Author Topic: Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...  (Read 22140 times)

Wildalaska

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2005, 08:59:57 AM »
According to what I have read, that therapy would not have worked, and could have been dangerous

WildwellneverknowthewholestorywillweAlaska
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Wildalaska

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2005, 09:05:05 AM »
Dangerous?

WildimiisedthatoneAlaska
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seeker_two

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2005, 10:24:40 AM »
Quote from: WildAlaska
Why Pilate? Becasue they tried to help
Because they gave lip service (GW--signing a weak bill, Jeb--press conferences) to saving her life instead of taking decisive action--even if it meant risking their careers--to do what is right & save Terry's life.  Pontius Pilate could have freed Jesus, made the Sanhedrian Court stand down, or even send Jesus to Rome in protective custody. Instead, he "washed his hands" of the matter & allowed the Sanhedrian Court & the Pharasees to illegally execute (only the Romans were allowed to conduct executions...) Jesus by crucifixion...

Interestingly enough, Pilate's lack of a strong stand ensured that the Jews under his rule continued to disobey his rule & rebel until the Emperor recalled him to Rome & removed him from office.  Shamed, he eventually committed suicide.

seeker...the more things change....two   Cheesy
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Risasi

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2005, 12:10:50 PM »
Quote from: c_yeager
Quote
Seen the medical evidence. My only question is why are they so up in arms to stop people from trying to give her food or water? It's not like she can actually eat or drink it then now is it? That is, if she is PVR. And if she is truly brain dead fine. Let the herodian lifer ninnies have her. What's the harm? If she is truly dead that is?
As a general rule hospitals frown on people shoving food and water down the throat of a person who cannot swallow. Letting a person die is one thing, killing them as some sort of side-show is another. And just because she is brain dead doesnt mean that she isnt deserving of some dignity. That is what her husband has been TRYING to give her. Instead her parents have turned her into a freak show and put her on the news. Thats not how I would want to die.
Hi Chuck, ( I feel like Peppermint Patti now...)

If this is truly the case and she can't be spoon fed. And if force feeding kills her is that not voluntary manslaughter?  If they kill her force feeding her charge them with a crime then. Justice served. Of course I don't believe that. But no, people have already made up their minds. She will die. As for dying with dignity, I'm not sure what that means out of the spiritual sense. And that lies in the mind. If she is brain dead, as they say, she is already dead.

Let me share something with you. I have some friends who had a child born with Osteogenisis Imperfecta. The worst kind too no less. He doctors flat out told the parents it's better to just pull the plug. You hold him in your arms, we'll take him off life support. Then he'll go peacefully. This was true life support. When he was born his lungs were not developed, and he didn't even have the muscles to breath. Well to make a long story short the doctors get all huffy, they said "they had spoken" and they were doing their best to keep him alive. Well let me tell you something buddy. That is a very arrogant statement. The Lord Jesus Christ keeps people from going fissionable. And to take on the mind of God is rather arrogant. I hope you're not allowed the chance. If you gotta think God's thoughts you're likely to forget about me and I'll just implode. Nevermind the rest of the planet. Anyway, the doctors said he would live for mere hours, perhaps even minutes. He lived for nearly two years. Much to the chagrin of the doctors. And his parents took upon themselves to care for him. And he was doing well. But you know what happened? The doctors killed him. They didn't follow their own procedures. And they are human, and fallable. We all are. But to to so blatantly treat human life as something to be dismissed is a horrible thing. If it's worth fighting for let's do it. As Wild just pointed out earlier Mr. Schiavo says the treatments are dangerous? What? She might die? Okay, well I think I would take my chances...
Anyway, I find this issue very cut and dried. And it's pretty much over. The only thing that would be hilarious now is if she somehow snapped out of it and went on with her life. The wise are confounded with things they do not understand.

Now Preacherman,

I like your analogy. The child is a good one. And the principle can be seen. But I am trying to understand how to relate to you.

