Sheriffs Gone Wild! Illegally overcharging LTCF's by up to $13

[RevDisk]

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/allentown/mc-lehigh-county-gun-permits-20100624,0,4297837.story

Lehigh County officials are scrambling to figure out if Sheriff Ron Rossi's office has been illegally overcharging gun owners for licenses to carry concealed firearms.

The sheriff's office sent legislation to the county commissioners this week asking for the fee to be increased from $25 — the amount set by state law — to $38. While other counties also charge more than $25 for such licenses, Rossi's staff began charging the higher fee years ago without legislative approval, spurring a slew of questions and criticism at this week's commissioners' meeting.

Commissioner Andy Roman said the county may have "a serious issue here" and called for an audit of the program as well as a legal review to see if people who've paid $38 for the licenses are entitled to $13 refunds.

More than 300 people apply for concealed-carry licenses in Lehigh County each month, officials said, meaning around $50,000 collected per year could be in question. The commissioners didn't vote on Rossi's fee request this week and are expected to discuss the matter more next month.

Rossi wasn't at Wednesday night's meeting and did not return calls for comment Thursday.

He did speak to The Morning Call on Tuesday in advance of the meeting, saying his office began charging the higher fee in large part to cover the costs of equipment that produces a hard-plastic version of the firearms license, which can also come in a less durable paper version. He also said applicants can opt for the less expensive paper license if they don't want to pay the extra $13.

But the written application instructions given by the sheriff's office say nothing about the less expensive option.

"The completed application must be returned by the applicant personally to the sheriff's office with the appropriate fee of $38.00," the instructions say. That line is capitalized, underlined and in bold text in the instructions. The instructions also say the "concealed-weapons permit is a plastic card" and don't refer to a paper version.

And Stanley Bialecki, a Bethlehem resident who attended Wednesday's commissioners meeting, said he received a hard-plastic concealed-carry license from the sheriff's office in 2005 and paid the higher rate. He said no one there told him he had the option of paying only $25.

Bialecki said he didn't have a problem with the higher fee.

"I do have a problem with it not being done in compliance with the law," he said. "It's the sheriff's department, for God's sake."

Pennsylvania's Uniform Firearms Act gives county sheriffs the responsibility for handling concealed firearms licenses in most areas, including the Lehigh Valley. That law also sets the fee for such permits at $25 and says anyone "who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection" could be charged with a summary offense.

Rossi isn't the only sheriff whose office charges more. Many charge more than the state-mandated fee to cover the costs of a hard-plastic license. Northampton County, for instance, charges $35 for a concealed-carry license.

Bob Merski, the Erie County sheriff and acting director of the Pennsylvania Sheriffs' Association, said his office in northwestern Pennsylvania charges as much as $26 for a license. Applicants there are given the option of a $25 paper license, he said, but are told they can get a hard-plastic version for the extra $1.

He said almost every applicant wants the more durable plastic version, which stands a better chance of remaining intact for the five years such licenses are valid.

"A lot of sheriffs across the commonwealth have never had anybody ask for a paper product," Merski said. "They all ask for the plastic card."

He declined to comment on the fact at least some Lehigh County applicants aren't told they could pay less than $38.

"That would be a question that the sheriff there would have to answer," he said.

Christie Caywood, a spokeswoman for the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association, said her organization hasn't received specific complaints about Lehigh County, but its members are concerned about the fees sheriffs charge for concealed-carry licenses.

"There are always concerns that local authorities may arbitrarily raise the prices, or do so with little warning to gun owners in the community," she wrote in an e-mail. "Low-income families are the ones who feel the greatest impact when any fee changes, and we hope that as the sheriff moves forward with making a formal policy, he will keep these concerns in mind.

State Rep. Gary Day, a Republican who represents parts of Lehigh and Berks counties, said a constituent complained to him about the $38 fee at Rossi's office. He's been pressing Rossi for answers about the fee since then.

"This is a big issue to me because it's pretty clear in state statute," he said. "When I found out it was one of my counties, I wanted to work with our sheriff to just get it right, and then I found out that it was across multiple counties."

Day said sheriffs shouldn't need to charge more than $25 to pay for hard-plastic licenses in part because part of the state-mandated fee is supposed to be set aside to pay for new equipment and other steps to modernize the process.

He said he thinks Rossi may have received incorrect advice about what his office is allowed to charge for concealed firearms permits, and that the sheriff will give up on the $38 fee.

