Hip Hop Explained

[...has left the building.]

When I was a teenager a few years back, my classical guitar teacher was also a sound engineer. I helped him on one rap album and I have to say, if you guys think sampling, layering beats, etc. etc. is easy, you are grossly ignorant. I can teach a person to play three chords on the guitar well enough to play hundreds of songs within a month. Do you think you could mix a 50 Cent (<---whose music I generally can't stand) song such as "Ski Mask Way"? Disco D produced the beat on that song. Do you think you could put it together? Of course it is ruined once 50 Cent starts rapping over it but still.

[richyoung]

When I was a teenager a few years back, my classical guitar teacher was also a sound engineer. I helped him on one rap album and I have to say, if you guys think sampling, layering beats, etc. etc. is easy, you are grossly ignorant. I can teach a person to play three chords on the guitar well enough to play hundreds of songs within a month. Do you think you could mix a 50 Cent (<---whose music I generally can't stand) song such as "Ski Mask Way"? Disco D produced the beat on that song. Do you think you could put it together? Of course it is ruined once 50 Cent starts rapping over it but still.

Sampling is PROFOUNDLY easier than learning to play, compose, and WRITING YOUR OWN MUSIC - else why sample?  It's a LOT easier to program a drum machine than to play drums.  Who do you think the REAL musicians are, Queen, or Vanilla Ice?  Rick James or MC Hammer?  Led Zepplin or P.Diddy?  Stealing is easy....

[...has left the building.]

So you're telling me that Nickleback (who has one song that they vary in 50 different ways) are better musicians than say the RZA? Sampling IS writing your own music. By your logic, Beethoven was a hack because he used the same damn 12 notes that Bach used...and played mostly on the same instruments.

Regardless, sampling is far from blatant stealing that is necessitated by a lack of talent. And if you really believe that, there is no use arguing with you.

Furthermore, I think some of us should read about how well over 100 years ago, people scoffed at the idea that a new technology was art. This technology was called "photography".

[zahc]

Rap sucks.

Stated more generally, X sucks, where X is any genre of popular music.

Thinking along genre lines is dangerous. There are only two kinds of music...music I like and music I don't.

[Guest]

anything produced by generation "Y" has been pitiful.......

[brimic]

Whatever sells, I don't care, I'm not exactly in the rap music buying demographic.  One man's noise is another's music.

[richyoung]

So you're telling me that Nickleback (who has one song that they vary in 50 different ways) are better musicians than say the RZA?

Nickleback writes, arranges and PERFORMS the music on INSTRUMENTS.  What "instrument" does RZA play, (other than a turntable, incorrectly...)?  How much music theory does he know?  Would you HONESTLY rank him alongside Louis Armstrong, Jimmy Hendrix, Nat King Cole, Scott Joplin?

Sampling IS writing your own music.

NO.  Smapling is stealing something someone else wrote and performed.  Tone-Loc didn't WRITE the music to "Wild Thing" or "Funky Cold Medina" - Van Halen and KISS did - he just took it.

By your logic, Beethoven was a hack because he used the same damn 12 notes that Bach used...and played mostly on the same instruments.

NO - he would have been a hack if he TOOK the composition of another, (its how you ARRANGE and TIME those twelve notes, plus how you ASSIGN them to different instruments....), and claimed it as his own.  By the logic you are TRYING to assign to me, everybody who wrotes is plagerizing Shakespear because they use the same letters.   Nope - not what I said.  The music thieves are just recording a clip of someone else's work because they are A. incapable, or B.  too lazy to WRITE AND PERFORM THEIR OWN WORK!

Regardless, sampling is far from blatant stealing that is necessitated by a lack of talent. And if you really believe that, there is no use arguing with you.

In some cases, like the Gorillaz, you are right.  In the vast amjority of them, the music of their betters is stolen, usually without the knowledge or permission of the original authors, to provide backing tracks for the obscene, violent doggeral that passes for "lyrics" in rap "music".

Furthermore, I think some of us should read about how well over 100 years ago, people scoffed at the idea that a new technology was art. This technology was called "photography".

There may be artistic elements to photography, but even you would have to admit Ansel Adams ain't no Rembrant or Piccasso, (much less Maplethorp).

[Balog]

If you want to know of sampling as artistry look at Bogdan Raczynski. If you want musical sampling, look at Amon Tobin.

