Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

[Tallpine]

it also increases risks to innocents and the police simply due to the nature of the beast


doesn't work that way in real life

The Cato map would seem to indicate otherwise 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i think the fallacy inherent in that was already pointed out. surely the sage radley could add the other data.  total number of swat raids etc.  that he doesn't makes a cynical man wonder.  after all fair honest total disclosure is what makes him famous right?

[taurusowner]

As opposed to what?  100 seems like a big number until it's compared to 10,000.  10,000 seems like a big number until it's compared to 1,000,000.  You can't just throw up a map and a list of incidents and say it's a huge problem until you backdrop it with something.  Like SWAT incidents that don't go wrong.  That's why the map is incomplete.  It doesn't show their numbers as part of total SWAT incidents good or bad.

Good polls and statistics show totals.  IE "We polled 40,000 people in these areas _______, and x percent of them agree with this, while y percent of them disagree with the other side, plus or minus 2 percent."  or "Out of 10,000 incidents of this act _____ nationwide, 2,567 of them were found to be  ______"

You can't just say, "There were x number of this" and then claim "SEEE ISN'T IT THE WORST THING EVAR!!1!"


An honest statistician shows totals.  This map does not.  Not to mention this little gem "Other examples of paramilitary police excess."  Define paramilitary excess.  No, not your opinion of what it should be.  Give me a solid 100% proven definition of paramilitary excess.  "Innocent" means someone was a suspect and was found not guilty of the crime.  "Police injury or death" means that there is documentation of a police officer being injured or killed.  Those are facts.  But WTF is "paramilitary excess"?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

radley doesn't really want that kinda accuracy  it would confine his writings. it better serves his agenda to do it the way he does now  cherry picking is fun

[Tallpine]

i think the fallacy inherent in that was already pointed out. surely the sage radley could add the other data.  total number of swat raids etc.  that he doesn't makes a cynical man wonder.  after all fair honest total disclosure is what makes him famous right?

What fallacy  

That it is okay to shoot a few innocent people and dogs, and rape people psychologically just to keep some dope from being flushed down the toilet  


Let's suppose that I have a shooting range in an urban backyard.  I'm very careful, so 99.9% of the bullets go into the backstop.  So what if 1 bullet goes astray and hits some kid in the head - bad things happen sometimes, you know

[taurusowner]

What fallacy  

That it is okay to shoot a few innocent people and dogs, and rape people psychologically just to keep some dope from being flushed down the toilet  


Let's suppose that I have a shooting range in an urban backyard.  I'm very careful, so 99.9% of the bullets go into the backstop.  So what if 1 bullet goes astray and hits some kid in the head - bad things happen sometimes, you know

Then you should never fire a weapon forever right?  If there is any chance of anything you do going wrong in any way, you should never do it forever right?

[makattak]

Then you should never fire a weapon forever right?  If there is any chance of anything you do going wrong in any way, you should never do it forever right?

Of course that's ludicrous.

However, even if he takes the precautions necessary for setting up a range such that the risks are minimized, who will be held responsible if an accident happens and some poor child gets killed by an errant bullet?

I think SWAT is a useful tool that is being overused because there are few consequences for the errors that accrue due to overuse. Increased accountability will decrease errors.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

What fallacy  

That it is okay to shoot a few innocent people and dogs, and rape people psychologically just to keep some dope from being flushed down the toilet  


Let's suppose that I have a shooting range in an urban backyard.  I'm very careful, so 99.9% of the bullets go into the backstop.  So what if 1 bullet goes astray and hits some kid in the head - bad things happen sometimes, you know

what fallacy?  you want me to pull all htg's posts together? i know you read em 

[alex_trebek]

As opposed to what?  100 seems like a big number until it's compared to 10,000.  10,000 seems like a big number until it's compared to 1,000,000.  You can't just throw up a map and a list of incidents and say it's a huge problem until you backdrop it with something.  Like SWAT incidents that don't go wrong.  That's why the map is incomplete.  It doesn't show their numbers as part of total SWAT incidents good or bad.

Good polls and statistics show totals.  IE "We polled 40,000 people in these areas _______, and x percent of them agree with this, while y percent of them disagree with the other side, plus or minus 2 percent."  or "Out of 10,000 incidents of this act _____ nationwide, 2,567 of them were found to be  ______"

You can't just say, "There were x number of this" and then claim "SEEE ISN'T IT THE WORST THING EVAR!!1!"


