Author Topic: Another liberal from KOS gets it  (Read 6612 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2010, 01:08:31 AM »
Harrison Bergeron, watch out that some people will "re-interpet" what you say to sideswipe your arguments.  I have found this to be a consistent problem.  One of the warning signs is when they say, "So, you're saying that..." to take your arguments to a different plane.  

So perhaps you would like to explain how the Republican Party puts a premium on religion, and then explain how that is a bad thing.

I've seen this commentary before, and I don't have much doubt about what HB is trying to say. He falsely believes that the Republican planks on various social issues are religiously motivated. He probably also believes that religious motives are not an appropriate basis for legislation. These myths are widely believed, and are the usual explanation for comments like HB's. So, is it possible I'm misinterpreting what he has to say? Yes, anything can be misinterpreted. It doesn't imply any kind of sideswiping.  ;/
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White Horseradish

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2010, 07:44:33 AM »
Republicans seem to feel that Government causes more problems than it fixes.
You wouldn't know it by their actions...
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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Strings

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2010, 08:30:21 AM »
>So perhaps you would like to explain how the Republican Party puts a premium on religion<

I'm gonna give my take on this one.

Not going to say that the party itself puts any kind of premium on religion. However, I've noticed that more Republican candidates mention their being a "God fearing person" than Democrats.

I've also noticed that those who go out of their way to wave their "Christian cred" tend to not HAVE actual "Christian cred".

As an example of such: for all that he talks about his faith, I've never known Fistful to talk about his being Christian to promote himself as being trustworthy. He shows his character by his actions. However, one of the worst pedophiles I've known had more pictures of Jesus on his walls than the Vatican...

Does this prove anything? Not really. But one REALLY good example of someone at the national level who seems to "push" their faith as indicating something is Romney: anybody planning on voting for him?
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Ron

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2010, 08:58:39 AM »
The discussion about liberals, democrats, conservatives, republicans was proceeding along nicely with no references to religion or Jesus until a couple folks with antithapy toward religion decided to interject the subject into the discussion.

Who has the agenda?

Beliefs and philosophy inform and determine ones political leanings. The Republicans without the "religious right" would quickly become a permanent minority party. Much of the remaining "protestant work ethic" and "rugged individualism" can be found in religious conservative communities across the country. You will find them to be more skeptical of government planners of Utopia and to be proponents of local solutions to problems  vs looking to far away bureaucracies. Flyover country should be a natural ally to a more libertarian style of governance.

Alienate them and you'll continue get Barak Obama and his ilk as president.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Strings

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2010, 09:29:03 AM »
Um, maybe you missed something in what I said?

Not saying that being religious should be a bad thing. Not even saying that the "religious right" is a bad thing.

Pointing out an example (Romney) of someone who seems to promote their faith as some kind of indicator for what they will do as a bad thing. Possibly even as a negative indicator.

Let me pick on Fistful for a bit more. Do you honestly think he would mention his faith as a selling point were he campaigning for office? Yet he's one of the most faithful Christians I can think of...

Or, put another way: too many talk the talk, not enough walk the walk...
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

RevDisk

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2010, 11:09:18 AM »
AJ nailed it.  To a conservative, the extent of banning is generally confined to "we don't want you to kill human beings, and we don't want you to steal money from citizens to pay for unconstitutional nonsense"  To liberal, there is no limit on what can be banned or controlled as long as you tell people that it's for their own good, and they are just backward if they don't see you know what's best for them.

Well, I can't speak for conservatives, but there is wide spread belief among the under 30 crowd that the Republicans are hypocrites.  That they hate/dislike gays, but get caught having clandestine gay affairs.  That they push the war on drugs, but use drugs themselves.  That they preach small government or responsibility, but push through agencies like DHS.  That they gripe about welfare, but love corporate welfare. 

All of these perceptions range from likely true to very true.  Whether they are true or not is actually largely immaterial.  People believe it, and perception defines reality.  True, the Dems generally get caught doing the same thing, but they rarely claim to the contrary.  So it's a question of being stabbed in the front or in the back.  People like being stabbed in the front.  It's a touch more honest. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2010, 01:33:36 PM »
Quote
Well, I can't speak for conservatives, but there is wide spread belief among the under 30 crowd that the Republicans are hypocrites.  That they hate/dislike gays, but get caught having clandestine gay affairs.  That they push the war on drugs, but use drugs themselves.  That they preach small government or responsibility, but push through agencies like DHS.  That they gripe about welfare, but love corporate welfare.  

All of these perceptions range from likely true to very true.  Whether they are true or not is actually largely immaterial.  People believe it, and perception defines reality.  True, the Dems generally get caught doing the same thing, but they rarely claim to the contrary.  So it's a question of being stabbed in the front or in the back.  People like being stabbed in the front.  It's a touch more honest.  

I don't like wading into discussions about religion because they invariably get locked.

That said, is it better to aspire to be a good Christian (or Jew, or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim) and falter than to not try at all? Yes, there are devout Christians who do all of the things that you say. If they're true to their religious beliefs, they'll try to redeem themselves and ask for forgiveness. By stressing their religion, they connect with a large group of voters, but they also set themselves up for public humiliation, as their every step will be scrutinized.

It's much easier to be a Bill Clinton and be an amoral lech during the week, then walk into church on Sunday dodging lightening bolts.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2010, 01:41:22 PM »
I don't think Revdisk's point was about religion.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2010, 02:52:01 PM »
But one REALLY good example of someone at the national level who seems to "push" their faith as indicating something is Romney: anybody planning on voting for him?

If he's the candidate in 2012, I'll probably vote for him. But I would like to see some examples of what you mean. I haven't followed him that closely, so I've probably missed a lot.

I suspect he talks more about religion than others, because he's asked about it more often (being Mormon). And, if he wants the White House, he really does need to "prove" his Christianity to a lot of people who think he's in a pseudo-Christian cult, or who get their ideas about Mormonism from watching Big Love. Also, he is somewhat of a volunteer clergyman, from what I understand, so he's just a religious guy. That's gonna come out when he speaks, isn't it?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0809/p01s01-uspo.html
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 02:55:31 PM by Fistful »
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2010, 03:20:21 PM »
No, it wasn't about religion per se, but brushed by it. ;) Strings post was more about religion.

If the under 30 crowd wants to consider hypocrisy, why don't they take a look at Obama? Has there even been such a wide chasm between campaign rhetoric and actions in office?

Perd Hapley

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2010, 09:18:23 PM »
If the under 30 crowd wants to consider hypocrisy, why don't they take a look at Obama? Has there even been such a wide chasm between campaign rhetoric and actions in office?

See, that's part of the Change he promised. He Changed his mind. Changed it a lot.  =)
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RevDisk

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2010, 11:19:09 PM »

If the under 30 crowd wants to consider hypocrisy, why don't they take a look at Obama? Has there even been such a wide chasm between campaign rhetoric and actions in office?

Honestly, a lot are.  But they wanted to believe Obama, because he promised to be different than our current corrupt system.  Belief dies hard.  Give it time. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Ron

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Re: Another liberal from KOS gets it
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2010, 10:18:30 AM »
Sorry, my above post was worded a little stronger than it probably needed to be to make my point.

The continual hyperventilating about the big bad religious right at other forums, and that occasionally pops up here, tries my patience.    
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.