Author Topic: take our jobs . org  (Read 7297 times)

P5 Guy

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2010, 12:47:27 PM »
Well I was agreeing with you, but anyway to get back to the Farm Workers and immigration from the opening post...

Why does Big AgriBusiness have to have guest workers to do all the plowing, planting. and picking? They must be smart businessmen can't they come up with ways to automate there process?
Hire the best at the best wages. One will need well educated workers to solve the problems of automating the process. And operating and maintaining these machines. Apprenticeships and "On The Job Training" have a history of providing the needed skills at the lowest cost to the worker and the boss.
Working together to increase return on investment for all concerned. Stoop laborers should be a stopgap measure not the final solution. Americans want to work in safe and efficient work places for a fair wage.
When the owner/CEOs of all the businesses see that taking all the profit from the business and not reinvesting enough to keep up the working conditions and machinery then we will never have "Corporations too big to fail" which really means the Corp. is contributing too much to the elected public servants.

Immigration into the USA is a privilege we grant to those that will be a asset to the USA, not a burden. If one wants the benefit of the club one need to pay the initiation fee and the dues. Having access to the fruit of our labor is a right for the boss and the worker. It just isn't going to happen with the system we have now. Yes, get business out of government and government out of business.







Jamisjockey

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2010, 01:37:58 PM »
P5 guy:

Unions and Progressives have driven the cost of living in America up. Minimum wage laws and taxes make it profitable to use illegal immigrant labor.  And in many instances its a way around OSHA and other Regulatory compliance. 
Some parts of agriculture have been successfully automated.  But that's all pie-in-the-sky-what-ifs, and frankly a bit of a strawman. They have no incentives to automate systems, or find Americans to do the work.  Employers get away with hiring illegals because they feed the coffers of the Right, and because the left sees illegals as another future voting block.  The political will isn't there, so business has NO incentive to find another avenue.  And with so many Americans content to sit on thier fat asses and collect Welfare, live in Government housing, and do nothing, why would they actually go out and work for a living?

You cannot have a successful prosperous nation with open borders AND a welfare state.   
JD

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makattak

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2010, 02:05:05 PM »
P5 guy:

Unions and Progressives have driven the cost of living in America up. Minimum wage laws and taxes make it profitable to use illegal immigrant labor.  And in many instances its a way around OSHA and other Regulatory compliance. 
Some parts of agriculture have been successfully automated.  But that's all pie-in-the-sky-what-ifs, and frankly a bit of a strawman. They have no incentives to automate systems, or find Americans to do the work.  Employers get away with hiring illegals because they feed the coffers of the Right, and because the left sees illegals as another future voting block.  The political will isn't there, so business has NO incentive to find another avenue.  And with so many Americans content to sit on thier fat asses and collect Welfare, live in Government housing, and do nothing, why would they actually go out and work for a living?

You cannot have a successful prosperous nation with open borders AND a welfare state.   

I'd go so far as to suggest you can't have a successful prosperous nation with a welfare state. Adding open borders merely speeds its demise.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2010, 03:01:12 PM »
I'd go so far as to suggest you can't have a successful prosperous nation with a welfare state. Adding open borders merely speeds its demise.

Not a point I'd argue against, but I wasn't going to fire up the welfare debate.

A welfare state is certain to die with open borders, as there is nothing stopping the new immigrants from feeding at the public trough.
They already are:

Defacto free health care in public ER's
Anchor babies get CHIP and free education
Etc.
JD

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P5 Guy

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2010, 01:00:27 PM »
Welfare makes coming into the USA all too attractive.
The value of money is relative. When our Uncle Sam set a poverty level wage, the minimum wage, they didn't really accomplish a thing. It is all cake and circuses. Unions don't have the power to push wages higher. There is far more pressure, downward, from undocumented labor. The threat of being deported keeps the undocumented very compliant to accept lower wages and dangerous and inferior working conditions.

"Unions & Progressives have driven the cost of living in America up"

I'm not seeing it. More things to buy has driven the standard of living higher, at increased cost. Six generations ago, even four generations ago there was not, I don't know where to start, TV, computers, radio, home theater systems, two cars in every driveway, and on and on. All the, what once were luxury items only the "Robber Barons" could afford are now in the homes of welfare recipients.
I'm 55 years old and work in manufacturing. I'm real happy I do not have to work for Henry Ford on his production line from 1920 even if Ford did pay the highest daily wages. Tenant Farming was barely making a living by anyones standards, Knitting Mills, Coal Mines, and Steel Mills were very dangerous places of employment. No one would want to go back to work in those conditions, for those wages.
The cost of doing  business went up with the standard of living and it has a cost, so if the unions and the progressives are to blame. Ask your Great Grandma if she wants to give up her Kirby.
After all Bill Gates wants us all to buy his new and improved version of Windows.