Neither are anything even remotely related to rap (my favorite Bogdan piece is entitled "Fnck you DJ") but both showcase the technical level that can be achieved.

And that's not even getting into the complicated world of Richard D. "Aphex Twin" James.

[...has left the building.]

Rich- Dude you and I are like oil and water and I find it hilarious!

Performance doesn't consitute muscianship, for example: a composer who can only play the piano marginally well but has a talent for arrangement and voicings...so he has an orchestra perform the work. Another point that I'm trying to make is that just because things are arranged differently, it doesn't matter if you're rearranging a "Am/C/G/Em" chord progression or some Van Halen riff on a sample. For 99.999% of musicians, it has all been done before. Of course you get those CRAZY performers like Armstrong or Jimi that revolutionize how people perceive musical theory and composition. But for the vast majority of musicians, they are reinventing the wheel. Just because they reinvent the wheel on instruments and perform on them doesn't make their art any more valid. Look at Johnny Cash, one of my favorite artists, he even rips guitar riffs and vocal melodies off of HIMSELF. Does that make him a non-musician?

Even though I've spent years studying the guitar style that is IMHO the most difficult, classical, I still don't understand why people think difficulty validates someone as an artist. I think that notion is somewhat juvenile, just as juvenile as a mall goth thinking he is really sticking it to the man by being fat, pissed off, and wearing black near the arcade For an example of this, see the Yngwie, who is an incredibly guitarist from a technical standpoint...but who the hell cares? I'd rather listen to Cash play "G/C/D" and sing about life.

Anyway, if you get the chance, go to http://www.fortminor.com with your speakers on and tell me that the voicings/beats of the first song that plays, "Remember the Name" are not excellent. All of this was arranged by one guy, who also performs, who also played all of the instruments on the album.

[richyoung]

Rich- Dude you and I are like oil and water and I find it hilarious!

Performance doesn't consitute muscianship, for example: a composer who can only play the piano marginally well but has a talent for arrangement and voicings...so he has an orchestra perform the work.

...but he would be severly handicapped, if not precluded, from doing so if he could not play at all.  Almost always, one had has to play something, even if at only a marginal level, to compose.  The exception would be those individuals so gifted that they can compose and play entirely in their mind, but I'm sure you'll agree those aren't the individuals we are discussing...

Another point that I'm trying to make is that just because things are arranged differently, it doesn't matter if you're rearranging a "Am/C/G/Em" chord progression or some Van Halen riff on a sample.

I contend it most certainly DOES matter - from all standpoints, legal, moral & ethical.  Serious question - can music be plaigerised?   If so, what constitutes such plaigerism?  I  (and the courts) contend that it CAN be stolen...

For 99.999% of musicians, it has all been done before.

Your midterm paper on Hemingway has been done before - thats no excuse to pass off someone else's work as your own....

Of course you get those CRAZY performers like Armstrong or Jimi that revolutionize how people perceive musical theory and composition. But for the vast majority of musicians, they are reinventing the wheel.

As a classical guitar player, I would expect you to know that the "reinventing the wheel" stage had to be passed through by the creative geniuses you list before they could transend the current state of the art.  Imagine how much poorer the world woud be if Eddie or Jimi just pasted together tapes of other bands and "rapped" doggeral verse  over them, instend of working up to, and through, the "reinventing the wheel" stage.  Not to mention that you sell the enire process far too short:  think anyone else ever used the chords G - D -C, G- D- Am, before Bob Dylan "reinvented the wheel" and wrote "Knockin' on Heaven's Door"?

Just because they reinvent the wheel on instruments and perform on them doesn't make their art any more valid.

Yes, it does.  As someone who can play an instrument, it should right roundly P-*-*-* you off that some one can steal, (frequently without authorization) someone else's real music, slap some bathroom wall poetry over it, and call it "music".  They are no more "musicians" than the fellow who loads the cds into the jukebox.

Look at Johnny Cash, one of my favorite artists, he even rips guitar riffs and vocal melodies off of HIMSELF. Does that make him a non-musician?

No it means he can only sing comfortably in a handful of keys, and that his playing style tends to emphasize certain keys out of that range.  If his whole career was based on "sampling" James Brown and Sony and Cher, and bragging about getting shot over the samples, then yes, that WOULD make him less of a musician.

Even though I've spent years studying the guitar style that is IMHO the most difficult, classical, I still don't understand why people think difficulty validates someone as an artist.