An honest statistician shows totals.  This map does not.  Not to mention this little gem "Other examples of paramilitary police excess."  Define paramilitary excess.  No, not your opinion of what it should be.  Give me a solid 100% proven definition of paramilitary excess.  "Innocent" means someone was a suspect and was found not guilty of the crime.  "Police injury or death" means that there is documentation of a police officer being injured or killed.  Those are facts.  But WTF is "paramilitary excess"?

I think paramilitary excess is a pretty obvious event. Things like sheriff departments buying .50 caliber machine guns, remodeled Bradley fighting vehicles, etc. Then using this paramilitary equipment on people who you politically disagree with.

Raiding homes in the middle of the night with a warrant signed by a secret court. These go against everything this country was founded on.

I find myself disturbed by your comment on innocent people. Saying a suspect is innocent only after bring found not guilty is a huge violation of the foundation of our justice system. I don't care if the guy in this example was hitting a bong as the police were entering his home. He is innocent until proven guilty.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Then using this paramilitary equipment on people who you politically disagree with.


where has that happened?  in real life in the usa i mean

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Raiding homes in the middle of the night with a warrant signed by a secret court.

which real case are you referring to? if any

[Tallpine]

what fallacy?  you want me to pull all htg's posts together? i know you read em 

Yes, I read them.

The Cliff's Notes version is "*expletive deleted*it Happens.  Get over it."   


Sorta reminds me of what they used to tell women about rape.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you squint and miss the parts about how the type of selective data points the sage uses are not conducive to a real analysis? or just don't wanna address it?
radley fudges on a regular basis to feed his agenda

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Yes, I read them.

The Cliff's Notes version is "*expletive deleted* Happens.  Get over it."   


Sorta reminds me of what they used to tell women about rape.

You may have read, but you didn't come anywhere close to comprehending.  The point was not "*expletive deleted*it happens get over it."

[p12]

Someone should enlighten them about the raid in Lubbock, TX.

Cost the life of one officer and something like a dozen damaged homes.

Hundreds or thousands of rounds fired. Because the dude had a phone in his hand.

When I get a chance I'll look it up.

Brad may have the info bookmarked.

[taurusowner]

I think paramilitary excess is a pretty obvious event. Things like sheriff departments buying .50 caliber machine guns, remodeled Bradley fighting vehicles, etc. Then using this paramilitary equipment on people who you politically disagree with.

Raiding homes in the middle of the night with a warrant signed by a secret court. These go against everything this country was founded on.

I find myself disturbed by your comment on innocent people. Saying a suspect is innocent only after bring found not guilty is a huge violation of the foundation of our justice system. I don't care if the guy in this example was hitting a bong as the police were entering his home. He is innocent until proven guilty.

I'm sorry, but if your group is putting together a study to show the statistics of something and you want to be taken seriously, you don't get to rely on "well, it should be pretty obvious" to define what you're studying.  That is intellectual dishonesty at it's worst.

And you seem to be unfamiliar with the idea of warrants.  Someone is suspected of a crime.  Officer goes to judge to get a warrant, and then conducts the raid.  The person is the suspect of a crime until evidence comes to light that removes them from the suspect list.  Don't try to make this into some "you don't believe in 'innocent until proven guilty'" BS argument.  The map is referring to raids on houses with suspects who were later found to be innocent.  That is something that can be researched.  Find the person named on the warrant, and find if a criminal case was pursued to trial against them and if yes, were they found innocent.  It has nothing to do with a presumption of innocence at your trial like you're referring to.  It's about people suspected of crimes, named on warrants, and then later not found to be guilty.


If the Brady Bunch put up a map on their website of what they claim were incidents which show private gun ownership to be wrong, and one of the things they used was "Incidents where use of a gun was excessive", you know DAMN well every single member of APS and THR would be demanding to know exactly what they consider excessive.  Using vague terms and cherry-picking data with no overall view of all comparable events is the telltale sign of a poll or study that is just meant to push and agenda.  If the Bradys did it, you'd all be up in arms.  But because it happens to support and agenda you agree with, that sort of lazy and dishonest reporting is perfectly fine.

[Tallpine]

But the fact remains that violent raids on wrong addresses do happen, innocent families are traumatized, pets and people are shot and sometimes killed.

Just last week a little girl was killed by a trigger happy cop in Detroit. 

But that's okay with some people.   

Some of you seem to think that anyone who questions anything police do is at best an anti-authoritarian anarchist, and more likely a felonious criminal.

What I question (heartily condemn!) is police using extraordinary tactics in ordinary situations.

