Author Topic: West Point Grad Erik Scott shot in what appears to be police snafu ( Vegas )  (Read 27243 times)

gunsmith

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http://www.lvrj.com/multimedia/Father-of-Costco-Shooting-Victim-Speaks-to-Review-Journal--98557964.html

I just heard about this seems to be one of those cases where the cops were shouting different orders ( hands up/get down/give us the gun)

from open carry forum

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According to a first hand eye witness story, Scott was executed by the cops from the sounds of it.

(Please do not quote entire articles - OV)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 07:01:56 PM by Oleg Volk »
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gunsmith

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Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

AmbulanceDriver

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Hooo boy....   I have a feeling this thing is gonna get *REALLY* interesting...  My condolences to the family of this young man....  If it turns out this young man was following the officers commands, I have a feeling that the cops are gonna be in a lot of hot water. 
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230RN

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Kinda personal, because I've often tried to think of  what to do if they hollered at me to get down on the ground or on my knees.  Can't do it without using my hands in the first place, and can't kneel in the second place.

A very interesting story from the witnesses.
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taurusowner

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Kinda personal, because I've often tried to think of  what to do if they hollered at me to get down on the ground or on my knees.  Can't do it without using my hands in the first place, and can't kneel in the second place.

A very interesting story from the witnesses.

That's why all academies I know of (at least all in Michigan) teach a very specific sequence of orders to officers for ordering someone down, including which knee to get down on first, and which hand to use when going to the stomach.  Of course, everyone involved could end up seriously SOL if the officer forgets his training.

Jamie B

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I have been watching this on several boards for about a week.

Any video from Costco has not yet surfaced.

Seems that LVMPD has about 17 officer involved shootings a year, and all have been justified.

I am very curious about additional details on this.

Jamie
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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If it turns out this young man was following the officers commands, I have a feeling that the cops are gonna be in a lot of hot water.  .

NO.  If the cops are in the wrong, hot water is the best that they can hope for (and probably all that will happen).  If the cops were in the wrong, murder charges should be filed and no one should give them any special treatment at all.  Treat the the same as you would any other murder suspect (wont happen).
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RoadKingLarry

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LVPD cops have nothing to worry about. There has NEVER been an "bad shoot" by LVPD.

They were even able to justify the officer that emptied his weapon into the back of my unarmed, dressed only in shorts and carrying a basketball cousin. (actually IIRC he was only hit 9 out of 17 rounds)
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zxcvbob

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I've been following this for about a week too.  The cops involved should hope they get a day in court, after all they might be vindicated.  Because if this get whitewashed (and it's already looking that way) I think Daddy is gonna hunt them down.  
[popcorn]

« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 01:34:19 AM by zxcvbob »
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myrockfight

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NO.  If the cops are in the wrong, hot water is the best that they can hope for (and probably all that will happen).  If the cops were in the wrong, murder charges should be filed and no one should give them any special treatment at all.  Treat the the same as you would any other murder suspect (wont happen).

If this turns out to be a bad shoot, I pray they prosecute the shooter appropriately. This whole, "The law is for thee, not for me," bull is simply adding more fuel to a combustible situation  which will ignite eventually to correct itself. It speaks to the same problems we are having in the (less than) free market concerning companies that need to fail in order for a healthy market to make small self-corrections. At best, all they are doing (by preventing the initial failure) is setting up a situation in which the entities involved fail anyway. More likely though, is that you are only delaying the inevitable and complicating the process by increasing thr scope and breadth of said failure.

I liken it to the, "Well. If I'm going to fail, I'm taking the whole GD fishing fleet with me!" This problem is advanced by perpetuating the myth that we are each a man unto ourselves; as individuals "I's got to getz mine!"; I am more important as an individual; my wants, desires, and feelings are more important than anyone or everyone else's, etc., ad nauseum.

As long as this mentality retains it's grip on us as a culture, we are doomed to fail. It is simply a result of the function which we are currently inputting an ever-increasing amount of "people who operate without thinking of the consequences beyond themselves", or more likely, their own feelings.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 08:09:06 AM by myrockfight »

Ned Hamford

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As long as this mentality retains it's grip on us as a culture, we are doomed to fail. It is simply a result of the function which we are currently inputting an ever-increasing amount of "people who operate without thinking of the consequences beyond themselves", or more likely, their own feelings.

Not too long ago in a thread dealing with cooperating with police officers [with cautious optimism/good faith] a video linked in a response put forth the argument of how absurd it would be to risk imprisonment by saying anything to police for some intangible social good.

Its the tragedy of the commons.  By only examining the individual gain/costs the actual costs are sent along to others for a net loss to society and eventual loss of future benefits to the individual and everyone.  In this case, sure shooting at the slightest hint of perceived danger removes a possible threat faster, but that benefit from not confirming targets, gives the long term costs of greatly decreased faith in LEOs, leading to... bad things.