...maybe because if its easy, and everyone or almost everyone can perform it, it won't receive respect.  Just like sports - I notice "hopscotch" and "bowling" aren't olympic events....

I think that notion is somewhat juvenile, just as juvenile as a mall goth thinking he is really sticking it to the man by being fat, pissed off, and wearing black near the arcade For an example of this, see the Yngwie, who is an incredibly guitarist from a technical standpoint...but who the hell cares? I'd rather listen to Cash play "G/C/D" and sing about life.

As a guitarist myself, I appreciate both.  Guitar gymnasts like Yngwie, Micheal Angelo, Vai, Satriani, Van Halen expand minds and push the boundaries of whats considered "possible" on the instrument.  A blistering speed lick is just as valid an expression of emotion as "Folsom Prison Blues" - its another tool in the toolbox.  But i would rather listen to ANYONE playing an instrument with a living, breathing rhytm section than any canned, sampled rap dreck.  (Besides, that "mall goth" kid just MIGHT be inspired by the Man in Black....)

Anyway, if you get the chance, go to http://www.fortminor.com with your speakers on and tell me that the voicings/beats of the first song that plays, "Remember the Name" are not excellent. All of this was arranged by one guy, who also performs, who also played all of the instruments on the album.

I'm firewalled from this site while at work - if he played the instruments, then HE isn't the kind of cat I'm complaining about.

[...has left the building.]

Rich,

There is really nothing I can say that can convince you that sampling is not stealing and that there is a high degree of musicianship involved. I've been on both sides, I've worked with people who do sampling and I also play an instrument. I think you just need to sit down with someone who samples while they're working on something.

I don't see a difference in me playing "0-2-2-X-X-X", eight times in a row, at 220 bpm, all downstrokes a la Metallica and samping a tiny clip Metallica playing the same thing.

[Guest]

When a jazz musician "samples" during improvization it is called "quoting", is that "stealing" too?

[richyoung]

Rich,

There is really nothing I can say that can convince you that sampling is not stealing and that there is a high degree of musicianship involved. I've been on both sides, I've worked with people who do sampling and I also play an instrument. I think you just need to sit down with someone who samples while they're working on something.

I've been on both sides as well - I worked at Frontier Music in Lawton Oklahoma from 1994 until 2001 on Saturdays.   I did minor repairs and sold gear to all kinds.  I'm not saying that sampling is completely devoid of musicianship - it just requires a lot less than actually playing,   Ansel Adams may be a heck of a photographer, but none of his work rises to the level of a "Night Watch", or a "Mona Lisa", or "The Scream".

I don't see a difference in me playing "0-2-2-X-X-X", eight times in a row, at 220 bpm, all downstrokes a la Metallica and samping a tiny clip Metallica playing the same thing.

I do - and here;'s one difference.  To play it on guitar, you have to learn it.  To play it at 220 bpm, you have to practice, at least a little.  To play it at that speed, correct, almost all of the time requires more practice.  To sample it, you don't need to practice at all and you don't even need a guitar and amp.  See the difference?

[richyoung]

When a jazz musician "samples" during improvization it is called "quoting", is that "stealing" too?

Not unless it consists of a major part of a new work he claims authorship over.  April Wine's "I Like To Rock" tipped its musical hat to the Beatle's "Day Tripper" and the Stone's "Satisfaction".  If  you can't understand the difference, that WOULD go a long way toward explaining why this mush is polluting the air waves as "popular" music...

[280plus]

I see sampling as someone being too lazy or not having enough talent to come up with their own ideas. (or both) It's a cop out in my book. I did some studio work a while back, I could lay down all those tracks with no problem, even if I AM a little rusty. I've done some pretty complicated ORIGINAL stuff before but not in the rap genre. Mostly for studio training projects. It's not hard if you know what you're doing, just time consuming. My question is, do the original artists get any royalties from these "samplings"?

FWIW, I spent last Saturday nght helping to set up and break down the sound for a 16 or so member Spanish style group. Classical guitars, congas, timbales, horns, string section, two percussionists, upright bass and a drummer, the works. All miked and with monitors. It had been a LONG time since I'd done any of that. It was like being a kid again!

I even trouble shot a hum for them. Seems you can't run the same signal through THREE preamps befroe it gets to the power amp. Who woulda thunk?