Let me tell you about myself. I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. And that He is God almighty, come in the flesh. He created the kosmos, and died on the stake. Then rose again in body and in spirit. And is now seated at the right hand of the Father, making defense for my sorry butt. And will one day come back to open up a can of whoopass, and rule for a thousand years. Before He creates a new heaven and earth.  I believe this is all it takes to be saved from the penalty due a person's sins. Which is the Lake of Fire. It's not some work you do, unless anyone should boast on their good works. Likewise all will be raised and stand before judgement. For the things they have done.


Now I say all this so you know where I am coming from. And I don't care to really discuss doctrine. At least right now. And perhaps not in public. The only thing I was to know is what you believe about this Jesus Christ, the Jew.

Or anyone else for that matter. You see this whole issue with T. Schiavo can not be sorted out easily. And certainly not by the machinations of man, certainly not by us goofy guys not directly involved in the situation...but I do evil and good can and should be judged.

If my post offends anyone. Sorry, that's just the way it goes. They are only words after all...or are they?

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2005, 01:47:15 PM »
Quote from: seeker_two
Quote from: WildAlaska
Why Pilate? Becasue they tried to help
Because they gave lip service (GW--signing a weak bill, Jeb--press conferences) to saving her life instead of taking decisive action--even if it meant risking their careers--to do what is right & save Terry's life.  Pontius Pilate could have freed Jesus, made the Sanhedrian Court stand down, or even send Jesus to Rome in protective custody. Instead, he "washed his hands" of the matter & allowed the Sanhedrian Court & the Pharasees to illegally execute (only the Romans were allowed to conduct executions...) Jesus by crucifixion...

Interestingly enough, Pilate's lack of a strong stand ensured that the Jews under his rule continued to disobey his rule & rebel until the Emperor recalled him to Rome & removed him from office.  Shamed, he eventually committed suicide.

seeker...the more things change....two   Cheesy
There is a rule of law, and a separation of powers in this country for a reason.  Besides, by not saving her, GW and his cronies have risked thier fundamental religious bases support.  Since the religious rights stand is based on emotion, its not likely something they will forget.
And how ironic, that the right wing, which supports the war in Iraq, sending over a thousand of our young people to die, yet they've got thier panties in a knot over the starving death of a woman who brought it on herself.
I'm more glad every day that I'm athiest.

doczinn

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« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2005, 03:36:57 PM »
Quote
It is the Lord who should decide when to take her from this planet on the day he chooses.
I'm a little late on this, but: what if he already did?
D. R. ZINN

Ezekiel

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« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2005, 07:28:57 AM »
Well, merely as a matter of record, if I am ever in a similar situation as this poor girl: TAKE ME OUT.  Offer me a full serving a JHP at 1100 fps, stop feeding me, or whatever -- just make it stop.

There, I'm "on record" in case some nutjobs try to remove my will from the equation!

Thanks,
Zeke

spacemanspiff

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2005, 08:37:29 AM »
Quote
Since we can't create it, I maintain that logically we don't have the right to destroy it.  Sometimes its destruction is necessary, to prevent a greater evil (e.g. shooting a rapist rather than allowing him to continue his crime spree):  but to make a deliberate, pre-meditated decision to deprive someone of life implies that we have the right to make such a decision, and in most cases, I'm just not morally comfortable with that.
preacher, i think your post above is the longest you have ever written, in my recollection.
in fact, dare i say it was almost a sermon? Cheesy

whose to say that we are qualified to make such a decision of 'preventing greater evil'? i don't think you can justify one set of circumstances because 'it saves lives' and condemn another set of circumstances simply because they want to 'end suffering'.

i think that if we are able to make the decision to end someones life because they are a threat to others, then the decision to pull the plug on life support shouldnt even be an issue.

either society is okay with all types of killings, or none at all. at least thats how i think it should be.
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Sean Smith

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2005, 09:00:44 AM »
Equating unplugging her with punishing criminals by execution is a false analogy.

Because the courts aren't ruling that she deserves to die because she is brain damaged.  In fact, they aren't ruling on what she deserves at all.  

They are ruling on what SHE wanted done to her under circumstances like these, based on the evidence they have available.  Their determination is that SHE had expressed that SHE did not want to live under conditions like those she is now in.  That determination may or may not be correct.  But the rulings have been that SHE would want to die, therefore she has to be unplugged, not that she deserves to die because she is brain damaged.