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Officer goes to judge to get a warrant, and then conducts the raid.  The person is the suspect of a crime until evidence comes to light that removes them from the suspect list.  Don't try to make this into some "you don't believe in 'innocent until proven guilty'" BS argument.  The map is referring to raids on houses with suspects who were later found to be innocent

How can you "later found to be innocent" when
it was the wrong address?  Officer went to a judge and somewhere down the line "SOMEONE" didn't do their job to make sure the CORRECT address was raided. You know, the real address where the suspected criminal is. Not the wrong address where innocent people live.

So the person(s) who did not do their jobs need to be fired, jailed and never be able to be a LEO or be around a gun ever again. I'm tired of this oops, color of law magic mushroom. If your a detective making a case for a warrant, do your damn job and detect the correct address. Investigate all avenues, and then go over it again just to be sure before you monkey ninja the wrong house.

[Battle Monkey of Zardoz]

Delete

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The map is referring to raids on houses with suspects who were later found to be innocent

in real life that is not what the map refers to  and in true balko fashion it fudges even those cases. i e

May 18, 2008—CT

Police in Easton conducted a heavily-armed drug raid on the home of Ronald Terebesi, Jr, after a woman reported that she had witnessed drug activity at the house that morning. They began the raid by throwing flash bang grenades through Terebesi's windows, then battering down his door and storming the house. According to police, an unarmed man, Gonzalo Guizan, charged the raiding officers, at which point they shot and killed him.

The subsequent search yielded a small amount of cocaine residue and some cocaine pipes. Terebesi was charged with drug possession and drug paraphernalia.

is classified as an innocent man in balko land

[Tallpine]

Police in Easton conducted a heavily-armed drug raid on the home of Ronald Terebesi, Jr, after a woman reported that she had witnessed drug activity at the house that morning. They began the raid by throwing flash bang grenades through Terebesi's windows, then battering down his door and storming the house.

I still don't get where "a small amount of cocaine residue" is worth all that 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

outa 43 cases where the folks were innocent radley out and out lies 9 or 10 times in another 6 there is not enough info to tell  then there are 2 where the cops shoot back after taking fire one where a guy throws wine in the cops face and goes for his gun. plus they figured waco in.  

i think radley counts on none of the disciples taking the time to read all the fine print he puts out.  apparently with his readership hes right

[taurusowner]

How can you "later found to be innocent" when
it was the wrong address? 

Once they realize it was the wrong address/person.  Are you really asking such an obvious question?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

heres a great balko move  this is categorized as a nonviolent guy

Robert Lee Peters

July 7, 1994—FL

Police in St. Petersburg, Florida raid the home of Robert Lee Peters. Peters' seven and nine-year-old children are also home at the time, as well as Peters' stepfather, Karnis Lewis.

The SWAT team targets Peters' home shortly after raiding the home of his brother. Police say they knocked and announced themselves before entering. Lewis says he heard gunshots well before he heard any announcement.

Upon hearing the initial commotion, Peters and Lewis go to a back bedroom to retreive a gun from a safe and hear the pounding and gunfire. One bullet nearly hits Peters' son and, according to Lewis, provokes Peters to begin firing at the front door, where police are attempting to break in with a battering ram.

Peters is shot multiple times and killed by the SWAT team. Lewis' contention that the family had no idea they were being raided by police seems to be supported by the fact that the family called 911 twice during the raid.

Peters died in front of his two children. Police did find a significant amount of marijuana in the home.

Source:

Tim Roche, "'We were just a family watching TV,'" St. Petersburg Times, July 23, 1994.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

heres another one he lists as "excessive"

Richard and Sharon Betker

August 4, 2006—WI

The Milwaukee Police Department obtained a no-knock warrant to search the home of Richard and Sharon Betker for illegal weapons. Neither had a violent criminal record, they owned their home, and they had no involvement with drugs.

About 10:30 p.m., as the police entered the house, Richard got a handgun from a nightstand and called out asking who the intruders were. Betker was shot in the finger and the left shoulder by an officer armed with a semiautomatic M-4 carbine.

During the raid, police officers broke the house’s picture window and the front and back doors.

Richard Betker was not charged with any crime. Sharon Betker pleaded no contest to a charge of being a felon in possession of a firearm, as she was convicted of check fraud in 1982, fined $250 and sentenced to five days she had served in the House of Correction.

There is a civil suit filed be the Betkers pending.


lets see cops get warrant for illegal guns  find illegal guns  truly excessive