"It is a transition period, and I want to recognize that, but it's clear that it should always have been a $25 fee and not higher," Day said. "My goal is to get the policy right. … I'm hoping that he changes the policy, and I would be happy with that."

brian.callaway@mcall.com

610-820-6168

Gun charges

$25 — Amount county sheriffs can charge under state law for licenses to carry concealed firearms.

$38 — Amount Lehigh County Sheriff Ron Rossi's office has been charging for the licenses. He's now seeking permission from the county commissioners to do so.

I'm kinda LOL'ing over the uproar over the $13.  Yes, it's a serious matter and a crime.  But the license is good for 5 years...

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

I would expect a CCW badge for the extra $13. Demand yours today!

[MicroBalrog]

Oh the oppression.

[RevDisk]

Oh the oppression.

::shrug::  Not our fault we wrote a state constitution that had many good ideas.  Not sure if you're up on various state histories, but PA was founded on religious freedom.  We took all of the groups that were persecuted for whatever reason.  We have a metric ton of Mennonites, Anabaptists, Quakers, Amish, etc.  Freedom is kinda a viral thing.  I often think our state constitution is a better written document than the federal one.  You can hear "And we mean it." after many of the sections. 

Any law that spends more time listing punishment for various government organizations than punishment for its citizens is a good law.  It is oppression, however minor, for the government to infringe upon our civil liberties.  If we have the legislature, the Attorney General, and the people come down on the sheriffs like a ton of bricks over $13, they will severely hesitate before performing more serious violations of our Section 21 rights.  They SHOULD cringe at the thought of doing so.

"The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

It is debatable whether even $5 per year is acceptable "questioning" our right to defend ourselves and our state.  But any increase done without the consent of the people is obviously a threat that cannot and shall not be tolerated.  Even if it's just slightly over $2 per year.

[kgbsquirrel]

I can only wish for a $38 CCW application here. Mine cost $100.00, payable in personal check form only, to the Sheriff and then $52.50, payable in money order form only, to CBI.

[RevDisk]

I can only wish for a $38 CCW application here. Mine cost $100.00, payable in personal check form only, to the Sheriff and then $52.50, payable in money order form only, to CBI.

Why so much?

Next you'll be telling me it takes them longer than 10 minutes to give it to you.

[MicroBalrog]

I can only wish for a $38 CCW application here. Mine cost $100.00, payable in personal check form only, to the Sheriff and then $52.50, payable in money order form only, to CBI.

Only $150? Sounds like a deal.

[CNYCacher]

Why so much?

Next you'll be telling me it takes them longer than 10 minutes to give it to you.

What's the process for out-of-staters?

[seeker_two]

In Texas, it's $140 for a 4-yr CHL.....not counting the cost of the CHL training.....and it takes @ 6 months for your license to arrive from Austin.... 

If our incumbent governor wanted to get some quick votes, he'd push for AK/VT style CCW....but he's not that smart...

[zahc]

Wife and I just legally immigrated into TX...gonna cost like $500 for us to get CCW permits. And I still can't open carry legally, even with the permit. I'd go back to OH, but no jobs there.

[KD5NRH]

In Texas, it's $140 for a 4-yr CHL.....not counting the cost of the CHL training.....and it takes @ 6 months for your license to arrive from Austin.... 

If our incumbent governor wanted to get some quick votes, he'd push for AK/VT style CCW....but he's not that smart...

It's been a slow run, but things have been getting better every legislative session.  We got car carry and improved castle doctrine last round, and could have had school and parking lot carry if the Ds hadn't managed to delay them long enough to prevent votes.  Once we get a few more restrictions out of the way, the delays and price will move to the top of the priority list.

It's also important to remember that the governor of Texas is largely a figurehead; aside from signing the laws, he doesn't have much in the way of official power, and he doesn't have much under-the-table power either.  Perry has gone on record several times wanting to get more places opened up to carry, but it hasn't done anything to get past some of the problems inherent in the state's legislative model.

[eyebrows]

Yeeouch fellas! It's $125 for a lifetime license here. I got mine several years ago and it took about a month. My SO applied for hers just the other day and was told it might take up to 8 weeks.

[Sergeant Bob]

::shrug:: 
Any law that spends more time listing punishment for various government organizations than punishment for its citizens is a good law.  It is oppression, however minor, for the government to infringe upon our civil liberties.  If we have the legislature, the Attorney General, and the people come down on the sheriffs like a ton of bricks over $13, they will severely hesitate before performing more serious violations of our Section 21 rights.  They SHOULD cringe at the thought of doing so.