I'd really like to avoid ever having to live in a failed state. 
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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bold added by me



http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-did-not-pull-gun-on-police-at-costco--lawyer-says-98279344.html


Police have said that Scott drew a pistol and pointed it at officers after they ordered him to raise his hands and lie on the ground. Both witnesses gave their accounts to homicide investigators, they said.

The 72-year-old man heard police say, "Get on the ground. Get on the ground." He saw Scott facing the officers, who were between Scott and the store entrance.

The man said he saw Scott reach with his right hand and pull out what appeared to be a gun in a zippered holster. He recognized the holster, he said, because he has one like it. Officers then fired, and the man saw the gun fall out of Scott's hand. The witness did not see Scott point the gun at officers.

* * *

The second witness, who also spoke on the condition that his name not be used, was standing near the entrance when he said he heard police shout, "Get down on the ground. Get down now."

He turned to see why police were yelling, he said, and saw Scott reaching for what appeared to be a pistol in his waistband. The witness said he recognized the butt of the gun and immediately turned toward his wife and covered her as they dove to the ground.

"He was definitely reaching for the gun," the man said.

The witness turned away before he could see whether Scott fully removed the weapon from his waistband and didn't see the shooting. He said it did not appear that Scott was trying to "quick-draw" the weapon on the officers.


« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 08:16:15 AM by Henry Bowman »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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gunsmith

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a lot of witnesses contradict what the above article says, just saying.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Of course the blue wagons are being circled. If the guy pulled a weapon, so be it. The cops should protect themselves (I'll argue later about opening fire with so many innocents in the area)

So many others are coming out with eyewitness reports that are very damning. I hope a video surfaces to see what happend (if it shows that LE was wrong, it probably won't see the light of day). The fact that it hasn't already been released is telling.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

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With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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a lot of witnesses contradict what the above article says, just saying.

the other witnesses don't so much contradict as they testify that they from their viewpoint did not see a gun as opposed to being able to categorically say that he didn't have one or make a move towards it.   one sad thing is the role that costco's "no guns " policy played in this. a more realistic policy woulda made this not a incident at all.  of course so would "concealed means concealed"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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T.O.M.

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Anyone familiar with the gun laws in Nevada?  Could he have had a CCW permit, and thus legally armed?

As to witnesses, after spending 16 years in the criminal court system, I am still amazed that several people can witness the same exact incident, and yet have widely varying versions of the facts when asked simply "what did you see?"
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Regolith

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Anyone familiar with the gun laws in Nevada?  Could he have had a CCW permit, and thus legally armed?

As to witnesses, after spending 16 years in the criminal court system, I am still amazed that several people can witness the same exact incident, and yet have widely varying versions of the facts when asked simply "what did you see?"

Nevada is a shall-issue state, so it is very possible that he could have had one.  Generally, Nevada is pretty gun friendly, except for Clark County (where Vegas is located) which requires registration of handguns. 
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BReilley

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Its the tragedy of the commons.  By only examining the individual gain/costs the actual costs are sent along to others for a net loss to society and eventual loss of future benefits to the individual and everyone.  In this case, sure shooting at the slightest hint of perceived danger removes a possible threat faster, but that benefit from not confirming targets, gives the long term costs of greatly decreased faith in LEOs, leading to... bad things.

The police are not responsible for the safety of the citizenry, which is fair enough.  It goes without saying that the police cannot be everywhere at once - and who would want them to be?  The problem is that citizens have been legislated out of their right to self-defense - physical or otherwise.  Each day, people see criminals go more-or-less unpunished for actual crimes, while law enforcement focuses more and more intensely on revenue generation(photo enforcement, as a local example).  Nobody can stick up for the law-abiding individual.  What else is going to happen?

one sad thing is the role that costco's "no guns " policy played in this. a more realistic policy woulda made this not a incident at all.  of course so would "concealed means concealed"

I don't quite see how Costco's policy changed anything that happened here - what do you mean?
I am a Costco member and I fume every time I leave my lawfully-carried weapon at home or in the car.

MechAg94

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This seems to me to be another reason all cops should be fitted with cameras recording audio/video.  Unedited police video could, in a case like this, remove any doubts about what happened.

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gunsmith

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downright strange that the video tapes still have yet to be released.
West Point grads are not known for trying to shoot it out with the police, I'm pretty curious.
Why not release the tape if its a good shoot?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

taurusowner

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This seems to me to be another reason all cops should be fitted with cameras recording audio/video.  Unedited police video could, in a case like this, remove any doubts about what happened.



Agreed.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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the last article i read had it as costco that was still holding the tapes  and its one of the offsite recording deals
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jamisjockey

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Costco's no gun policy isn't nation wide.  Guns allowed in VA costcos.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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i'll have to check and see if the stupid sign is gone from mine
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I