The Deadly Remington 700

[HeroHog]

I like a hammer-block safety when carrying an automatic with a hammer that can be thumb cocked and is double action like my Model 59 S&W. I would rather it didn't de-cock the hammer when it was engaged though. Because of it's design, I carry it hammer down, safety on, one in the chamber so all I have to do is draw, thumb the safety and pull the trigger when the SHTF.

Having a rifle that was "prone" to discharging when taking off the safety would have me never using the safety but instead leaving the bolt slightly open until I was going to make a shot, THEN I would close the bolt and fire.

[doczinn]

Can I trust multiple safeties though? The chain of events that would lead to a 1911 firing without the safety disengaged, the grip squeezed and the trigger pulled at the same time is implausible to say the least.

[Perd Hapley]

Carrying C&L implies implicit trust in the safety.

No, not at all. Not unless you carry with your finger on the trigger. Or maybe Mexican carry, with the grip safety pinned. But with a holster that covers the trigger...

If the manual safety fails on a Beretta 92 or a Sig or a 1911, the trigger still has to be pulled.

[Waitone]

I've been suspicious of our government especially since our president and his administration refuses to allow Korean surplus M1's and M1 carbines into the US because they present a danger.  Coming after the same government publishes a list of suspects likely to engage in anti-government actions, nefarious characters like militia members, former military types, and so forth.  Then I read this promo.  Does anyone draw any significance to the fact that the Remington 700 is used as a military sniper device?  Don't know about you but I'm picking up on a pattern of action. 

[seeker_two]

I believe he's referring to my referring to not never ever trusting the safety. Carrying C&L implies implicit trust in the safety.

Which is why I carry 1911-style guns in Condition 2....hammer can't fall if it's already down...

[thebaldguy]

I remember seeing the problem with the 700s back in the 90's on a news show. People would load the rifle, close the bolt, move the safety to the safe position, and the rifle would discharge. I don't know how common this was, but I think Remington did a recall.

This is proof that you should always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. My semi-auto pistols have decockers, but I make sure the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.  

[sanglant]

saglant, there's an old story about the difficulty of using the Mosin Safety which usually goes something like this:

Somebody complains to a Russian General that the safety on the Mosin is useless.  General answers:  "Safety?  What need safety for?  Gun is for killink.  Not need safety!"

sorry man, wires got crossed somewhere down the line. i was saying i use the safety to hold the bolt together, not to prevent the trigger moving back.

edit: dropped a "to prevent" and a "moving"

[Jim147]

I wonder if they are counting the 721 and 722 in this as they are all 7xx's?

My 722 is on the recall list but I'm not letting anyone else touch such a fine shooter. I just stay extra careful with it.

jim

[De Selby]

Okay folks, whether we trust the safety or not, a firearm should darn well function as advertised and intended.  Any company that knowingly manufactures a firearm with a defective safety ought to pay to fix it, period.  It's beyond unreasonable to demand any less.

[Perd Hapley]

Let's try this again.

280plus:

Right, never violate the 4 rules and guns firing at will becomes a non issue in terms of injury and death. One of the first things I learned was never trust the safety mechanism with your life.

You just said exactly why I do not carry 1911s cocked-and-locked.

How does C&L carry of a 1911 put undue trust in a safety mechanism? If it did, wouldn't that be true of all sidearms? 

[De Selby]

Let's try this again.
You just said exactly why I do not carry 1911s cocked-and-locked.

How does C&L carry of a 1911 put undue trust in a safety mechanism? If it did, wouldn't that be true of all sidearms? 

If you consider the sear a safety mechanism, I guess, in that it prevents the hammer from falling without pressure on the trigger?

[Perd Hapley]

Thank you. 

[seeker_two]

Let's try this again.
You just said exactly why I do not carry 1911s cocked-and-locked.

How does C&L carry of a 1911 put undue trust in a safety mechanism? If it did, wouldn't that be true of all sidearms? 

Try carrying a SAA cocked all day and tell us how that works for you....

[280plus]

No, not at all. Not unless you carry with your finger on the trigger. Or maybe Mexican carry, with the grip safety pinned. But with a holster that covers the trigger...

If the manual safety fails on a Beretta 92 or a Sig or a 1911, the trigger still has to be pulled.

In my case my BHP has no grip safety. I get the part about the grip safety on the 1911 it does add redundancy. Still when it was first ingrained in you as a wee pup to never trust the safety it's hard to come to terms with doing otherwise. Meanwhile, I'm not familiar with any of these inferior automatics of which you speak. Their are ony two automatic handguns that are worth their salt in this world, that is the Colt 1911A and the BHP. My motto is, "Why bother arguing .45 vs 9mm? Just get both!"  

 

[280plus]

Again, if you call it a "safety" I immediately don't trust it. I'm more inclined to think in terms of just plain old dropping the thing. I'm not real up on all the different designs. All I know is I look at both my BHP and my 1911s and feel that IF I were to drop them directly on the hammer on a hard surface in "Cond 1", regardless of how remote, there is a chance that they could go off. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have come to terms with this anyways and when I DO carry my BHP, it's C&L. I tend to check the safety by feel periodically because to this day I do not know how it came to be off that one time. Clothes snag maybe? Don't know.  

[Jamisjockey]

Which is why I carry 1911-style guns in Condition 2....hammer can't fall if it's already down...

Till your finger or thumb slips.  All it takes is once.

Also, how do you get that into action quickly? 
Maybe its my little hands, but I can't reach the hammer on most modern autos without changing my grip. 

Okay folks, whether we trust the safety or not, a firearm should darn well function as advertised and intended.  Any company that knowingly manufactures a firearm with a defective safety ought to pay to fix it, period.  It's beyond unreasonable to demand any less.