It would be utopia to have the Free Market we read about, just like the Workers Paradise would be a utopian vision for the laborers. It isn't going to be that way and finding a balance between Labor and Management without all those guest workers disrupting the balance is the goal we should be hunting. Of course Uncle Sam wants to have his input depending on who is wearing the Uncle Sam costume.
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Balog

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2010, 01:27:16 PM »
Yeah, Lord knows if the mighty unions weren't fighting the good fight we'll see 12 y/o slave labour in the coal mines.  ;/
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Jamisjockey

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2010, 01:43:12 PM »
P5 guy:

Your defense of Unions is a full disconnect from reality.

I've been a Union employee and seen first hand the greed that is part and parcel to the Union way of life. 

Riddle me this: Why is the average GM union employee paid $73 an hour in wages and benefits?  While one can argue that auto workers are skilled employees, it also isn't rocket science and you can easily train replacements into the industry.

No, year after year Unions have demanded wages be increased above the standard of living, and above what other workers make. Industry is held hostage by thier tactics. In many states, union protectionisim is built into the laws.
Follow that with Progressives who think that being "poor" should come with a minimum standard of living: hence the minimum wage. 

Both are forces that push the cost of labor and goods up.  But if you're not a Union employee, your wages don't go up to match. 

The recent housing bubble has proven that the Standard of living you call "good" is falsely inflated by a combination of Progessive financial policies and Labor Unions.   
JD

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P5 Guy

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2010, 11:55:23 AM »
Well sir I too worked in a Union shop and the only two Lincoln Continentals in the parking lot were the ones the boss owned and the other was the one the union rep drove courtesy of my dues. No one in that shop was getting rich working for wages. But hey it wasn't the UAW. And every discussion about unions pull them out from all the others.
So the UAW has a benefits and wage package worth $73 per hour. Can you name any others? And please leave out the Entertainers. I'd figure that the Government workers are running neck and neck with the UAW.
And realistically speaking how many others that labor for wages work in a union environment? Blaming this on Union Labor is  the disconnect in my opinion.
So now the shop I, basically grew up in had it's union decertified and is now closed. That shop is where I learned my trade and I'm still applying that knowledge, albeit in another shop. The Corporation I work for now has the first third of their Employ Handbook devoted to how bad it would be if some one were to get the Union bug. Our wages are on a par with the other shops in the area, according to the Handbook. The boss doesn't want to get into a bidding war for workers. If my wage goes up $50 a pay I'm sure my co-pay for health insurance will go up at least that much.

Well now to housing. I OWN my house and the land it sits on. Our Uncle Sam is the one I hold responsible for the ridiculous run up in housing. Fannie and Freddie, and the insane idea that the American dream is deserved by all. Do you need that 2500 sq. ft. house? Mines barely 800. The unions, unless you are blaming the government workers at the above mentioned government offices as the problem had nothing to do with that. All the housing I saw being built here was done by guest workers. Yes a couple of Anglos and the rest were of Hispanic decent. I'm sure the carpenters and electrician unions were well represented.

Yeah I like my standard of living and I do not want to live like the guest workers do back in the old county. Obviously neither do they. Just wait 'til they decide to organize. Sounds like that '30s radio preacher complaining about the Commies from Europe doesn't it?

Let us see if we can disconnect the Boss and Uncle Sam. I have no idea how to achieve this at the present time but blaming us, the workers, for the greed of the CEOs is not productive.



 

roo_ster

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2010, 10:46:15 AM »
Here's some commentary on JAWD.

Pretty much makes the point I make periodically: in the absence of illegal alien labor, there will be fewer farm jobs at higher pay and greater capital investment.



http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjJiZDc0ZTYzYTNmNDA3MGYzYmMwMzA0MzYwNjVkMDk=


Take My Job — Please!   [Mark Krikorian]

I just flew in from Cleveland, and boy, are my arms tired!

But seriously, folks. The United Farm Workers has launched a tongue-in-cheek lobbying campaign (to be highlighted tomorrow on Colbert's show) called "Take Our Jobs." In the words of the AP story, the effort encourages "the unemployed — and any Washington pundits who want to join them — to apply for [some of the] thousands of agricultural jobs being posted with state agencies as harvest season begins"; there's an online form under the heading "I want to be a farm worker." The message is that America can't function without an endless supply of peasant labor from abroad, the goal being to make the case for the AgJobs bill, which would amnesty illegal-alien farm workers and set up an open-ended indentured-labor program to import more. (This is one of the two main piecemeal amnesties that are apparently now on the agenda of the Democrats and their fellow-travelers on the right.)

