"Toy Guns Converted to Assault Weapons"

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

the level of understanding on thr is still low

[PTK]

Yep, I gave up over there. I got more than enough of people mocking me for saying things are illegal...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i'm about to post this and bug out over there
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” — Herbert Spencer,

[Matthew Carberry]

It's a POST-ban-on-new-machineguns receiver. They made a machine gun. How is this understandable?


"Well, it's just a toy!" doesn't really cut it.

Because it's a toy manufacturer and toy importer.  They, to their mind, did in fact make a toy.

They aren't a firearm manufacturer, they get a set of plans and build an airgun.

I'm not saying it's legally justifiable, but they've been making and importing similar toys for quite some time.  Why would they think to check the internal dimensions of this particular model and compare them to the particular regs on machineguns for just another airsoft, which are in general allowed to be FA?

[kgbsquirrel]

Why would they think to check the internal dimensions of this particular model and compare them to the particular regs on machineguns for just another airsoft, which are in general allowed to be FA?

Because it was their intent to make a "toy" that was as close to the "real thing" as possible, in this case the attempt to simulate all the outward appearances, function and handling of their "toy" resulted in a product too close to the "real" dimensions as to be legally allowable.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and their first bozo nono was an accident after the first one its not an accident anymore

[HankB]

No, the AR-15 has a different configuration to that portion of the receiver to disallow exactly that. There is a block that isn't machined out on the AR-15 that IS machined out on the M4/M16. Additionally, the sear hole isn't drilled.

You'd still have to also replace the hammer, bolt carrier, and safety, as well.

My understanding is that Colt lowers have a block, RRA lowers have a narrow section to keep FA parts from being installed, but most others lowers do not, and will accept FA parts. Is this in fact incorrect?

[freakazoid]

And that's just the vender I happen to use.

Well don't I just have egg all over my face.

No, the AR-15 has a different configuration to that portion of the receiver to disallow exactly that. There is a block that isn't machined out on the AR-15 that IS machined out on the M4/M16. Additionally, the sear hole isn't drilled.

So why isn't it labeled a machine gun i all you have to do is cut out a block, drill a hole, and then install the parts?

I remember when I was heavily into airsoft I had always dreamed of taking something like a parts kit Sten and turning into the most realistic airsoft gun, using bolt and everything. Guess I would of actually been making real machine guns, according to what I would call loose definitions. 

So could the fed come in and bust down the doors of everybody who bought one?

[dogmush]

So why isn't it labeled a machine gun i all you have to do is cut out a block, drill a hole, and then install the parts?

Well it takes a mill.  You have to reshape the reciever.  The ATF [spit] has decided that that's enough effort to make it not a machine gun.

I remember when I was heavily into airsoft I had always dreamed of taking something like a parts kit Sten and turning into the most realistic airsoft gun, using bolt and everything. Guess I would of actually been making real machine guns, according to what I would call loose definitions. 

Yep, Probably.  Remember the shoestring?

So could the fed come in and bust down the doors of everybody who bought one?

If they had 4473's on Airsoft's they'd be spinning up to do just that, I'd bet.  As I recall from the PSL welded hole debacle they give you a chance to send it in, then they knock politley.  I don't know if anyone ever pushed it past that.  As it stands now, How will they know whose door to kick?

[AmbulanceDriver]

I have to wonder if having an AR and having this Airsoft rifle (say for training, familiarization, etc, without breaking out the AR and going to the range) would be considered constructive possession by the BATFE...

[PTK]

JUST the airsoft gun receiver is a machinegun, legally. There isn't constructive possession in play.

[AmbulanceDriver]

I hate to say this, but I think the BATFE is actually in the right on this one (as far as the law goes).  Granted, I don't agree with the NFA to begin with, but in the legal framework that we currently have to deal with, you shouldn't be able to assemble a functioning assault rifle from the lower of an Airsoft toy.

[CNYCacher]

So, is this pretty much how you would handle PR if your friend / neighbor / mother in law brings it up?


"Did you hear about the toy guns that can be easily made into machine guns?"
"No,  though I heard about the real machine guns which were being sold as toys."

[freakazoid]

Yep, Probably.  Remember the shoestring?

Oh yeah. Oh dear lord, 

[HankB]

Found this entry at ar15.com regarding receivers . . . if the assertions are accurate, and airsofts are "illegal machine gun lowers" because they'll accept M16 parts, then it seems that just about all AR15 lowers other than Colt are also "illegal machine gun lowers."

