Author Topic: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"  (Read 13969 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2010, 03:52:16 PM »
the amount of crap that banks/lenders pull off daily is amazing.  and they get away with it because their victims are often unaware  or don't have the resources to fight em

this time they got caught    trying to shift the blame is another of their tactics and i'm surprised so many buy it
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2010, 03:57:01 PM »
the cra didn't make em do this

As recently as July 27, Countrywide’s product list showed that it would lend $500,000 to a borrower rated C-minus, the second-riskiest grade. As long as the loan represented no more than 70 percent of the underlying property’s value, Countrywide would lend to a borrower even if the person had a credit score as low as 500. (The top score is 850.)

The company would lend even if the borrower had been 90 days late on a current mortgage payment twice in the last 12 months, if the borrower had filed for personal bankruptcy protection, or if the borrower had faced foreclosure or default notices on his or her property.


heres why they did it

Such loans were made, former employees say, because they were so lucrative — to Countrywide. The company harvested a steady stream of fees or payments on such loans and busily repackaged them as securities to sell to investors. As long as housing prices kept rising, everyone — borrowers, lenders and investors — appeared to be winners.

One former employee provided documents indicating Countrywide’s minimum profit margins on subprime loans of different sizes. These ranged from 5 percent on small loans of $100,000 to $200,000 to 3 percent on loans of $350,000 to $500,000. But on subprime loans that imposed heavy burdens on borrowers, like high prepayment penalties that persisted for three years, Countrywide’s margins could reach 15 percent of the loan, the former employee said.

Regulatory filings show how much more profitable subprime loans are for Countrywide than higher-quality prime loans. Last year, for example, the profit margins Countrywide generated on subprime loans that it sold to investors were 1.84 percent, versus 1.07 percent on prime loans. A year earlier, when the subprime machine was really cranking, sales of these mortgages produced profits of 2 percent, versus 0.82 percent from prime mortgages. And in 2004, subprime loans produced gains of 3.64 percent, versus 0.93 percent for prime loans.

One reason these loans were so lucrative for Countrywide is that investors who bought securities backed by the mortgages were willing to pay more for loans with prepayment penalties and those whose interest rates were going to reset at higher levels. Investors ponied up because pools of subprime loans were likely to generate a larger cash flow than prime loans that carried lower fixed rates.

As a result, former employees said, the company’s commission structure rewarded sales representatives for making risky, high-cost loans. For example, according to another mortgage sales representative affiliated with Countrywide, adding a three-year prepayment penalty to a loan would generate an extra 1 percent of the loan’s value in a commission. While mortgage brokers’ commissions would vary on loans that reset after a short period with a low teaser rate, the higher the rate at reset, the greater the commission earned, these people said.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2010, 07:37:06 AM »
Yeah, I'm still having a hard time seeing how millions in profits to be made by ripping off investors was less the cause of this than some sort of "culture" of lending to poor folks under Government supervision.

If there is one culprit to be named, it is the finance industry - wall street came up with these garbage financial products that no one understands, had them rated AAA, and sold them to an investor community that apparently didn't know or didn't care.  Epic wall street fail, in other words.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2010, 10:14:53 AM »
Wall Street didn't write the rules of the game, they just played by them.

The old way to make money in lending was to issue loans to people who'd pay them back with interest.  Obviously this only works when the borrower repays, so banks tended to put some effort into determining who'd repay and who wouldn't.

Enter government.  The cabal of social justice do-gooders decided that it was racist not to lend to poor people who wouldn't repay the loans, and they set about attacking banks politically for the practice of only lending to people wealthy enough to justify the loan.  The CRA was the big stick threat in this, both for what it actually said and for what it portended in further punitive legislation, but there was plenty more to it.  Janet Reno, Chuck Schumer, Jesse Jackson, Dodd and Frank were all happy to threaten and attack lenders who didn't play ball according to the new standards.

So, the banks played ball.  They started issuing loans to people who couldn't afford them, especially to minorities.  They started pushing unconventional loan types like ARMs, interest-only, 100% LTV, etc. to people who couldn't qualify for the usual 10% or 20% down fixed rate loans.  They sometimes did this specifically under the auspices of the CRA, but they did it for plenty of other political reasons, too, such as keeping the Justice Department from attacking them or the race-baiters from picketing and boycotting them.  

The lenders knew there was no way to make money off the interest payments from these loans, they were too likely to default, so they did their best to make their profits on the transaction instead.  (That's what CS&D's Countrywide post describes in detail.)  But banks still had a problem with all of these garbage loans on their books, and were still somewhat reluctant to engage in the practice.

