Author Topic: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids  (Read 36089 times)

Tallpine

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #100 on: May 28, 2010, 03:02:04 PM »
Okay, well I can see we are on totally different planets here ...  =(
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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #101 on: May 28, 2010, 04:09:58 PM »
Quote
Once they realize it was the wrong address/person.  Are you really asking such an obvious question

your not getting it. The popo was at the wrong house. The people inside were not suspected of any crime. Wrong house!  But the people inside were later found to be innocent because it was a .gov
sponsored home invasion.

If you want to defend the popo fine. It would help your defense if the popo did their job and got the right house. And the only thing that will make people to use their brains before a raid is having a consequence afterwards. And I don't mean dept x is investigating dept x's swat team. That like this Sestak crap. Obamas lawyers have investigated and found Obama did nothing wrong. Trusting the fox to tell you he didn't kill the chickens is BS.

This overuse of swat ninjas is like using a sucking chest wound dressing for a
damn paper cut
 
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roo_ster

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #102 on: May 28, 2010, 04:17:58 PM »
Okay, well I can see we are on totally different planets here ...  =(

Yep, some folks think it is perfectly appropriate to use paramilitary goons on American citizens for weak tea like, "cocaine residue on this & such."  Residue.  For residue we tear up a man's house and terrorize the occupants.  Or, just screw up the whole deal and get the wrong house, tear the place up, shoot the dogs, and terrorize the occupants for nothing.

Hey, if it makes one LEO's career path easier, it is all worth it.
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alex_trebek

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #103 on: May 28, 2010, 04:26:42 PM »
Then using this paramilitary equipment on people who you politically disagree with.


where has that happened?  in real life in the usa i mean

Here is an example of raiding people planning to protest the RNC with SWAT teams to charge them with fire code violations.  How can any reasonable person interpret this as anything other than political suppression?  It's probably their fault for having a different opinion.


I'm sorry, but if your group is putting together a study to show the statistics of something and you want to be taken seriously, you don't get to rely on "well, it should be pretty obvious" to define what you're studying.  That is intellectual dishonesty at it's worst.

And you seem to be unfamiliar with the idea of warrants.  Someone is suspected of a crime.  Officer goes to judge to get a warrant, and then conducts the raid.  The person is the suspect of a crime until evidence comes to light that removes them from the suspect list.  Don't try to make this into some "you don't believe in 'innocent until proven guilty'" BS argument.  The map is referring to raids on houses with suspects who were later found to be innocent.  That is something that can be researched.  Find the person named on the warrant, and find if a criminal case was pursued to trial against them and if yes, were they found innocent.  It has nothing to do with a presumption of innocence at your trial like you're referring to.  It's about people suspected of crimes, named on warrants, and then later not found to be guilty.


If the Brady Bunch put up a map on their website of what they claim were incidents which show private gun ownership to be wrong, and one of the things they used was "Incidents where use of a gun was excessive", you know DAMN well every single member of APS and THR would be demanding to know exactly what they consider excessive.  Using vague terms and cherry-picking data with no overall view of all comparable events is the telltale sign of a poll or study that is just meant to push and agenda.  If the Bradys did it, you'd all be up in arms.  But because it happens to support and agenda you agree with, that sort of lazy and dishonest reporting is perfectly fine.

Examples of paramilitary police:


From the texas FLDS raid two years ago.  You know the one in which no one was charged with committing the crime of which they were accused.  I think they managed to spend 14 million dollars to nail these people for $30,000 due in taxes and hunting without a permit (presumably as the sole means for their food supply).  Yeah I am sure it was all for the children, and had nothing to do with politics/religion at all.



I am sure sheriff departments totally need a .50 caliber machine gun.  The name "Peacekeeper" doesn't sound like propaganda at all.  I don't have a problem with individuals who own one, paid for with their own money, and used for their own entertainment.  I have a problem with sheriff departments who buy an APC with a M2 mounted to it.




Definition:
Paramilitary: of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force

I think any typical SWAT team could be fit this definition, especially if they are using military equipment.


lets see cops get warrant for illegal guns  find illegal guns  truly excessive

I think that a $250 check fraud (resulting in 5 DAYS in jail) is minor even by your standards.  Since we feel the need to make everything a felony nowadays, of course it is easy to find a felon with a gun.  Now we have to prove that it didn't belong to her husband, something I have yet to hear.  Either way, it wasn't justified use of using a SWAT team, to find one illegal item.

When everything becomes a felony, we will all be felons.