"The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

It is debatable whether even $5 per year is acceptable "questioning" our right to defend ourselves and our state.  But any increase done without the consent of the people is obviously a threat that cannot and shall not be tolerated.  Even if it's just slightly over $2 per year.

This right here.

[kgbsquirrel]

Why so much?

Next you'll be telling me it takes them longer than 10 minutes to give it to you.

90 days from the day of application. And they take the full 90. I got a phone call saying mine was finished at 4:45 pm on the 90th day and ready for pickup. Oh and they were closing at 5:00 so I better hurry.  

On top of that they were trying to do application by appointment when I first started the process, not when I scheduled the appointment to apply. They gave me an appointment 6 months out, and that would have been when the 90 days would have started. My bank initially gave me a MO for $52.00, forgetting the 50 cents I marked and then I missed their error before turning it in. CBI (Colorado Bureau of Investigation) kicked my paperwork back because of the missing 50 cents and they graciously allowed me to simply have my bank issue a second MO for the missing 50 cents instead of making me take all the paperwork back and get a new MO issued for the exact amount, which apparently is what they have done repeatedly in the past. Mind you they do not take credit card, debit card, personal check, cashiers check or cash. Money orders only.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm kinda LOL'ing over the uproar over the $13.  Yes, it's a serious matter and a crime.  But the license is good for 5 years...

The crux of the issue isn't that the license is good for five years, the crux of the issue is that the county sheriff is breaking the law and overcharging for the licenses. And, while $13 doesn't sound like a lot of money, especially amortized over five years, how about if we look at it as a percentage? The legally-mandated fee is $25 ... $38 is a 52% overcharge. IMNSHO a government office that overcharges for anything by 52 percent deserves a bit of uproar.

PA has some very good laws, but they seem to be a bit lax on follow-up. For another example: PA has country courtrooms in a lot of county buildings that also house administrative offices for county departments that have nothing to do with the court system. Carrying firearms is not allowed in the courtrooms, but is legal in other parts of the buildings. So they have a law that requires each county to provide secure storage for firearms for those entering the courtrooms.

Good idea. Good law.

Unfortunately, most counties ignore it.

[Scout26]

I'm in Illinois.  So to quote Charlie Brown, "All I got was a rock."

I do have a PA Non-Res licence* from Denny Nau, the Sheriff of Centre County a few years back for $20.  I heard that PA has changed the law regarding Non-Residents and I should re-new mine before September of this year.




*Allows me to carry in Indiana.

[RevDisk]

I'm in Illinois.  So to quote Charlie Brown, "All I got was a rock."

I do have a PA Non-Res licence* from Denny Nau, the Sheriff of Centre County a few years back for $20.  I heard that PA has changed the law regarding Non-Residents and I should re-new mine before September of this year.

*Allows me to carry in Indiana.

What changed law?   AFAIK, there have been no modifications to resident or non-resident LTCF's, nor are any on the docket.

[MechAg94]

In Texas, it's $140 for a 4-yr CHL.....not counting the cost of the CHL training.....and it takes @ 6 months for your license to arrive from Austin....  

If our incumbent governor wanted to get some quick votes, he'd push for AK/VT style CCW....but he's not that smart...

First, it got changed to 5 years in the last legislative session.  Also, from what I have heard, turnover times at the DPS has improved a lot in the last year.  I've heard some people report 30 days.

Second, if you want changes, write your legislative candidates.  Include a check if you want since the election is coming up.  The next legislative session starts in January and new bills get introduced before that.

Third, Perry has been a good gun rights supporter.  I've heard him stop short of supporting open carry or unrestricted carry, but that issue is fairly new in Texas politics.  I think it surprised a lot of people last session.  Even the TSRA didn't have it on their radar.  

[red headed stranger]

My wife got hers in the mail 4 days after she sent the app.  Of course, it won't be necessary most places we go in AZ pretty soon.   

[French G.]

LTCF? Who cares how much the guy charges for a License To Curse at Furbys?

[Angel Eyes]

LTCF? Who cares how much the guy charges for a License To Curse at Furbys?

I thought it was a License To Club Furries.

[Scout26]

What changed law?   AFAIK, there have been no modifications to resident or non-resident LTCF's, nor are any on the docket.

Something about having to do it in person, not by mail anymore, IIRC.

[RevDisk]

Something about having to do it in person, not by mail anymore, IIRC.

Wait, wut?

Happen to recall the name of the law or have a copy handy?  I never heard of anything like that going through the legislature.