went after me after I made the turn.  The PO's excuse was that he thought I was going too fast, which was BS because I was checking my speed the entire time (I had a good idea they'd come after me, so I didn't want to give them a reason to pull me over). He as much as said he didn't have me on radar, and that it was his opinion.  

They ended up not giving me a ticket.  Still kind of pissed me off.  It tends to make me not trust the police when they lie to my face about the reason they pulled me over.

I didn't do anything about it at the time because I was 16, had just gotten my license a few months prior and didn't want my parents to know I'd been pulled over.  8 years later, and it's still the only time I've ever been pulled over.
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2010, 10:26:47 PM »
Quote
Feel free to post where someone has defended the way the cop acted. Go ahead, use that quote function. I'll wait...

You mean this statement by me?

Quote
Do I disagree with dirtbag cops who play fast and loose with the rules, and those who make excuses and take up for them.

I never mentioned anyone taking up for this officer in my indicent. Where have I mentioned that anyone has taken the side of this officer?  I stated that I disagree with cops who play fast and loose with the rules and those who make excuses and take up for them. 

Where have I ranted?  I explained my interaction, and answered/replied to posts.  I see no rant, save for my first post.  I do see folks trying to paint me as anti cop, which is not true.
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Balog

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2010, 10:31:20 PM »
I do see folks trying to paint me as anti cop, which is not true.

I just laugh and laugh every time I see this.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2010, 10:31:27 PM »
Balog if you want to continue this pissing match in forum, fine.  It may take some time for me to reply.

Why?

We, my wife and I, are just now finding out we have a runaway 18 year old somewhere between Arkansas and Kansas, that just probably ruined her life by getting married.  Our niece.  So our pissing match will have to take a 2nd chair to phone calls, and trying to piece together todays events as her parents came home to an empty house.  This girl left everything, just poof..
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Balog

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2010, 10:32:55 PM »
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things turn out alright for her.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2010, 10:33:11 PM »
Quote
I just laugh and laugh every time I see this.


Laugh, and put me on ignore, it will save us both some time.  Becasue I just shake my head when I get painted as anti cop.  It will be a knee slapper when I go shoot next week with some of the local LEOs.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2010, 10:36:11 PM »
Thanks, but things being alright for here, that train left the station a while ago.  Mother who beats her, physically and emotionally.  She stayed with us last summer.  Her first taste of freedom from her mother and father.  Fell in love with a boy.  And, from what we are finding out, have had this little surprise planned for about 5 months.  Smart kid, could have had the world by the tail, but I am afraid her actions in the next few days will dictate how the rest of her life will be.  Ask me how I know.  I got pissed and joined the Army.  I should have listened to the old man and went to college first.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

KD5NRH

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #85 on: May 13, 2010, 01:09:27 AM »
Ask me how I know.  I got pissed and joined the Army.  I should have listened to the old man and went to college first.

There are worse things; you could have done neither.  Ask me how I know.


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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #86 on: May 13, 2010, 06:41:28 AM »
Quote
we are doing "night time seat belt enforcement
  :facepalm:

Even in the areas I patrol where the area is extremely lit up at night, I would have a hard time picking out drivers not wearing seat belts.  From time to time, I can spot one on a cell phone but spotting that short section of belt slanted across the little area between the door pillar and the seat is near impossible.  Short of actually setting up a seat belt checkpoint, I have about a zero percent chance of seeing a seat belt violator at night.

And no traffic ticket quotas around here.  I've only written three infractions this year in response to the 52 stops I've completed (I just checked the CAD  ;) ).  If there's a quota, I'm going to get in some serious trouble when my eval is done in Oct.  :lol:

The three written were all for speeding- one was for a 64 in a 25 zone and the other two were for the same area with a 57 and then a 55 speed noted.  All were in the area with heavy use by pedestrians and the pedwalks were in heavy use.  Combined with the fact most of the pedestrians and the drivers out and about at that time of the morning are because all have all left the bars following last call, I think excessive speed is a tad bit dangerous.  ;)  And I hate doing veh vs ped accidents.  I find the peds usually lose and they tend to bleed all over the place.  I don't enjoy responding to those.