Enter government again.  Freddie and Fannie and Franklin Raines and Dodd and Frank and AIG stood ready to make sure that banks could guarantee their bad loans against default, allowing them to package the loans into "safe" MBS's and sell them on the secondary market.  This provided yet another opportunity to profit off of the transaction rather than the intrinsic value of the loans, further encouraging the practice of issuing mortgages for volume rather than for creditworthiness.  

And perhaps cleverest of all, banks figured out that under the new rules of the game they could repurchase their own crummy loans back off of the secondary market and collect that interest risk-free because of the loan guarantees.  The guarantors were the ones who would suffer in case of default, not the banks.

So of course they did it.  Nobody with a brain would have expected anything else.  It was as close to a money machine as anything I've ever seen, with the only real risk applying to the fools guaranteeing the loans.  And because of the implicit FedGov backing for Freddie and Fannie, it was ultimately the US taxpayer who guaranteed those bad loans.  Dodd and Frank and Pelosi were pocketing campaign contributions from Freddie and Fannie all along the way, defending the process in Congress at every step.

So, who's fault was all this?  You can blame the banks if you want, but the ultimate culprits were the politicians who re-wrote the rules to the game.  They not only made this mode of mortgage lending possible, they also made sure there was no real alternative for the big banks.  The CRA and wider affordable housing efforts provided both the carrot and the stick to get the mortgage industry transform itself from a lend-for-quality and profit-on-interest mode of operation into the current lend-for-volume and profit-on-transaction-fees mode of operation.

I doubt the affordable housing proponents meant for this to happen, but unintended consequences are like that.  I also doubt any of them would support efforts to return the rules to their old format where banks held their loans because they represented a quality investment.  
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 11:57:09 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

De Selby

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2010, 10:22:34 AM »
Those are all assertions - do you actually have anything that statistically relates CRA loans to defaults?  Like a data source?

Maybe you don't buy the one I posted - but all I'm seeing is your assertion that banks did this for image reasons, and then tried to make money as an afterthought, which I don't find particularly compelling (you'd imagine in most dealings making money was the first idea they came up with.)

So, is there a report, study, or evidence of any kind that actually provides numbers to relate the CRA loans to defaults, and CRA loans in particular to securitisation?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2010, 10:46:16 AM »
I'm not sure why you're so hung up on academic studies.  This is a matter of history, of a long string of current events playing out in real time.  I know this is what happened because I was paying attention and I saw it as it happened.

Were you paying attention all this time?  If you were, you surely would have seen the very same things.

If you really want to learn about all this, dispense with the liars-can-figure statistical studies and go back through the historical record.

Try a quick google search for "Janet Reno redlining" or "Jesse Jackson redlining".  See if the CRA ties in with any of it.

Dig through the news articles related to the CRA from the 90's and 2000's.  
Did LibDems ever threaten to shut down banks that didn't play ball with them?  Did they ever succeed at killing any banks (ChuckSchumercoughcough)?

Did the Bush admin ever sound an alarm on the Freddie/Fannie mess and propose a major overhaul to fix it (perhaps back in 2003, hmm)?

Put some effort into learning about CDO's and RMBS's and about the secondary credit markets (sometimes called the "shadow banking system") and about the business of banking in general.  This stuff isn't particularly secretive, it's just that most people never bother to learn unless it's part of their occupation.

Roo mentioned a specific prediction of these problems from a decade ago.  It didn't take me long to find what he was referring to.  Why don't you look into it?

Take a gander into Freddie and Fannie's lobbying activities and campaign contributions.  Maybe look for actions from powerful Congress members that could be thought of as repaying or rewarding those contributions.

I can't cite a single study or report that will magically educate you on this stuff, but you could learn it on your own if you've got the motivation.  Fair warning though, keeping an open mind on this stuff may force you to rework your particular world view.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 12:02:54 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

TommyGunn

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2010, 11:49:11 AM »
Those are all assertions - do you actually have anything that statistically relates CRA loans to defaults?  Like a data source?

Maybe you don't buy the one I posted - but all I'm seeing is your assertion that banks did this for image reasons, and then tried to make money as an afterthought, which I don't find particularly compelling (you'd imagine in most dealings making money was the first idea they came up with.)

So, is there a report, study, or evidence of any kind that actually provides numbers to relate the CRA loans to defaults, and CRA loans in particular to securitisation?