The analogy with the child is a false one, as well, because unlike a child, Schiavo was an adult who allegedly made a determination to not be sustained under these circumstances.  Children aren't allowed to do that, because they aren't mature enough to be trusted with life-or-death judgements, about themselves or anyone else.

This case is actually very simple.  It rests on two points:

a)  Did Ms. Schiavo state that she would not want to be kept alive under X set of conditions?
b)  Does her current condition match X?

The law is that if both a) and b) are true, she gets unplugged.  The courts ruled (and the appeals affirmed) that a) and b) were proven to the required standard of evidence, therefore she got unplugged.  They may or may not be correct in that judgement, but that is the real question here.

Wildalaska

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« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2005, 09:34:18 AM »
I like Jeb Bushes line..paraphrsed

I did somehting and the left villified me, I couldbnt do anyhting more so the right villfied me, guess I did the correct thing is both sides think im wrong

WildscornedAlaska
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telewinz

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« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2005, 02:28:25 PM »
I grow weary of the whole Terry Schiavo "show".  We routinely place a value on human life and more often than not its dirt cheap.  Since I wasn't there I don't know what Terry would want but if she wants to die due to her current state (15 years!) that is the same wish I have expressed to my kin.  Why not spend that dollar a day to save a starving child instead?  Why not become a Big Brother to that teenager who in 8 years may face the death penalty for becoming involved with drugs?  Why not adopt that neglected, handicapped child thats been in an institution for years?  Why not visit your aunt, uncle, father, mother,  or grand parents that are alone in a nursing home?  True none of the above have the spotlight focused on them by the news media and you won't be the center of attention of a large vocal audience but you WILL make a tangible difference in the life of a functioning human being.  Maybe thats not as exciting as "lights, camera, action"!
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Jason

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #86 on: March 29, 2005, 06:20:49 AM »
Yet another email from "Taurus"
Quote
From: "Watch-Dog"  Add to Address Book
To: "Jason D"
Subject: Family of Rats!
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:33:30 -0500

   
Dear Rat,
 
"Do not ever email me off the board again."
 
I'll email you any ****ing time I want!!! Too bad you're blocked on my end, however.


What's the matter? You couldn't handle matters on your own? You're a rat! You can kiss my ass.
Nice....I guess this guy can't handle adult debate.  I guess he's probably off trying to take Teri water or blow up abortion clinics....
Nevermind, I see he got banned from this forum.  good ridance.

Sean Smith

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2005, 06:37:35 AM »
Quote from: Atc1man
Yet another email from "Taurus"
Quote
From: "Watch-Dog"  Add to Address Book
To: "Jason D"
Subject: Family of Rats!
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:33:30 -0500

   
Dear Rat,
 
"Do not ever email me off the board again."
 
I'll email you any ****ing time I want!!! Too bad you're blocked on my end, however.


What's the matter? You couldn't handle matters on your own? You're a rat! You can kiss my ass.
Nice....I guess this guy can't handle adult debate.  I guess he's probably off trying to take Teri water or blow up abortion clinics....
Nevermind, I see he got banned from this forum.  good ridance.
I'm downright disappointed that the "tough guy" never saw fit to pester ME with e-mails, and you've gotten TWO!  Tongue

mfree

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2005, 07:45:05 AM »
I never quite saw the point in antagonizing people you *know* are armed...

Anyways, I stopped listening to the whole thing days ago, but this junk keeps bleeding through to my ears. HOWEVER, I am glad to see that Mr. Schiavo decided to make absolute fools out of some of the people deriding him by agreeing to the autopsy and pulling the carpet out of one of their biggest lying..er, talking points.

I would, however, like to spend some time alone in the middle of nowhere with whatshisname, Randall Tony or summat, the rights activist. One of us would return...

