Author Topic: A new twist on bans...  (Read 2349 times)

280plus

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A new twist on bans...
« on: March 02, 2006, 02:50:33 PM »
NAPLES, Florida (AP) -- If Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan has his way, a new town being built in Florida will be governed according to strict Roman Catholic principles, with no place to get an abortion, pornography or birth control.

The pizza magnate is bankrolling the project with at least $250 million and calls it "God's will."

Civil libertarians say the plan is unconstitutional and are threatening to sue.

The town of Ave Maria is being constructed around Ave Maria University, the first Catholic university to be built in the United States in about 40 years. Both are set to open next year about 25 miles east of Naples in southwestern Florida.

The town and the university, developed in partnership with the Barron Collier Co., an agricultural and real estate business, will be set on 5,000 acres with a European-inspired town center, a massive church and what planners call the largest crucifix in the nation, at nearly 65 feet tall. Monaghan envisions 11,000 homes and 20,000 residents.

During a speech last year at a Catholic men's gathering in Boston, Monaghan said that in his community, stores will not sell pornographic magazines, pharmacies will not carry condoms or birth control pills, and cable television will have no X-rated channels.

Homebuyers in Ave Maria will own their property outright. But Monaghan and Barron Collier will control all commercial real estate in the town, meaning they could insert provisions in leases to restrict the sale of certain items.

"I believe all of history is just one big battle between good and evil. I don't want to be on the sidelines," Monaghan, who sold Domino's Pizza in 1998 to devote himself to doing good works, said in a recent Newsweek interview.

Robert Falls, a spokesman for the project, said Tuesday that attorneys are still reviewing the legal issues and that Monaghan had no comment in the meantime.

"If they attempt to do what he apparently wants to do, the people of Naples and Collier County, Florida, are in for a whole series of legal and constitutional problems and a lot of litigation indefinitely into the future," warned Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist said it will be up to the courts to decide the legalities of the plan. "The community has the right to provide a wholesome environment," he said. "If someone disagrees, they have the right to go to court and present facts before a judge."

Gov. Jeb Bush, at the site's groundbreaking earlier this month, lauded the development as a new kind of town where faith and freedom will merge to create a community of like-minded citizens. Bush, a convert to Catholicism, did not speak specifically to the proposed restrictions.

"While the governor does not personally believe in abortion or pornography, the town, and any restrictions they may place on businesses choosing to locate there, must comply with the laws and constitution of the state and federal governments," Russell Schweiss, a spokesman for the governor, said Tuesday.

Frances Kissling, president of the liberal Washington-based Catholics for a Free Choice, likened Monaghan's concept to Islamic fundamentalism.

"This is un-American," Kissling said. "I don't think in a democratic society you can have a legally organized township that will seek to have any kind of public service whatsoever and try to restrict the constitutional rights of citizens."
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Tallpine

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A new twist on bans...
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 03:15:39 PM »
Well, that IS sort of a free-market approach ... if people want to buy into their own perceived version of utopia and live there, it doesn't bother me.

OTOH, why shouldn't someone or some group also be able to start a community where drugs, pornography, and full auto weapons are sold at the corner drugstore...?  Wink
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 03:21:14 PM »
I don't understand the problem with this.If all the money comes from private sources & tax dollars were to only flow out of the town what would cause an issue?

I realize that nothing in that article mentions money from the .gov but still,tax revenue is the only sticking point that I can think of.Am I missing something?

RevDisk

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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2006, 04:21:19 PM »
It's legal to not buy porn, not take birth control, and not get an abortion.  It's illegal for the govt (federal, state or local) to forbid one from buying porn, birth control or an abortion (currently).  Note, I'm not discussing the morality or theoretical legality of abortion, I'm just saying it's currently a legal activity.