Actually the banks did this all because they wanted to lose millions of dollars ......  [tinfoil] [tinfoil] :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: [barf] [barf] [popcorn] [popcorn]


Great Caesar's Ghost.  The banking profession goes back hundreds of years. I think they have had plenty of time to work out what principles work and to know what does not work in their profession.  Do you truly believe they deliberatly designed these loans to fail?  
Is there nothing politicians have done for which you would hold THEM responsible?  Do YOU really think politicians can tweak the economic system and twist arms and there be no consequences at all?  Do you blindly assume that since their motives might be "benign" that they're also smart enough to enact legislation that will actually benefit anyone? ? ?  
Headless Thompson Gunner (a nomdeplum after my own heart :angel:) has well explained what happened.  
You want some academic study?  Why don't you write one.  
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 11:53:39 AM by TommyGunn »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2010, 03:09:51 PM »
Actually the banks did this all because they wanted to lose millions of dollars ..

the banks never lose  they made billions  look at just countrywide  and what the one man made , in a non cra bank
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2010, 03:15:56 PM »
I'm not sure why you're so hung up on academic studies.  This is a matter of history, of a long string of current events playing out in real time.  I know this is what happened because I was paying attention and I saw it as it happened.

Pretty much.

One thing I have learned during this thread is that most folks forget most political machinations over time or they never paid much attention to them the first time 'round.  Nothing personal, but I remember all the "redlining" accusations by the Usual Suspects and the defense of then-contemporary business practices by bankers and other more free-market-oriented folk.  The key bit of data being that the old way of doing things resulted in near-identical default rates across races.  If NAMs had been held to higher standards, there would have been relatively fewer NAM defaults.

Didn't matter, the social engineers used the club of gov't power to get their desired results. 

The resulting bubble is the result of the gov't monkeying.  It was not a surprise and it was not unforeseeable.
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roo_ster

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TommyGunn

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2010, 03:17:30 PM »

Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy
the banks never lose  they made billions  look at just countrywide  and what the one man made , in a non cra bank

I was being sarcastic, cassandra and sara's daddy. :angel:


Anyway .... there have been plenty of bank failures in the past couple of years ... so I guess someone's not letting them in on the secret.... [tinfoil]
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Harrison Bergeron

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2010, 03:56:48 PM »
JPMorgan & Chase had a cute name, the "Burger King Kids," for the workers with little no experience or qualifications it hired to process the reams of mortgages it plowed through at the height of the housing bubble.

More at the consumerist link, below:
http://consumerist.com/2010/10/banks-hired-burger-king-kids-to-process-mortgages.html


cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2010, 10:12:16 PM »
I'm not sure why you're so hung up on academic studies.  This is a matter of history, of a long string of current events playing out in real time.  I know this is what happened because I was paying attention and I saw it as it happened...

I can't cite a single study or report that will magically educate you on this stuff, but you could learn it on your own if you've got the motivation.  Fair warning though, keeping an open mind on this stuff may force you to rework your particular world view.

All that assertion, and still not a single study that relates CRA loans to defaults and the housing crisis.  I don't need a magic article, I just need one (and haven't found one in googling your key words) that gives an actual number on CRA to subprime defaults.

It seems reasonable, when a claim is being made about how lots of CRA loans caused the housing bubble, to ask for numbers.  They certainly exist to show that the CRA was not the cause of the crisis; if it's so obvious, why aren't there any studies that crunch the numbers for the opposite outcome?
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TommyGunn

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2010, 11:31:19 PM »
Are there any "studies" that show the only source of "facts" is in "studies??" [tinfoil] [tinfoil] [popcorn] [popcorn]
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Ben

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2010, 06:55:39 PM »
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

vaskidmark

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2010, 07:29:29 PM »
And now the problems come home to roost - homeowners who keep track of things are going to be able to own their home without having to pay for it.

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2010/10/just-what-does-mortgage-mess-mean.html

The basic message is that if you don't know who, legally, you are supposed to pay you don't have to pay anybody.

And banks are seeing their ability to keep track of who owns the note is getting closer to impossible.

A whole lot of stuff to consider, and more than I can figure out overnight.  But since I am renting it is all just  :facepalm: [popcorn] [popcorn] to me.

stay safe.
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Scout26

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2010, 08:39:14 PM »
And now the problems come home to roost - homeowners who keep track of things are going to be able to own their home without having to pay for it.

http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2010/10/just-what-does-mortgage-mess-mean.html

The basic message is that if you don't know who, legally, you are supposed to pay you don't have to pay anybody.

And banks are seeing their ability to keep track of who owns the note is getting closer to impossible.

A whole lot of stuff to consider, and more than I can figure out overnight.  But since I am renting it is all just  :facepalm: [popcorn] [popcorn] to me.

stay safe.

Holy crap, that just might cause TEOFWAKI and the STHTF !!
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makattak

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2010, 09:57:05 PM »
Excuse me, I must interject:

Incentives matter.

Incentives matter.

Incentives matter.

Incentives matter.

Whew, there we go. Now you all may continue your fruitless reasoning with ShootinStudent.
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De Selby

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2010, 03:37:14 AM »
Excuse me, I must interject:

Incentives matter.

Incentives matter.

Incentives matter.