Yep, some folks think it is perfectly appropriate to use paramilitary goons on American citizens for weak tea like, "cocaine residue on this & such."  Residue.  For residue we tear up a man's house and terrorize the occupants.  Or, just screw up the whole deal and get the wrong house, tear the place up, shoot the dogs, and terrorize the occupants for nothing.

Hey, if it makes one LEO's career path easier, it is all worth it.

I would like to also point out that a lot of legal tender technically has drug residue on it.  Theoretically this means that just about anyone reading this has drug residue in their home at any given moment. 

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #104 on: May 28, 2010, 05:20:43 PM »
From the texas FLDS raid two years ago.  You know the one in which no one was charged with committing the crime of which they were accused.

just because its not on rockwell doesn't mean it didn't happen


you missed out on the flds guys starting to cop pleas?



SAN ANGELO, Texas — Michael Emack walked into the courtroom, sat down and stretched out his handcuffed hands to shake with those around him, with his lawyer Randy Wilson, with Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints spokesman Willie Jessop, and finally with the man seated next to him, Lehi Barlow Jeffs, who was there to plead no contest to charges of bigamy and sexual assault of a child.

Emack and Jeffs were the latest sect members, fellow residents of the Yearning for Zion Ranch, to be sentenced as an outcome of the state raid on the ranch two years ago.

Emack’s orange jumpsuit clashed with Jeffs’ blue button-down shirt. Emack, 59, an FLDS member, had pleaded no contest in January to sexual assault of a child, a 16-year-old girl with whom he fathered a child. He received a seven-year sentence from 51st District Judge Barbara Walther.

Emack was in Walther’s court again Thursday to plead no contest again, this time to a charge of bigamy.

The state, led by prosecuting attorney Eric Nichols, presented dozens of records to make the case that, besides his legal wife, he had three “spiritual” or “celestial” wives.

“You intend to give up your right to a jury ... and your right to remain silent?” Walther asked Emack before the evidence was presented.

“Yes,” Emack said.

Walther sentenced him to seven years, to be served concurrently with his previous sentence.

Jeffs, 31, and the nephew of the former leader of the FLDS, was next. He took a plea deal and was sentenced to eight years in prison for sexual assault of a child, a girl who was bound to him in a nonlegal marriage when she was 15 years old. The assault itself — based on the date of birth of her child — was alleged to have occurred on Sept. 18, 2006.

Jeffs also plead no contest to bigamy. He was sentenced to eight years, to be served concurrently with his other sentence.

A trial on a charge of sexual assault of a child had been scheduled for Jeffs on Monday in Schleicher County.

Both Jeffs and Emack will need to serve half of their sentence before becoming eligible for parole.

The lawyers worked out the conditions under which Emack and Jeffs could appeal their cases, namely if granted an appealed motion to suppress evidence or if the constitutionality of bigamy laws were successfully challenged.

“Your appeal will be limited to what we have discussed,” Walther told Jeffs. “Do you understand?”

Jeffs said he did.

“The grounds we have reserved for appeal are very strong,” Wilson said.

Nichols also presented a stack of papers with family group records, priesthood records, birth records, letters and forensic DNA reports before Walther found Jeffs guilty given his no contest plea.

Wilson said the entire prosecution of FLDS members amounted to religious persecution.

“Religious matters should be separate from matters of government,” Wilson said. “They are too high and holy. ... All people should be free to the free exercise of religion. ...

“The government should have no more to do with the principals of religion than with the principles of mathematics.”

Wilson said the state of Texas regularly helps underage girls who are pregnant but those who assaulted them are not pursued or prosecuted.

Outside the courthouse, with law enforcement personnel flanking him, Nichols said that the plea for no contest is practically the same as a guilty plea.

Jessop, who often acts as a spokesman for the FLDS, said the “selective prosecution” that the state is engaged in hasn’t altered much since he came to San Angelo during the April 2008 raid that, based on what is now thought to be a hoax phone call alleging abuse, resulted in the removal of more than 400 children from the ranch and the seizure of personal and community property to use as evidence against the FLDS.

“My first introduction to the courthouse was a big yellow tape around it that said ‘crime scene,’” Jessop said. “There is no change.”


another one




Texas conviction of FLDS member resulting in fascinating jury sentencing experience
As detailed in this local report, which is headlined "Testimony in Sentencing for FLDS Member," the recent conviction in Texas of an FLDS member on sex charges has now led to a fascinating jury sentencing proceeding:

    A jury that convicted a member of the Utah-based FLDS Church will begin deliberating his sentence. After a day-long hearing on Monday that included hours of testimony, a judge set closing arguments and deliberations on Tuesday in the case of Raymond Jessop. Jessop, 38, was convicted of child sex assault for fathering a child with a 16-year-old girl who was a polygamous wife. He faces up to 20 years in prison.