So . . . are the writer's assertions correct, or is he all wet? 

  . . . In years past just about all AR15's were mil spec in regards to the components that the lower receiver would accept. This meant that it was fairly easy to install M16 components in the receivers. A combination of certain M16 parts could allow an AR15 to fire more than two rounds automatically thus meeting the definition of a machine gun.

Recently the ATF relaxed its position but not in the way that most people would like to believe. The ATF issued a letter to Colt stating that they could use M16 bolt carriers in their semi auto AR15's. Here's what the letter didn't say. Colt has made numerous changes over the years to make their AR15's more difficult to convert to fire automatic than any other company. They have changed the size of the hammer and trigger pins, the size of the front receiver pin, installed sear blocks, and most recently neglected to machine a channel completely through the lower receiver in front of the rear takedown lug. All of these modifications were designed to make it more difficult to install M16 parts or parts designed to work with M16 parts.

Because of some of these changes, including the most recent one of leaving a web of material in the lower receiver, the ATF has allowed Colt, and only Colt, to use M16 bolt carriers in their commercially available AR15's . . .

[AJ Dual]

Found this entry at ar15.com regarding receivers . . . if the assertions are accurate, and airsofts are "illegal machine gun lowers" because they'll accept M16 parts, then it seems that just about all AR15 lowers other than Colt are also "illegal machine gun lowers."

So . . . are the writer's assertions correct, or is he all wet? 

Don't sweat it. Semi-auto AK (AKM really) receivers are even closer. Instead of a correctly placed hole milled through a forged AR receiver (a non Colt without all the blocks, incorrect pin sizes, and stuff in the way), the AK is just a hole through a thin sheet metal box of a receiver.

The "third hole of doom" in an AK is practically a hand-tool operation if you're careful enough. The AR still at least requires a modicum of machining precision. (vs. say "woodworking precision".)

[HankB]

Don't sweat it.

Not sweating it . . . it's just not clear to me how an airsoft lower is an "illegal machine gun" simply because it will (allegedly) accept M16 parts, but AR15 lowers - other than Colt - which will accept M16 parts are not.

Makes me wonder a lot, too, about those "80% finished" lowers I see . . . even with no M16 parts on hand, can the machinist who finishes one inadvertently make a machinegun by milling out the lower a little too much?

[Matthew Carberry]

and their first bozo nono was an accident after the first one its not an accident anymore

Isn't this incident their first "no-no"?  "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" simply means you don't get to avoid sanction, it doesn't mean you are intentionally wrong prior to being informed otherwise.

Again, offshore toy manufacturer, the regs they would rationally look at are their local manufacturing regs and maybe import regs, which may or may not further reference actual domestic FA manufacturing regs.  If anyone had even a remote reason to go out of their way to go looking to ATF for regs about toys it was the importer.  However, why would they?  For all outward and inward purposes they are just bringing in airsoft.  Why would they think to look outside that import chapter in a totally different book in a totally different library to start measuring internal dimensions on a toy lower?

This is reasonable ignorance, not even insupportable stupidity, much less negligence or real culpability.  That's all I'm saying.

[sanglant]

colt, the dumbest gun maker...ever. a rifle marked LEO only and still going out of the way to inhi, oh that way a PD can't buy ar-15s and convert. got it. i'm getting slow.

[dogmush]

I'm still unclear as to why they mark it "Law Enforcement Use Only" and then sell it to anyone.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

this whole stink started when they grabbed shipments that came in sans the orange tip  was not the first instance of that. i think that this time closer investigation by atf showed the previously undiscovered oops.  all along there has been the usual  zomg atf  rants.  as well as some quiet impassioned "experts" opinions

[Angel Eyes]

I'm still unclear as to why they mark it "Law Enforcement Use Only" and then sell it to anyone.

Sales tactic.  Makes the suckers customers think they're getting something special.

"Oooh!  Law Enforcement Only!  This will go great with my Ranger SXT ammo."

[Mabs2]

oak lower receiver AR-15

New goal in life.

[Matthew Carberry]

New goal in life.

Isn't there some sort of rare endangered Brazilian hardwood that would serve two purposes in that use?

[Mabs2]

Isn't there some sort of rare endangered Brazilian hardwood that would serve two purposes in that use?

Just as I'm not interested in insulting religions just for the sake of it I'm not interested in wasting something rare just for the sake of it.

Plywood will do fine.