Incentives matter.

Whew, there we go. Now you all may continue your fruitless reasoning with ShootinStudent.

Yeah, the point here is that CRA is billed as a moral/.gov incentive to lend to risky subjects, whereas the hard financial incentive to lend to anyone and then pass off the bad papers to investors is discounted. 

If incentives matter, why wouldn't the billions in profits from bilking investors be counted as slightly more relevant to this mess than the CRA?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2010, 09:27:22 AM »
Yeah, the point here is that CRA is billed as a moral/.gov incentive to lend to risky subjects, whereas the hard financial incentive to lend to anyone and then pass off the bad papers to investors is discounted. 

If incentives matter, why wouldn't the billions in profits from bilking investors be counted as slightly more relevant to this mess than the CRA?

SS:

No, it is not.  It has already been mentioned up-thread that gov't-supported enterprises (F&F), made it their business to create a market and buy these turn loans, get insurance for them, and bundle them up with other loans.  Lenders could then make the turd loans, pocket origination fees, and get the turds off their books.

Without F&F to "launder" these loans, the whole sub-prime loan deal was at a stand-still.  As history showed, from the initial passing of the CRA until F&F made turd loans their mission, there was little sub-prime action.  When F&F made them 1/2 their business, then the turd loan volume went apey.

Regards,

roo_ster

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TommyGunn

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2010, 12:12:21 PM »
Yeah, the point here is that CRA is billed as a moral/.gov incentive to lend to risky subjects, whereas the hard financial incentive to lend to anyone and then pass off the bad papers to investors is discounted

If incentives matter, why wouldn't the billions in profits from bilking investors be counted as slightly more relevant to this mess than the CRA?
:facepalm:  Geeesh.  NO ONE has "discounted" the bad paper!!!  It is part of what caused this mess!!!  The government twisted the arm of bankers to make what would otherwise be bad loans, there were defaults, and the empty debt instruments were bundled and sold.  Whether you like it or not many of these banks/companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their holders to keep the firm well off.  That means they don't LIKE those bad instruments and SELL them --bundling them makes them palatable.  A few times ... doesn't hurt, but it builds up over time and in conjunction with other factors, causes a bubble that blows up.
This happened because of government intervention. Lack of intervention doesn't prove everyone outside the government is a saint and will always make wise decisions .... but face it; government does NOT help in this regard, it hurts.
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makattak

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2010, 03:28:49 PM »
SS:

No, it is not.  It has already been mentioned up-thread that gov't-supported enterprises (F&F), made it their business to create a market and buy these turn loans, get insurance for them, and bundle them up with other loans.  Lenders could then make the turd loans, pocket origination fees, and get the turds off their books.

Without F&F to "launder" these loans, the whole sub-prime loan deal was at a stand-still.  As history showed, from the initial passing of the CRA until F&F made turd loans their mission, there was little sub-prime action.  When F&F made them 1/2 their business, then the turd loan volume went apey.

And here it is.

It's not CRA alone that is responsible.

It's two massive government backed agencies providing the FULL FAITH AND CREDIT (implicitly) of the government for terrible loans.

It's the democrats circling the wagons on their pet agencies and preventing THEM from being more regulated. It wasn't an under-regulation problem, it was a WRONG regulation problem.

We regulated the banks but let FNMA and FHLMC create a massive bubble of terrible loans. This is directly attributable to the democrats and SPECIFICALLY Barney Frank who had a massive conflict of interest that we aren't allowed to talk about because he's gay.
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De Selby

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2010, 12:53:30 AM »
Again, no numbers for CRA loans (and there are such numbers) - just more allegation and speculation as to what the banks would have done in the alternative, as if figuring out that they could make billions by ripping off investors wouldn't have happened but for the CRA?!  

Let's try this as a thought exercise, since no data apparently are going to be offered to support this claim:

Imagine the CRA was never passed, and Fannie never guaranteed low-income loans.  How does that take away the banks' and brokers' incentives to sign as many loans as possible, and then sell them on wall street?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Monkeyleg

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2010, 01:18:37 AM »
Quote
...(and there are such numbers)...

Well, if there are such numbers, why don't you lay them out to back your case?

If any of you guys arguing with De Selby want to borrow my hammer for hitting yourself, let me know. It does feel better than going in circles.

De Selby

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Re: Lawmakers Look for Home Foreclosure "Quick Fix"
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2010, 04:15:49 AM »
Well, if there are such numbers, why don't you lay them out to back your case?

If any of you guys arguing with De Selby want to borrow my hammer for hitting yourself, let me know. It does feel better than going in circles.

Wait a sec here mate, I did post a study that analyzed rates of default in CRA-affected loans and banks.  I've seen no similar analysis to the contrary yet.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."