Michigander

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2005, 05:06:53 PM »
Family members, primarily spouses perhaps, have been making such life and death decisions for kin for many years now; in many cases along with their family doctor who may have even assisted in providing the means for a "dignified" death, I'd 'spect.
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seeker_two

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2005, 05:36:33 PM »
Quote from: mfree
I would, however, like to spend some time alone in the middle of nowhere with whatshisname, Randall Tony or summat, the rights activist. One of us would return...
Yep....but we'd all miss you, mfree....  Tongue


And the name's Randall Terry....

...and he knows the value of innocent life & human liberty.


Quote from: Barry Goldwater
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice&. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Moondoggie

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« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2005, 06:22:17 AM »
Been out of town for a few days, coming late to the discussion...The Box just reported that Terry died.

I'm happy to see that this thread has clambered back up to the high ground.....I support the decision to ban Taurus, FWIW.  Seems to have solved the problem.

My wife & I were discussing this during our road trip....I came up with an idea to help prevent similar cases where the question of what the person's wishes were is the central issue.

Here's the idea;  Enact federal legislation that would ask standardized questions about these types of medical issues when you get a driver's license.  Reciprocity among all states would be included, since you never know where you might be when the unthinkable happens.    Record your elections on the back of the DL, notorized by DMV personnel.  We already do this for organ donation in many states.  Participation is voluntary, and any election can be changed at any time simply by going to the DMV and completing a new questionaire free of charge.  No, it won't totally prevent these situations, but it would ameliorate many of  the "He said/she said" conflicts with an undeniable paper trail.  It would be better than what we have now.  I expect those in the legal profession would object since this would get into their rice bowl.  At a minimum, it might serve to prompt younger folks to consider this subject since we all know that we thought we were immortal in our younger days.

Just my .02!
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tyme

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« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2005, 07:29:47 AM »
Whether she was technically alive or conscious, her communication of late was more cogent than anything spouted by the mass media.

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ojibweindian

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« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2005, 08:51:30 AM »
Starvation, according to the death cultists, is supposed to be a painless way to die; the victim is supposed to experience a feeling of euphoria prior to death.  Interesting, and to think I've been feeling guilty about, and sending money, etc, to all those starving people in Africa.  Now I don't have to worry about it.  Let them starve, it's painless.

Sean Smith

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #94 on: March 31, 2005, 09:33:48 AM »
Quote from: ojibweindian
blah blah death cultists blah blah
So what?

The courts determined, and the pile o' appeals upheld, that SHE STATED that she wanted to be unplugged.  Her best friend was one of the people testifying to this effect.  If so, the unpleasantness of starvation is consistent with HER expressed wishes.  If not... well, all the arguments to the contrary have consisted almost entirely of distortions, false analogies and outright lies.  Oh, and name-calling hysterics, let's not leave that out.  Wink

Ironies so far:

Conservatives are now the ones calling everyone who disagrees with them Nazis, instead of liberals.
Conservatives are the ones flushing states' rights down the commode in the name of their pet issue du jour, instead of liberals.

Did I miss any?  Tongue

ojibweindian

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2005, 10:13:18 AM »
Whatever

Those guys in Africa are still gonna starve.  They'll be better off for it, too.  Isn't that what you death cultists say?  Starvation is a peacefull death.

spacemanspiff

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2005, 10:20:18 AM »
sooooooo, who are we elite death cultists going to off next?

:rollseyes:
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ojibweindian

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« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2005, 10:21:24 AM »
beats me, there's a lot to choose from.  You have anyone in mind?

spacemanspiff

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2005, 10:44:50 AM »
well allegedly the popes living will says he wants to be on life support, but its gotta be wrong. i mean, why would his holiness NOT want to go meet his maker? i mean, hes da freakin pope! if he goes on life support, its only going to raise doubt in the minds of parishoners about his faith in how his soul is to be judged.

i mean, that would tear rifts in the church far wider than any so-called secrets the knights templar has been holding on to.

Cheesy
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Sean Smith

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Preacherman, T. Schiavo and The SOUL...
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2005, 10:47:13 AM »
Quote from: ojibweindian
Isn't that what you death cultists say?
What is with the playground insults around here?  You might as well just say, "neener-neener, you are all poopie-heads!"