I usually find if I sit on the crosswalks during the 1245 to 0200 in plain view with the radar in obvious view, most folks see me and slow down.  That makes my job a lot easier- not as much drama as ensues if I have to do the whole traffic stop thing- or have the bleeding MVA victims.

Ryan in Maine

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #87 on: May 13, 2010, 07:35:06 AM »
???

Ryan, would you agree that reflective license plates are only visible at night when there's some light for them to reflect?

And would you agree that there can be instances when there are no other light sources around except what the car itself provides?
I would not agree that reflective plates are only visible at night when there is light hitting them.

I would agree that there are instances where there are no other light sources other than plate lights. I live in Aroostook County, ME. It's fairly detached from the rest of the country. Those instances around here aren't uncommon with the lack of light pollution, but they're niche situations. I'd also point out that it takes a very small amount of light to bring out the reflective properties of license plates. Not going back on what I just said, just pointing it out.

All road-legal vehicles aren't required to have their plate illuminated anyways

where is this the law?
It's a pain to look up those statutes since they aren't all listed in one place. They might even be listed separately for every vehicle type.

There are exemptions for classic/restored vehicles, vehicles past a certain age, sports cars where it would detract from the manufacturer's design, some work trucks are exempt, motorcycles and scooters, motorized bicycles, manual bicycles, and some government vehicles (USPS comes to immediately to mind). Some of them you have to request the exemption. I think classic/restored vehicles, older vehicles, and sports cars actually require you to request exemption in some cases. Maybe some work trucks too. I think it's a pretty streamlined process by now though.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #88 on: May 13, 2010, 11:17:47 AM »
well i looked and found everyplace i looked the tags gotta be lit up. in some cases you can do it without a seperate bulb  my trailers for example. so your early complaint that "all you were doing wrong was no tag light" struck me as curious.  the op has a legitiamte beef apparently. you? not so much unless you are trying to claim what you drove fit in an exempted class?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Seenterman

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2010, 04:45:52 PM »
There are no quota's . . .  :police:

. . . only "productivity targets"   ;/

Quote
The NYPD Tapes: Inside Bed-Stuy's 81st Precinct

Two years ago, a police officer in a Brooklyn precinct became gravely concerned about how the public was being served. To document his concerns, he began carrying around a digital sound recorder, secretly recording his colleagues and superiors.

They reveal that precinct bosses threaten street cops if they don't make their quotas of arrests and stop-and-frisks, but also tell them not to take certain robbery reports in order to manipulate crime statistics. The tapes also refer to command officers calling crime victims directly to intimidate them about their complaints.
.....

On June 12, 2008, Lieutenant B. relayed the summons target: "The XO [second-in-command] was in the other day. He actually laid down a number. He wants at least three seat belts, one cell phone, and 11 others. All right, so if I was on patrol, I would be sure to get three seat belts, one cell phone, and 11 others.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-05-04/news/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuy-s-81st-precinct/1


Main theme of the article, despite what the "official" word is there is in fact a quota but the rank and file guys hate enforcing it but the pressure to meet their "goals" comes from their commanding officers to the detriment  of their jobs if they don't comply. What this officer did was brave and one of the best examples of an honest police officer since Frank Serpico. These tapes where made public weeks ago, and there's been no public outcry nor are any major papers or news networks talking about it, why I don't know. It pretty much refutes all the lies NY'ers have been told by the Mayors office and the police department about ticketing quotas for years. If nothing happens even with this purponderance of evidence against the police dept. by one of their own don't expect many other officer to risk their jobs to bring corruption into the light especially if no one cares.

Sucks for the officer he'll probably be fired for "poor job performance" or some other b.s. after this is done coming out and its obvious no one cares.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2010, 04:50:48 PM »
What this officer did was brave and one of the best examples of an honest police officer since Frank Serpico.

hyperbole much?  or do we need to get you outa the house more?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Seenterman

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2010, 04:59:41 PM »
How many officer's risk their job speaking out about brass and what they feel is widespread corruption?