    The jury is deciding the sentence. On Monday, testimony included an FBI agent, a pair of Texas Rangers who testified about documents, and two former members of the polygamous church.

Here are more details about the jury sentencing proceedings in this case from additional media accounts headlined "Talk of 'celestial wives,' long-term effects of assault," and "Sentence is expected Tuesday for FLDS man":

    Jurors are to report back 9:30 a.m. today to the improvised 51st Judicial District Courtroom to hear closing statements from the defense and prosecution.  Then they will begin the task of deliberating on what his punishment should be for sexually assaulting a 16-year-old girl in November 2004 at the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado.

    Jurors will have to choose between two portraits drawn in the courtroom of Jessop.  Is he the self-sacrificing, hardworking father who can cross the boundaries of religion and culture to form friendships and who can be trusted not to smoke, drink or cuss around someone’s family?

    Or, as the prosecution would have jurors believe, is Jessop the powerful FLDS man who benefited from the church grooming underage girls to accept marriage with men twice their age, married eight “purported” wives in addition to his legal wife, helped hide now imprisoned Warren Jeffs and endangered his unborn child and the victim while she was in labor?

    Jessop could receive two to 20 years in prison.  He could also receive community supervision.

Anyone inclined to make predictions about how the jury will sentence in this case?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #105 on: May 28, 2010, 05:29:21 PM »
Here is an example of raiding people planning to protest the RNC with SWAT teams to charge them with fire code violations.  How can any reasonable person interpret this as anything other than political suppression?  It's probably their fault for having a different opinion.



i tried to find out more about what those arrested were charged with and the dispositions. strangely i was unable to. not knowing that i can't interpret it one way or the other
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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alex_trebek

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2010, 05:34:21 PM »
Actually I did miss that.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2010, 05:38:58 PM »
so did i  if you hadn't made me look i'd still not know.  there are more to come i believe and they are all pleading.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2010, 05:52:42 PM »
Yep, some folks think it is perfectly appropriate to use paramilitary goons on American citizens for weak tea like, "cocaine residue on this & such."  Residue.  For residue we tear up a man's house and terrorize the occupants.  Or, just screw up the whole deal and get the wrong house, tear the place up, shoot the dogs, and terrorize the occupants for nothing.

Hey, if it makes one LEO's career path easier, it is all worth it.
Now, I won't speak for the others here, but I don't see anything that indicates folks think this way.  I think a lot of you are reading things into posts that aren't there, overreacting to stuff that nobody is saying. 

I'm still kinda curious to see if anyone asks whether I'm against excessive police raids.  I've said I have no bone in that debate and haven't weighed in on it one way or the other.  (I've argued against relying solely on the CATO map as evidence of police excess, but haven't commented on the police excess issue itself.)  And yet people are all too eager to brand me a statist simply because I haven't expresses immediate lockstep agreement on the issue.

Critical thinking has been conspicuously absent from a lot of the remarks here.   =|

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #109 on: May 28, 2010, 05:59:53 PM »
radley has that effect. if folks use only the data he presents they can call bs.  if you dig more it gets worse.  his specialty is to take one or 2 media reports and cherry pick em for factoids he likes. more damning to me is he'll cite a court case and conveniently leave out details that don't serve the cause
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tallpine

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2010, 06:13:12 PM »
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relying solely on the CATO map as evidence of police excess

The CATO map isn't evidence, it is merely a compilation of "evidence" (or incidents) that may or may not be presented accurately.

There's plenty of incidents that I have heard about directly as they happened from the various media, such as the mayor of the little town in Maryland and the elderly woman shot and killed in Atlanta.  Those were so well known that I doubt that I need to document them.

There's also a dividing line between innocent/wrong address, and guilty of something but still the force was out of proportion to the so-called crime.  As far as I'm concerned, no amount of MJ in the world is worth breaking down doors, setting the house on fire, and shooting people for.  A residential meth lab is a hazard in and of itself, but I doubt that it would be a good idea to go throwing a flashbang in there  :O


Quote
I'm still kinda curious to see if anyone asks whether I'm against excessive police raids.

Well, nobody has been keeping you from speaking your mind, have they?  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tuco

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #113 on: May 28, 2010, 06:49:34 PM »
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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #114 on: May 28, 2010, 08:24:10 PM »
Quote
his specialty is to take one or 2 media reports and cherry pick em for factoids he likes.


