The Deadly Remington 700

[Ben]

I was reading today's Wall Street Journal in the hotel lobby this morning while waiting on some coworkers, when turning to the back page of one of the sections I found:

A full page ad by CNBC about a show they're doing on the deadly and unsafe Remington 700. Mentioned how it "just goes off" and that Remington has hidden the problem for 60 years. Sounds like a hit piece. I just got home and Googled it. Show airs 20OCT.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39418714/CNBC_PRESENTS_REMINGTON_UNDER_FIRE_A_CNBC_INVESTIGATION

[Monkeyleg]

The story smells already.

[erictank]

From the article: "Dozens of deaths, scores of injuries, and more than a thousand customer complaints have been linked to the alleged problem."

Over a time period of *SIXTY YEARS*, and sales of MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF RIFLES.  While I don't want to minimize the impact of each of those injuries and deaths to those most affected, let's be honest - we're apparently talking about annual death numbers countable on one hand, yearly injury numbers countable on the other, and enough yearly complaints that some might be forced to take off their shoes to total those up.

That doesn't particularly sound like an enormous customer-safety issue to me, to be honest.  Oh, I'll agree that if Remington actually did cover up a known mechanical or design defect, they should be held responsible for any injuries or deaths resulting from such - I have no problem with that notion.  Don't know that I'd trust the movers and shakers behind the linked report to get to the bottom of it, though - they certainly appear to have an ax to grind, and a very definite end in mind for their special.

[230RN]

I had heard of this problem several times in the past:

According to attorney Rich Miller (who has handled many cases against Remington), all Remington bolt-action rifles - not just the Model 700 - built since 1950 contain a trigger group known as the Walker Fire Control System. Miller says "At one time, and maybe still today, the Remington 700 was the world's best selling bolt action rifle. They knew from day one they had a fatal flaw. The downside is that the same mechanism can fail and that was recognized on the face of Walker's patent in 1950 that if you don't do this right the gun might fire on safety release."

See more at:

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700_2.htm

Saying "I had heard of this problem" does not make it true, but a quick Google search reveals a few references to it.

The Wall Street Journal has published a number of op-ed pieces which seemed to me to be fair-minded with respect to firearms.  I don't think they'd just blow something out of proportion the way a lotof the media would.  Dozens of deaths over sixty years, if true, is a lot for a commercial firearm defect, and is worthy of a bit of publicity, frankly.  Just my opinion.

Terry, 230RN

[Scout26]

One of the first things we teach in Hunter Safety Ed (and it's on the test as well), is that:

A Safety Is A Mechanical Device That Can, And Will, FAIL.  

The only "safety" that you can rely on is the 6 inch one between your ears.  


We point out that there's an ad for a basement waterproofing company running on the radio around here that starts by asking "How many sump pumps will fail? Answer: ALL OF THEM."

How many cars will breakdown: ALL OF THEM

How many computers will eventually crash:  ALL OF THEM

[seeker_two]

I wonder how many of those "defective" rifles had a trigger job done....

[280plus]

Right, never violate the 4 rules and guns firing at will becomes a non issue in terms of injury and death. One of the first things I learned was never trust the safety mechanism with your life.

That said, if Remmy knew there was a problem they should have taken steps to correct it.

[Ben]

The Wall Street Journal has published a number of op-ed pieces which seemed to me to be fair-minded with respect to firearms.  I don't think they'd just blow something out of proportion the way a lot of the media would. 

Just to clarify my first post, this was an advertisement by CNBC in the WSJ, not anything put out by the WSJ itself. The WSJ has always been a "go-to" printed media for me for fair-minded news.

[AJ Dual]

I wonder how many of those "defective" rifles had a trigger job done someone who pulled the trigger....

FIFY

[Tallpine]

The famous African hunting guide/writer Peter Capstick claimed that the closest he ever came to being killed was when a client's [Remington?] rifle fired upon safety release and the bullet just missed his neck.

[roo_ster]

IIRC, the main culprit was users never cleaning the FC group, leaving it with factory gunk, and letting it get gunkified over time.

FTR, I am a mauser-man.

[HankB]

The famous African hunting guide/writer Peter Capstick claimed that the closest he ever came to being killed was when a client's [Remington?] rifle fired upon safety release and the bullet just missed his neck.

I noticed each time I went on safari the guides watched closely how I handled my guns for a day or two before they were satisfied that I wasn't going to shoot someone by accident . . .

[MechAg94]

I wonder how many of those "defective" rifles had a trigger job done....

This was my first thought.  The Rem 700 a rifle that has been commonly customized by shooters and gunsmiths for years.  How do you narrow failures down to blaming just Remington?

[RaspberrySurprise]

With my Mosin the only thing I use for a mechanical "safety" is either leaving it unloaded and/or with the bolt open.

[T.O.M.]

This again?  When I first got into shooting back in the early 80's, I recall seeing something on television about the dangers of the Remington.  As said above, in some cases the rifle will fire when the safety is disengaged.  Didn't know this is still newsworthy almost 39 years later...

[280plus]

Turns out my custom 1911 is prone to slam fire. I recently had it do a 3 round burst on a new shooter. I THINK she kept the trigger mashed hard after the first shot. The original owner did tell me you should hold the hammer back when you release the slide. I gave the shooter kudos for hanging on to the thing. We were shooting ball. Sad part is the 3rd round probably launched off over the berm. Maybe not though because, suprisingly enough, it did not hit the skyline thingie. I couldn't believe it there was no hole in it. I looked and looked that's how much I couldn't believe it.