Can you name a few for me because I don't know of any off the top of my head besides Serpico.

Ryan in Maine

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2010, 05:18:14 PM »
well i looked and found everyplace i looked the tags gotta be lit up. in some cases you can do it without a seperate bulb  my trailers for example. so your early complaint that "all you were doing wrong was no tag light" struck me as curious.  the op has a legitiamte beef apparently. you? not so much unless you are trying to claim what you drove fit in an exempted class?
I'm disagreeing with the statute itself.

I was stopped legitimately for having a plate light out. It was honestly out all three times. No ticket any of the times either, so I got off with a verbal "Replace it and bring it to the PD to show me tomorrow" warning.

I think my beef with the statute is justified though.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2010, 05:46:20 PM »
how about the head of the us park police?
or the bp guy who started the unraveling of the ramos campos coverup?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2010, 05:51:36 PM »
I think my beef with the statute is justified though.
yea?  how so?  you were unaware that there was such a law?  all three times?
or is it that philosophy where you get to alacarte your laws?

how about make it a poll question? is the tag light law an affront to liberty or not
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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TechMan

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2010, 08:05:29 PM »
In regards to "quotas" here is an article that was just published in the local rag.



http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100513/NEWS01/5140336/1055/NEWS/Police+divided+over+ticket+quotas
Local news
Cincinnati.Com » Local news
Last Updated: 5:22 pm | Thursday, May 13, 2010
Police divided over merits of ticket quotas

By Quan Truong • qtruong@enquirer.com • May 13, 2010

Many police don't like to call them "quotas." They prefer the term "performance standard."

That's when a police department requires officers to write a certain number of tickets to prove they are pulling their weight.

Every department has different rules - some more stringent than others - and different motivations.

Some, like Lockland and Springdale, say they do it to make sure officers aren't getting lazy. Others, like Colerain Township, say it's an archaic policy and that officers can't build rapport with citizens if they're constantly writing speeding tickets.

In Woodlawn, they don't deny it's a money maker, telling the staff that quotas would generate nearly $200,000 a year.

Woodlawn's ticket goals there were so strictly enforced that in one month's time, three police officers received warnings for not writing enough citations. A department memo said if each officer wrote at least 10 tickets a month, it would generate $194,000 a year. (The village's annual police budget is about $1.5 million.) The cost of a traffic ticket in Ohio ranges from $90 to $130.

"If we would send our criminal cases into Mayor's Court instead of downtown, it would generate even more revenue," Chief Walter Obermeyer wrote, later adding: "Officers who do not meet the standards will not receive their step increases or pay raises when the village approves them."

After The Enquirer reported on the policy, Obermeyer redacted the memo and said officers no longer would be disciplined for such reasons.

"In discussing this with the Manager, I have come to realize that enforcing a definite productivity goal can be interpreted the wrong way," Obermeyer wrote. "Therefore, there is no set ticket goal in the Village and no officer will be disciplined for failure to write a certain number of tickets."

Such blatant orders by Woodlawn's chief raise a question many police departments have struggled with for years: How fair is it to measure an officer's performance by citations and arrest numbers?

It's not fair at all, said Rich Roberts, an International Union of Police Associations spokesman.

"You can't predict how many people are going to break the law at any given time," Roberts said. "It tells you nothing really, and it's also, by the way, unfair to the public. If an officer is under pressure to write tickets, they lose almost all discretion."

Marlon Smiles, 34, of Fairfield, calls it "bull."

The tow-truck driver recently received an improper passing ticket on Kemper Road in Springdale and was at Mayor's Court on Wednesday. He planned to fight the citation "tooth and nail."

"It's messed up. It makes them write tickets for things they'd normally give you a warning for," Smiles said. "The public already doesn't trust the police, and this just makes it worse. Let the cops do their job."

Springdale's police chief refused to share his department's policy, saying, "Frankly, it's nobody's business."

A public records request shows Springdale sets a minimum of 150 citations per year for first- and third-shift officers and 180 for all other shifts.

"We don't have quotas," Chief Mike Laage said. "We have standards."