You mean cherry picking like that Atlanta cop who cherry picked and lied to raid an old womans house.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

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With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #115 on: May 28, 2010, 08:29:00 PM »
no  but i take that to mean your not comfy with discussing how the sage balko works?  i don't blame ya a bit
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2010, 11:14:53 PM »
Nope. I don't follow balko at all. I follow the news reports and research for myself. It doesn't take too much research to notice that SWAT is overused and there is little accountability when a screw up happens.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #117 on: May 29, 2010, 06:53:41 PM »
you do research?!  good then you can answer the questions the followers of the great radley can't/wont?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Bigjake

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #118 on: May 29, 2010, 10:08:09 PM »
I'll throw in ( late to the party, didn't read all of the responses)  That the vast majority of the instances on the Cato map, could've easily be prevented by a bit on honest police work.  Would we tolerate that kind of stupidity out of a private corporation? 

Yeah, I thought not.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #119 on: May 29, 2010, 11:32:25 PM »
how close did you look at the seers work? in one category he fibs on 25% of the entries  and that just from reading the cources that he used himself. the sage produces much manure in his crusade. reflects poorly on the crusade. he relies on folks not looking
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #120 on: May 29, 2010, 11:54:17 PM »
Well it's a tactic shown to be tried and true by the likes of the Bradys as well.  When you're preaching to the choir, you can rely on them turning a blind eye to your research.  True unbiased studies or polls tend to be much more exact and specific with their data.  The fact that so many vague terms and unspecified and uncorroborated data is used puts the whole map in doubt.  Though, as the author knew, those who agree with the agenda don't care one bit, and the map was a success.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #121 on: May 30, 2010, 12:24:06 AM »
Well, nobody has been keeping you from speaking your mind, have they?  ;)
Nope, nobody has been prventing me from giving my opinions on whether police raids are excessive, misused, abused, or whatever.

On the other hand, nobody has been at all curious about my opinions on those points.  I find that interesting.  Normally it wouldn't mean anything at all, as my opinion usually isn't special or noteworthy.  But this time some people think my opinion on these points is noteworthy, so much so that they're eager to criticize me for it.  Wouldn't you think they'd be curious to know what my opinion is, even as they're criticizing it?

Apparently not.

Now before anyone gets huffy that I'm playing coy about my opinion rather than just stating it, be aware that I'm doing this to drive home my earlier point.  People are reading things into the discussion that simply aren't there, ignoring parts of the discussion that ought to matter.  People are reacting when they should be thinking.

APS is usually very logical and rational about these sorts of things.  What happened here?

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2010, 12:37:42 AM »
Every person has a few touchy subjects where they are more susceptible to throwing thought out the window and driving on emotion.  For many APS users, this seems to be one of those subjects.

roo_ster

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #123 on: May 30, 2010, 02:08:15 AM »
Nope, nobody has been prventing me from giving my opinions on whether police raids are excessive, misused, abused, or whatever.

On the other hand, nobody has been at all curious about my opinions on those points.  I find that interesting.

No, it is not interesting.  Life is just too short to spend any of it begging the coy to show us some leg.  Do or don't, it is up to you.  The point you are trying to make isn't so pointy.

As to my previous post you thought presumptuous, it referenced csd's criticism of Balko data set.  CSD didn't like Balko's classification of the folks so raided as "innocent," despite having no cocaine measurable in the usual units (gram, kilgram, etc.) on the premises, just cocaine "residue" on some implements.  It is not presumptuous to deduce that CSD thought they were not innocent, despite the evidence so thin on the ground as to be unmeasurable with the usual tools(0), and thus worthy of a paramilitary raid. 






(0)  The LEOs in question were not forthcoming in quantifying the residue.  Milligram, microgram, nanogram, picogram...what are they calling "residue?"  I have some dollar bills that are near-certain to have cocaine residue on them and I have never used the stuff.  The refusal to quantify what they found on the low end, despite the usual trumpeting of quantities found on the high end, does not inspire confidence and smells of "Oh *expletive deleted*it, we gotta find something, anything or we're gonna get hammered!"

Reminds me of an account where a LEO beats the living *expletive deleted*it out of a guy for no good reason.  A fellow cop, worried that the first LEO is going to far and will get into trouble, stops it after a bit and searches the guy and, much to his relief, finds a single mj joint on the bloody pulp.  Because finding as little as one joint makes alright to bloody up a man in a fit of pique.  So, no need to report the fellow LEO. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids
« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2010, 02:15:28 AM »
i don't believe i counted anyone with residue unless they got convicted. i am willing to go incident by incident and outline each time he fudges and the times he out and out lies. is a lie of omission a lie?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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