If the moral code of Pizzatown is voluntary, tis legal.   Trying to enforce such a moral code would indeed be illegal.   That is, if the Inquisition finds out that one purchases porn, birth control or an abortion and then punishes (Kicking out of town?  Fines?) in a nonvoluntary manner, that's very illegal.  Plus we get into the lovely grounds of housing discrimination.  I'm pretty sure discriminating on the basis of religion in selling property or houses is illegal.


In short, if he says the Catholic lifestyle is manditory and will be enforced, it's very ilegal.  If he merely asks or encourages the Catholic lifestyle in a voluntary manner, that's his business.  An amusing spin would be to see what people's reactions would be to an Islamic community setting up manditory sharia (Islamic law) over a small town.  How quickly would people be screaming their heads off?   (Rightly so.)
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charby

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A new twist on bans...
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2006, 06:54:16 AM »
http://maharishivediccity.net/

we already got on in Iowa, its not Catholic but its freaking weird.
 
Seems like we have a lot of Communes in this state.

C
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brimic

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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2006, 07:05:21 AM »
Sounds good to me.

If people don't want to live in the community about to be set up, people have the choice not to move there. It sounds like building covenants and local ordinances that are put up in any town- can't have a refridgerator or car up on blocks in the front yards, grass has to be mowed on a regular basis etc to keep the bad elements out.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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RevDisk

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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2006, 06:47:12 PM »
Quote from: brimic
Sounds good to me.

If people don't want to live in the community about to be set up, people have the choice not to move there. It sounds like building covenants and local ordinances that are put up in any town- can't have a refridgerator or car up on blocks in the front yards, grass has to be mowed on a regular basis etc to keep the bad elements out.
Yes, because govt sanctioned restrictions on private legal behavior is always a good thing, right?  I mean, it's voluntary to live here.  If you don't like it, you can move to Canada or North Korea, or whatnot.  

Sigh
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2006, 06:51:12 PM »
hehehe....  here comes the return of the homeowners association nazi thread

Telperion

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2006, 06:54:12 PM »
Quote
During a speech last year at a Catholic men's gathering in Boston, Monaghan said that in his community, stores will not sell pornographic magazines, pharmacies will not carry condoms or birth control pills, and cable television will have no X-rated channels.
I find it amusing to watch such people pretend the Internet, the telephone, and automobiles do not exist.  Sounds like this guy was born a couple of centuries too late.

garyk/nm

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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2006, 07:17:32 PM »
Quote
Homebuyers in Ave Maria will own their property outright. But Monaghan and Barron Collier will control all commercial real estate in the town, meaning they could insert provisions in leases to restrict the sale of certain items.
OK, all you rabid property rights proponents, 'splain to me exactly how this is any different from employers disallowing firearms on their property? If the property owner wishes to include restrictions in leases, how is that unconstitutional?
Sounds to me like their legal team did their homework.

brimic

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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2006, 02:53:27 PM »
Quote
Yes, because govt sanctioned restrictions on private legal behavior is always a good thing, right?  I mean, it's voluntary to live here.  If you don't like it, you can move to Canada or North Korea, or whatnot.
Or DC or Chicago or NYC......

It will be fun just to watch the lefties get all worked up over one little burg when some of the biggest population centers in the country that are filled with their kind have no problems abridging rights.


Quote
OK, all you rabid property rights proponents, 'splain to me exactly how this is any different from employers disallowing firearms on their property? If the property owner wishes to include restrictions in leases, how is that unconstitutional?
Sounds to me like their legal team did their homework.
Or other things that I want to do in the privacy of my own home for that matter such as interior remodeling or even installing a few electrical receptacles for that matter.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2006, 03:19:14 PM »
Quote
Yes, because govt sanctioned restrictions on private legal behavior is always a good thing, right?  I mean, it's voluntary to live here.  If you don't like it, you can move to Canada or North Korea, or whatnot.
Right, except the huge difference here is that we arent talking about the government, we are talking about an individual making the rules on property that he owns, that is a pretty big difference.

