Author Topic: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"  (Read 12825 times)

Ben

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"Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« on: May 14, 2010, 04:00:04 PM »
Just great. And on the front page of Fox News no less.

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/

EXCLUSIVE: Toy Gun Sold in U.S. Can Easily be Converted to the Real Thing

Felons, illegal immigrants and all others banned from buying a gun in the United States have a new alternative if they’re looking to get their hands on a firearm: Just buy a toy.

Felons, illegal immigrants and all others banned from buying a gun in the United States have a new alternative if they’re looking to get their hands on a firearm: Just buy a toy.

A FoxNews.com investigation reveals that a popular recreational pellet gun can be converted easily to a real semi-automatic weapon. And while the federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is already aware of the issue, these “toys” -- new, top-of-the-line airsoft rifles -- continue to be sold throughout the country.

Like paintball without the paint, the propane-powered airsoft guns are designed to shoot quarter-inch plastic pellets and are generally used for recreation or in military and law enforcement training.

When the ATF seized a shipment of 30 of these guns in October from a port in Tacoma, Wash., it said they could be “readily convertible” to machine guns. But gun experts called that claim absurd and said the ATF was overstepping its bounds.

Now one of those critics is reversing his position, saying at least one airsoft manufacturer has taken the quest to be authentic a little too far.

“The airsoft can be converted to an AR-15,” firearms manufacturer Leo Gonnuscio told FoxNews.com after testing the make and model of airsoft guns seized by the ATF.

Having concluded that several other airsoft guns could not be converted to fire real ammunition, Gonnuscio said he was surprised to find that he was able to to transform this particular gun to the real thing  -- and with “minimal work,” because its bottom half, or “receiver,” is so similar to an AR-15's.

To make the airsoft receiver function just like an AR-15’s, Gonnuscio said, “All you have to do is drill one hole.”

And once that's out of the way, the rest is even easier. The AR-15 receiver is the only part of the semi-automatic rifle that is given a serial number, and is the only part that is regulated. All the remaining parts of the real thing can be purchased by anyone – any kid, criminal or terrorist.

The cost of buying the Taiwan-made airsoft gun and all the parts needed to convert it to an AR-15 comes to roughly $1,100 -- more than the cost of some real AR-15s. But someone who can’t clear a background check or has been refused a gun for any other reason could use this method to make his own lethal weapon, Gonnuscio said.

Making it into a machine gun, he said, would require yet another conversion, and the makeshift gun would likely be able to fire only 15-20 rounds before it stopped working due to the pressure it would have to withstand while firing in an automatic fashion.

But as semi-automatic weapon, Gonnuscio said, “It may not last forever, but they’ve got a gun to get the job done that they were assigned to do, and nobody knows the wiser.”

The ATF has made no reported moves to regulate or seize any more of the airsoft guns, which continue to be sold in stores around the country, and it appears to be bowing to critics and reconsidering its stance on the guns' convertibility.

“We’re having to take a serious look at this, so it’s just something that we’re reviewing, and I’m hoping we’ll have some information that we can make available to the public certainly very soon,” ATF spokesman Drew Wade told FoxNews.com.

But firearms expert Len Savage said the ATF is taking a “serious look” at the wrong issue -- or, more specifically, the wrong part of the gun.

The reason it’s possible to make these airsoft receivers function as real receivers is that all an AR-15 receiver does is hold the gun together, Savage said. So with enough gun knowledge, almost anything can be made into a receiver.

“There’s a line of AR-15 firearms out there where the lower (the receiver) is made entirely of injection molded plastic … It could be made of cardboard and scotch tape,” he said.

The most important part of an AR-15, and the most difficult part to replicate, he said, is the upper half of the gun -- which is unmarked, unregulated and readily available for purchase.

“The upper is what contains the barrel, the breecher bolt, that’s what contains all the pressure,” Savage said.

He said the reason the lower half of the AR-15 is the part with the serial number, and thus classified as the receiver, is that it was up to the manufacturer to choose the location of the gun’s serial number. Because the bottom of the gun has a flat surface, it was the easiest to mark.

And though federal law has since defined a gun’s receiver as the part “which provides housing for the hammer, bolt, breechblock and firing mechanism,” Savage says the bureau has continued to mark and regulate the lower part of the AR-15 to avoid confusion.

“In the stream of commerce, you’d have uppers that were marked and regulated and then lowers that were marked and regulated, you could see the confusion on a dealer basis” in determining which parts require licensing and which don’t, Savage said.