First time I ever saw the gun do that.  

[sanglant]

With my Mosin the only thing I use for a mechanical "safety" is either leaving it unloaded and/or with the bolt open.

i use the safety on my CZ bolt action every time i shoot it. it's holding the bolt together. i thought that was it's only job.

[230RN]

280plus:

Right, never violate the 4 rules and guns firing at will becomes a non issue in terms of injury and death. One of the first things I learned was never trust the safety mechanism with your life.

You just said exactly why I do not carry 1911s cocked-and-locked.  Now you go ahead and argue with all the folks who do, and who  loudly point out that carrying C&L (what is that, Condition 1?) is the way the gun was designed --even though, according to a retired military person who was in the MPs, the Army will not allow you to carry a 1911 C&L unless you were escorting a prisoner.

seeker_two said,

I wonder how many of those "defective" rifles had a trigger job done....

According to the "stuff" I've heard and read, it was an actual design problem with them coming out of the factory.

And you did not have to have your finger on the trigger for it to happen.

280plus, again:

Turns out my custom 1911 is prone to slam fire. I recently had it do a 3 round burst on a new shooter. I THINK she kept the trigger mashed hard after the first shot. The original owner did tell me you should hold the hammer back when you release the slide. I gave the shooter kudos for hanging on to the thing.

I had a brand-new RIA 1911 which would double-tap.  I quickly fixed it by burnishing some burrs off the disconnector, which was investment-cast and had burrs all around it on the parting line.  I also dressed down the three-fingered spring contact points with an aluminum oxide stone.  Cured the problem forever.

I loint:  when you buy a new auto, load only two rounds in it for a while.

That's what I loint.

Chris, althought the problem has been known for +/- 30 years, people are still selling used 700s to folks who might not have heard of the defect.

saglant, there's an old story about the difficulty of using the Mosin Safety which usually goes something like this:

Somebody complains to a Russian General that the safety on the Mosin is useless.  General answers:  "Safety?  What need safety for?  Gun is for killink.  Not need safety!"

I'm not signing this one so nobody will know who posted it.

[freakazoid]

Interesting that they never actually say what the problem is,  I remember reading about this some months ago. More actual info here, http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700_2.htm

According to an internal Remington memo, the actual sequence required to make a gun malfunction, or "trick," is to place the safety between the "safe" and "fire" positions, pull the trigger, and then place the safety in the "fire" position - which causes affected guns to fire. I can't make my model 700 fire in this manner, but it is allegedly possible.

Sounds like doing that would be improper gun handling to me. And why exactly would someone have the rifle pointed at someone when they are disengaging the safety!? Especially while KNOWING it is loaded! Do they not know the basic rules of safe firearm handling? 

[280plus]

I will admit to carrying my BHP C&L although I agree with you and it DOES rub me the wrong way to do so. All things considered it makes the most sense in terms of fast response to an immediate threat so I've come to terms with it.

Once I did find that the safety was not on for some reason. That was kind of spooky.

Therefore I hardly ever carry the BHP, it's too bulky for my purposes anyways. I keep it in the quick safe by the bed. I was pocket carrying a S&W 332 for quite a while but lately I've started carrying my P-32 instead and now I'm spoiled by it and don't really want to go back to the bulkier wheel gun.  

 

The 1911 is a top quality custom job so I have to imagine any factory quirks and all the honing and stoning have been dealt with. I assume its propensity for this is inherent in the accurizing of the trigger set. I personally don't understand them well enough to get in there and start fiddling and I'm not sure I know anybody I trust to do so. The original customizer was quite reknown so I feel no qualification to go in there and mess with his setup. And he's dead now too so we won't be talking to him. Alton Dinan III. The pistol range at Blue trails in Wallingford, Ct is named after him. It's a real sweet shooter. I was in the right place at the right time and with money.    

I've never had if fire by just closing the slide and forgetting to hold the hammer back (which I've done) but that little burst was a real eye opener.  

My intent is to get back out there and see if I can recreate the situation myself but I haven't done so yet. The two round rule sounds like a good one.

[GigaBuist]

I find it a little hard to believe that CNBC, or any news organization, has somebody on the payroll with more detailed knowledge on any particular firearm than the collective hive found on internet gun boards.

[280plus]

They have to come up with news somehow... 

[Marnoot]

Sounds like doing that would be improper gun handling to me. And why exactly would someone have the rifle pointed at someone when they are disengaging the safety!? Especially while KNOWING it is loaded! Do they not know the basic rules of safe firearm handling? 

This. Ever since I noticed the *click* of the firing pin "firing" when disengaging the safety on my (empty at the time) CZ .22 rifle (with a trigger job) after it had quite a bump, I've consider disengaging the safety to have the potential to equal pulling the trigger as to where I have the gun pointing, with any firearm. If I'm not pointing downrange, the safety doesn't come off.

[Perd Hapley]

280plus:

Right, never violate the 4 rules and guns firing at will becomes a non issue in terms of injury and death. One of the first things I learned was never trust the safety mechanism with your life.

You just said exactly why I do not carry 1911s cocked-and-locked.

How does C&L carry of a 1911 violate the four rules, or put undue trust in a safety mechanism? If it did, wouldn't that be true of all sidearms? 

[280plus]

I believe he's referring to my referring to not never ever trusting the safety. Carrying C&L implies implicit trust in the safety.