He posed this question: "Should administrators allow an officer to sit behind a building and not do anything?"

In Lockland, department policy requires officers to make 10 "contacts" a month, which could mean a speeding ticket or a domestic violence arrest.

"If I wanted to write tickets on an eight-hour shift, I could easily write 15 a day," Lockland Lt. Terry Wilkerson said. "Ten a month, if they're tickets or arrests, is not an overly large number."

It's not a way to generate revenue, he said, but rather to make sure officers are not slacking on taxpayers' dime.

That sort of policy was abandoned altogether in Colerain Township 15 years ago, when a new police chief decided that evaluating an officer's performance was not based on numbers alone.

When Officer Andy Demeropolis first started working there five years ago, he issued about 80 tickets a year. Today, he issues closer to 20.

Demeropolis said that isn't a sign he's slacking, but rather that he's been working so hard, fewer people violate the rules.

"Police departments have been going back and forth for the past decade on this," Demeropolis said. "Fifteen years ago, we did that. But then we started looking at a total picture of all your work. It's not just hard stats - it's how do you get along with other agencies, do you communicate well, your rapport with the public, and training."

Bills to ban quotas are pending this year in Illinois, Tennessee and Michigan, according to National Conference of State Legislatures. A number of states already have passed such laws, including California, Maryland, Texas and New York. Ohio is not one of them.

Those who support the bills say it protects the rights of individuals. Opponents argue the state has no business micro-managing municipalities.

"We need to ban them," Smiles said. "This affects the public greatly and it's not right."

Allowing these policies to go on won't help law enforcement's image in the public eye, Roberts said, adding, "Especially when they are used as a revenue generator, it's a disservice to everyone."



My favorite is:
Quote
Springdale's police chief refused to share his department's policy, saying, "Frankly, it's nobody's business."
:O

In the next line the Enquirer got the policy via a FOIA request.  I believe the chief has forgotten who he works for.

Also:
Quote
Bills to ban quotas are pending this year in Illinois, Tennessee and Michigan, according to National Conference of State Legislatures. A number of states already have passed such laws, including California, Maryland, Texas and New York. Ohio is not one of them.
This shows that there is a great diversity in policy across these great United States.

Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

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Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

Ryan in Maine

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2010, 10:34:36 PM »
how about the head of the us park police?
or the bp guy who started the unraveling of the ramos campos coverup?
The Ramos/Compean case at the border? Fabens, TX? Rio Grande? I-10? I didn't think it was a cover-up, but what does that have to do with a plate light? I was under the impression that the shady van was their clue. I don't remember the details though. I was 21 when that happened. Been a few years.

Where are you going with this?

I think my beef with the statute is justified though.
yea?  how so?  you were unaware that there was such a law?  all three times?
or is it that philosophy where you get to alacarte your laws?

how about make it a poll question? is the tag light law an affront to liberty or not
I'm aware of the statute. My observance of it is fine after I got a fuse replaced. They won't actually fine you or ticket you for it around here. I honestly don't worry about it.

And I'm not going to make a poll, but I think you'll find a lot of members of APS find 90% of laws to be an affront to liberty.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2010, 10:37:11 PM »
the border case was for seenterman
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Seenterman

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2010, 10:14:36 AM »
The BP case isn't a good comparison to the Bed-Stuy tapes. There was no cover up , it was one officer who talked to investigator about two other officers who where involved in a shooting that wasn't documented.

There where no superiors that where engaged in a cover up. What that officer did was honest, I don't mean to demean his willingness to come forward that but its not comparable to what seems to be  an entire citywide policy of having "quotas"  especially when (thanks to adively's article) there's a specific bill that forbids that activity. 

I couldn't find anything about the head of the US park police so I can't comment on that.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: "Night time Seat Belt Enforcement" = BS
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2010, 12:02:16 PM »
There was no cover up

ramos and campos were convicted essentially for covering up their own crime    they lied a misdemeanor into a felony

heres the park cop
http://www.centerforinvestigativereporting.org/blogpost/20080215parkpolicewhistleblowerwinscaseagainstfeds
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I