But even though the upper half of the gun can be bought by anyone, Gonnuscio still says that banning the airsoft receivers and implementing a few new rules for airsoft manufacturers could be a good start to keeping unregulated AR-15s off the street.

“I would hope that the ATF applies pressure to the manufacturers of these airsoft guns to redesign them so they cannot be converted," he said. "Make them move the pin holes ... so that an upper can’t be attached to it without major machining.

"Fill in some of that gap so that they would literally have to chuck this thing up in a mill and totally reconfigure it to work. Tighten up the magazine well so a regular magazine won’t fit in it.”

And because the U.S. is such a big market for these airsoft guns, Gonnuscio said, a foreign manufacture would change the product if its current design were banned here.

“There are tons of good uses for these guns: We use them for training, kids do reenacting with them, kids get out there and play just like the old days. We played BB gun wars when we were kids and we survived. These are little plastic balls that are shot by electricity or propane.

"So let them have their toys. Just make sure they’re still toys.”
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2010, 05:29:30 PM »
Let's get the obvious out of the way.

1. A semi-auto is not an "assault weapon."  ;/

2. An full-auto AR-15 is not a machine gun.   ;/
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PTK

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2010, 05:37:06 PM »
I don't know how many times I can jump up and down and say this. One of the M4 all-metal "toys" can, indeed, EASILY, for less than $600, be converted with simple hand tools to accept a proper upper, accept a proper trigger and hammer, proper buffer, etc.

For less than $1k, anyone can mail order the parts to make an M4. A real one. This truly is an issue, guys. =|
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Ben

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2010, 05:39:48 PM »
I didn't mean to imply it can't be done. My "just great" comment was meant more in the line of, if this starts getting lots of mainstream media airplay, it will not be good for RKBA.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 05:41:24 PM »
How so?  Might hurt the RKBRealistic Paintball Guns, but...   ???
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Viking

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 05:46:56 PM »
I don't know how many times I can jump up and down and say this. One of the M4 all-metal "toys" can, indeed, EASILY, for less than $600, be converted with simple hand tools to accept a proper upper, accept a proper trigger and hammer, proper buffer, etc.

For less than $1k, anyone can mail order the parts to make an M4. A real one. This truly is an issue, guys. =|
I wonder if one could make a functioning 1911 pistol with a parts kit and one of those airsoft 1911 metal replacement frames...
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PTK

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 05:47:35 PM »
I didn't mean to imply it can't be done. My "just great" comment was meant more in the line of, if this starts getting lots of mainstream media airplay, it will not be good for RKBA.

My mistake, sorry. And yeah, I agree. ANY negative press re:guns, even this kind of thing, isn't what we need these days. :(
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PTK

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 05:49:07 PM »
I wonder if one could make a functioning 1911 pistol with a parts kit and one of those airsoft 1911 metal replacement frames...

No. I measured a wide variety of GBB airsoft "real metal" guns, and the answer is no. Every last pistol I checked was out of spec by at least 0.050" too narrow across the rails, wrong height of rail, etc.

I believe the only reason the M4 is so close is that the receivers are, for all intents and purposes, real already. It's cheap enough to crank out a bunch of 6061T6 receivers for "toys" out of the same molds. ;)
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Viking

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 05:52:21 PM »
No. I measured a wide variety of GBB airsoft "real metal" guns, and the answer is no. Every last pistol I checked was out of spec by at least 0.050" too narrow across the rails, wrong height of rail, etc.

I believe the only reason the M4 is so close is that the receivers are, for all intents and purposes, real already. It's cheap enough to crank out a bunch of 6061T6 receivers for "toys" out of the same molds. ;)
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PTK

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2010, 05:53:46 PM »
Also, for what it's worth, even if they DID measure properly, the metal is nowhere near strong enough. The design of an AR15/M16/M4 lends itself very well to using basically anything for a lower receiver. I've fired an oak lower receiver AR-15 before. It was... unique.
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Kingcreek

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2010, 05:58:40 PM »
Why don't we end all confusion and just reclassify all AR15s as toys?
What we have here is failure to communicate.

Ben

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2010, 07:13:54 PM »
How so?  Might hurt the RKBRealistic Paintball Guns, but...   ???