Justin

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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2006, 04:15:14 PM »
Hey, Monaghan, Clearwater Florida called.  They want their shtick back.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2006, 06:51:47 PM »
Proving yet again that the ACLU cares more about advancing leftist politics than supporting our civil liberties...

RevDisk

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2006, 06:58:15 PM »
Quote from: c_yeager
Right, except the huge difference here is that we arent talking about the government, we are talking about an individual making the rules on property that he owns, that is a pretty big difference.
Indeed.  However, it sounds like he wishes this to be codified as a town.  ie, local govt.  As far as I know, a local govt is not "private property".  If he tried to ban legal activities via township ordinances or whatnot, that's where it gets interesting.   What's he gonna do, refuse to sell ownership of any property within town limits and only allow renting?   I somehow don't see that flying.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Antibubba

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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2006, 03:14:47 PM »
Quote
Homebuyers in Ave Maria will own their property outright.  But Monaghan and Barron Collier will control all commercial real estate in the town, meaning they could insert provisions in leases to restrict the sale of certain items.
So, a property-owning resident could be prohibited from doing business out of their own property?  

Actually, I really look forward to seeing how this works out; I can just see the free-enterprise opportunities arise------

SCENE: The boiler room of "Hail Mary" High School.

"Pssst!  O'Shaunessey!  You down here?  O'Shaunessey?  Where in Limbo is he?"

(low voice)"Right behind you, altar boy."

"AAAAAAAHH!  Pope's nuts, man!  You trying to scare me to death?"

"Hey, you could've been one of the Sisters, man-can't be too careful."

"Yeah, all right.  You got the stuff?"

"Right here, altar boy."
(Pulls out small paper bag)

"Stop calling me that. (Starts going through bag) "Hey, what're you trying to pull here?  I said 'Ribbed'.  'Ribbed'!  What in holy heck are these? 'Cool Mint'?  'Glow-In-The-Dark'?  I said I needed the ribbed!"

"Hey, they were all out-seems there's a huge "film" festival in Gomorrah Beach this week."

"But what about HER pleasure?"

"Take it or leave it, altar boy.  I got plenty others who'll buy this stuff."

"All right, all right!  Heres your forty."

"The price is fifty."

"Whattheheck!  You gettin' greedy?  Going all mortal sin on me?"

"ME?  Look who's preaching, Lust-boy!  The stuff's harder to get in-they're searching everyone who come into town.  Father Monroe's in charge-and you know what his 'pat downs' are like!"
(Both boys shudder)

"All right all right, fifty!  Just give it to me."

(At the top of the stairway, a door is heard to slam.  Hurried footsteps follow)

"Holy Mother!  It's the Sin Squad!  That's it-they're gonna crucify us!!" (Flashlight beams start sweeping the distant stairwell)

"Get to the boiler-if they catch me with this 'Maxim' magazine they'll do worse than kill me."

"You got a 'Maxim'?  Is it the one with Carmen Electra on the front?"

"NOT NOW, altar boy-just hide!  If you get me out of this out of this, I'll get you a 'Playboy', you got that?  Two 'Playboys', and a 'Penthouse'!  But you gotta hide me!"


............
***********************************************************


Cheesy

(with apologies to all the former altar boys out there)
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Strings

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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2006, 11:57:20 AM »
well, it depends on what they try doing, really. From the article, it says that commercial property will be leased, and they plan on putting i  arequirement that businesses not provide those items (pornography, contrceptives, abortions). That's fine, far as I can see. However, should they try keeping people from purchasing such elsewhere, or using such in their own homes (with the exceptoin of abortion), then there would be problems...

XLMiguel

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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2006, 05:04:57 PM »
To each their own, I guess.  There's a reason I won't buy Domino's pizza (aside from the fact that it's a pretty mediocre product).  Mr. Monahan is, of course, entitled to his opinions, but I'll be damned if I'll contribute to his stilted view of the world, and I certainly wouldn't want to live in a place like that.  Nannyism by any other name . . .