Agreed.  But, the model 700 is also one of the most popular and highly modified hunting rifles around.  Alot of people have the trigge reworked to make the pull lighter and crisper.  I'd be real curious of the condition of the rifles that were involved in accidents.

Oh, and someone was wondering if this was a hit piece.
IMHO, if it were a hit piece, they'd be after something scarier, like AR15's or AK47's.

[280plus]

They showed it twice in a row last night.

[280plus]

The friggin BHP instructions tell you to thumb the hammer down on a live round, set the safety and carry in that condition. So you'd have to release the safety AND cock the hammer to fire. That was the easy part. The tough part is lowering the hammer on the live round trick. I practiced this at the range. Yup, I set 'er off with a thumb slip alright. NEVER TRIED THAT AGAIN! 

[seeker_two]

Till your finger or thumb slips.  All it takes is once.

Practice (esp. dry-fire practice) makes perfect....after a lifetime shooting SA revolvers & SA autos, I've never had that problem....

...working a P7 without a ND (none with live ammo, thank God)...that I have problems with....so I don't own one....

Also, how do you get that into action quickly? 
Maybe its my little hands, but I can't reach the hammer on most modern autos without changing my grip. 

Again, practice makes perfect....and, if a BG is close enough that you can't thumb-cock, then he's too close to draw anyway....go to hand-to-hand and get some distance....

[280plus]

Draw and wop him upside the head with the gun, that'll slow him down. 

No, I've done Tueller drills. It does take practice. The thought for slow guys like me + 2 seconds) is to begin moving diagonally away from the threat as it approaches and hopefully gain some time for the draw. It took me a long time to completely break the draw / extend habit and learn to shoot from retention.

[De Selby]

Agreed.  But, the model 700 is also one of the most popular and highly modified hunting rifles around.  Alot of people have the trigge reworked to make the pull lighter and crisper.  I'd be real curious of the condition of the rifles that were involved in accidents.

Oh, and someone was wondering if this was a hit piece.
IMHO, if it were a hit piece, they'd be after something scarier, like AR15's or AK47's.

Yeah, that's definitely something to check.  Trigger jobs and such would play a role in most of the accidents, I'd think.  I recall seeing a diagram or workup on THR (or somewhere) explaining how the 700 mechanism could be made to fire without pulling the trigger though...seems to be more to this issue than simple anti-gun sentiment or sue-happy customers, at least.

I'd like to see one of the plaintiffs come up with some technical explanations and numbers on accidents. 

[HankB]

Well, I watched the show . . . in each case where a person was injured/killed by a "malfunction" the rifle was pointed where it shouldn't have been. (One guy shot his own foot off! Who in their right mind points a loaded rifle at their own foot when loading/unloading/fiddling with it? It's not just unsafe, it's awkward.)

The incidents mentioned just reinforced my own policy of never allowing the firearm to point at something I'm not willing to destroy. (That's one reason I don't do dry fire practice in my home - without a basement, I don't have a solid wall to use as a backstop, and any bullet I discharge is going to penetrate walls and follow a potentially dangerous trajectory.)

On the other hand, there was a fair amount of information presented that seemed to be the sort of thing that makes you take notice and go "Hmmmm . . . ?"  Unless they were faked, the videos of M700s going off in the hands of police/military shooters without the trigger being pulled looked pretty damning.

My own take is that yes, there could be a trigger/safety malfunction, but its going to be very rare . . . sort of like "The Lock" self-actuating on recent S&W revolvers. In each case, it's the sort of thing the manufacturer could have and should have have fixed, but didn't.

[Jamisjockey]

Practice (esp. dry-fire practice) makes perfect....after a lifetime shooting SA revolvers & SA autos, I've never had that problem....

...working a P7 without a ND (none with live ammo, thank God)...that I have problems with....so I don't own one....

Again, practice makes perfect....and, if a BG is close enough that you can't thumb-cock, then he's too close to draw anyway....go to hand-to-hand and get some distance....

I disagree.  I've practiced with a water gun and a willing neighbor.  I was able to keep him from overwhelming me (bigger guy who trained MMA), draw and shoot (squirt) him in the chest from retention.  I also let him take me down and was able to draw and point blank squrit him in the side of the face.  The takedown knocked the wind out of me, too.

[freakazoid]

Since we are on the subject of safeties, I've never understood the whole Glock Safe Action thing. What would the difference be if that wasn't on them? Seems to me there wouldn't be.

[Perd Hapley]

In my case my BHP has no grip safety. I get the part about the grip safety on the 1911 it does add redundancy. Still when it was first ingrained in you as a wee pup to never trust the safety it's hard to come to terms with doing otherwise.

The grip safety isn't the point. The point is, when you say that a person is "trusting the safety," you're saying that they feel free to point their gun at people carelessly, or pull the trigger carelessly, because they trust the safety to keep the gun from firing. Cocked and locked carry isn't about that.

Again, if you call it a "safety" I immediately don't trust it. I'm more inclined to think in terms of just plain old dropping the thing. I'm not real up on all the different designs. All I know is I look at both my BHP and my 1911s and feel that IF I were to drop them directly on the hammer on a hard surface in "Cond 1", regardless of how remote, there is a chance that they could go off. Maybe I'm wrong. But I have come to terms with this anyways and when I DO carry my BHP, it's C&L. I tend to check the safety by feel periodically because to this day I do not know how it came to be off that one time. Clothes snag maybe? Don't know. 

I definitely understand that. I once had an Uncle Mike's kydex holster that disengaged the safety every time I holstered my 1911. That was scary.

Try carrying a SAA cocked all day and tell us how that works for you....

Touche.