Clever, and props to the marketing firm that came up with it. But since the effort was initiated by a labor union, it is, inevitably, economically illiterate. The fact is that no one wants to be a farm worker, not even farm workers, precisely because we have so many foreign farm workers. In other words, the low pay and appalling working conditions in farm labor are a direct result of excessive illegal immigration and agricultural guest-worker programs, which keep the labor market looser than it would otherwise be and reduce incentives for change. With fewer field hands available, farmers would do two things: First, raise wages and improve working conditions (because given the right circumstances, there are a non-trivial number of Americans and legal immigrants willing to do farm work). Second, they'd accelerate efforts at finding ways of getting by with less labor; i.e., mechanize.

Contrary to the assumption behind this amnesty effort, reducing the amount of foreign farm labor through better enforcement and ending guest-worker programs would not mean all those jobs would have to be filled by Andy Anglo and Wendy Whitebread. Rather, the foreign farm workers would be replaced by the likes of this:

lettuce harvester


and this:

mini-harvester



(These are from Ramsey Highlander; there are other manufacturers as well.)

Sure, they still require labor, but the workers would be fewer, and more productive, and thus better paid, turning what is now a primitive, atavistic work environment featuring exploitation and injury into something a little more civilized. No one dreams of a career collecting trash, either, but with high pay and automatic can-dumpers, there are plenty of (native-born) takers.

http://www.cis.org/krikorian/JAWD
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roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2010, 10:47:37 AM »
I'd be curious if the quality was the same for the Mexican labor.

What is the break down of industries that hire illegals?  Are farm workers and migrant workers the majority or a smaller percentage? 

IIRC, in no sector is illegal alien labor the majority.  It tops out around 25% in the most obvious sectors (migrant ag labor or some such).

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roo_ster

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KD5NRH

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2010, 02:31:25 AM »
lettuce harvester


and this:

mini-harvester



(These are from Ramsey Highlander; there are other manufacturers as well.)

Sure, they still require labor, but the workers would be fewer, and more productive,

I see lots and lots of delicate parts just waiting to break, which also means nice, productive jobs for lots of skilled technicians like Andy Anglo.  Even good freelance opportunities for Wendy Whitebread if the manufacturers aren't overprotective of the repair parts.  Just another overall benefit to getting rid of the illegals.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2010, 07:26:05 AM »
I see lots and lots of delicate parts just waiting to break


me too plus another 250 k machine to buy     farmers are gonna love it   and how many weeks a year will it get used?
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Regolith

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2010, 09:46:53 AM »
I see lots and lots of delicate parts just waiting to break


me too plus another 250 k machine to buy     farmers are gonna love it   and how many weeks a year will it get used?

If it works well, likely they'll do what they did back in the old days when mechanical tractors were new: pool their money, buy one, and share it.  Hell, small farmers are still doing that with the really big combines, which don't get used any more often than these will.  
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 09:50:47 AM by Regolith »
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KD5NRH

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2010, 10:38:13 AM »
If it works well, likely they'll do what they did back in the old days when mechanical tractors were new: pool their money, buy one, and share it.  Hell, small farmers are still doing that with the really big combines, which don't get used any more often than these will.

Or they'll do what farmers did before mechanical tractors; have big American families with lots of kids who aren't afraid of work.


BReilley

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2010, 11:18:07 PM »
me too plus another 250 k machine to buy     farmers are gonna love it   and how many weeks a year will it get used?

I'll bet a productive, durable(in the economic sense) $250,000 machine, built by a California company - which probably doesn't send 50% of its profits to Mexico - is a more worthwhile investment than a $250,000 fine for hiring illegals.

Plus, the machine doesn't come with jail time or revoke your business license.

I will echo some others in this thread: this is a result of government messing with the market.  Make it prohibitively expensive to hire Americans, create obtuse tax and regulation structures which can be gotten around anyway, etc - basically incentivize the hiring of illegals.  But then that seems to fit with the whole wink-wink-nod-nod approach our federal government takes toward immigration these days.

Firethorn

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Re: take our jobs . org
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2010, 03:38:57 PM »
me too plus another 250 k machine to buy     farmers are gonna love it   and how many weeks a year will it get used?

Hmm....  Lettuce can survive minor freezing, ready for harvesting in 70-80 days after seeding, 'ideal' temperatures are in the 60's. 

In California, with a sufficiently sized farm and rotating fields, you should be able to use it like 30 weeks out of the year, easy.