I'm thinking because if it gets mainstream coverage, Brady, etc. will have a propoganda tool that fits right into the ever popular "it's for the children" theme. Toy guns that can be turned into "assault weapons"?!? Plus I consider Airsoft part of the RKBA. "They came for the plastic BB guns and I said nothing..."

The argument doesn't have to make logical sense to them, otherwise why can I have a muzzle brake on my M1A in CA but not a flash suppressor?
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sanglant

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2010, 07:16:59 PM »
=|




sorry, not able to type with sense right now.

edit: little better now, the link is to a thread on making your own ak from a 80percent receiver. how is this any different from that. could this be someone's idea to start a storm, and go after the people selling byo parts and kits?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 10:02:15 PM by sanglant »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2010, 07:28:14 PM »
Why don't we end all confusion and just reclassify all AR15s as toys?

:laugh:

I have a friend who calls his AR his toy gun.

Tallpine

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2010, 07:29:58 PM »
Simple solution: just make it illegal to convert a toy gun to a real one  ;/
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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2010, 08:05:05 PM »
Sure they can be converted.  With the expenditure of enough money, I could "convert" damn near anything into an M4.  Stupid nonsense by the BATFE trying to work their way out of that toy store bust.
Unfortunately, it's stupid nonsense that will likely bite the RKBA right in the ass. 
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PTK

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2010, 08:25:25 PM »
Sure they can be converted.  With the expenditure of enough money, I could "convert" damn near anything into an M4.  Stupid nonsense by the BATFE trying to work their way out of that toy store bust.
Unfortunately, it's stupid nonsense that will likely bite the RKBA right in the ass.  

I disagree. This isn't just "stupid nonsense". Here are the specific issues with saying this is just regulatory nonsense:

The receivers are perfectly strong enough. (6061T6 aluminum)
The FCG pin placement, upper pins, magwell, and rear tower threads are all in spec.
There is a genuine M16 autosear in there. The "toy" has a legitimate autosear in the correct location.

To make this "toy" into a MG takes the following as an absolute minimum - shim the FCG by less than .050" (this can be skipped if you don't care about the lower surviving very long, it will egg the FCG pin holes out), put an M16 hammer in place of the toy one, and snap on an upper with an FA BCG.

Ta-da.

Not exactly a "toy". =|


If someone were selling "toy" STEN Mk2s where all you had to do was get a real magazine, ammunition, and screw a new barrel on, there'd be no question in anyone's mind. What gives, with this?


EDIT: Just to be 100% clear. These are not "toys". By the 1934NFA, they are a machinegun - a receiver that is in spec for a machinegun as-is, is a machinegun in and of itself. Period. Full stop. There is no conversion going on, they are already machineguns.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 08:28:31 PM by PTK »
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
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Fly320s

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2010, 10:15:46 PM »
So?

Machine guns and "normal" guns shouldn't be regulated anyway.
Islamic sex dolls.  Do they blow themselves up?

PTK

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2010, 10:17:01 PM »
I'm not arguing that point. Strawman argument.

What I'm arguing is that, in the current state, those M4 "toys" are legally M4s. Just because it shouldn't be illegal, doesn't make it legal. ;)
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
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"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

KD5NRH

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2010, 11:36:54 PM »
If someone were selling "toy" STEN Mk2s where all you had to do was get a real magazine, ammunition, and screw a new barrel on, there'd be no question in anyone's mind.

Heck, they already sell the kits for Sten and M3 receivers on Amazon: http://goo.gl/uULP


Jocassee

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2010, 11:58:35 PM »
What kills me is that this has already run its course. The whole world...at least the worlds of fire-arms and airsoft...hashed this out LITERALLY a month ago. FOX is jumping in late and as far as I can tell, intentionally confusing the issue by omitting known facts that you can discover with a 30-second google search.

Late. Confusing. Sensational. Thanks for nothing FOX.
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Jocassee

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2010, 12:01:57 AM »
Heck, they already sell the kits for Sten and M3 receivers on Amazon: http://goo.gl/uULP



I see wut u did there
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2010, 02:00:59 AM »
This was hashed over on one of my vet sites back in February. Very late to the party this media source is. The short of it is, yes PTK is correct.


Here's a fun site showing the similarities between the "toys" and the "real thing.." Clicky.

Tallpine

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Re: "Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2010, 12:04:30 PM »
Quote
With the expenditure of enough money, I could "convert" damn near anything into an M4.

Do you have a tax stamp for that block of steel sitting over there?  :police:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin